55 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

@Dakota

I proposed the streak mechanics basically to make ATMs somewhat useful at long range.

For them to be not completely useless at long range with the LRM system, I imagine that they have to fly fast and have small spread (remember they they have low number of missiles per shot). I can't think of how much would be enough.

Or just doing what RestosIII has said (variable speed). Maybe also add variable spread for good measure (the missiles tightened as they fly farther).

Variable damage, speed, and spread with the LRM behavior. Would that be good?

Edited by Hit the Deck, 22 March 2017 - 05:52 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Hit the Deck, on 22 March 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

@Dakota

I proposed the streak mechanics basically to make ATMs somewhat useful at long range.

For them to be not completely useless at long range with the LRM system, I imagine that they have to fly fast and have small spread (remember they they have low number of missiles per shot). I can't think of how much would be enough.

Or just doing what RestosIII has said (variable speed). Maybe also add variable spread for good measure (the missiles tightened as they fly farther).

Variable damage, speed, and spread with the LRM behavior. Would that be good?

I don't really see the streak mechanic as really helping with long range, it'll also likely cause the missiles to run into low lying obstacles when going after legs at long range since they would fly down instead of straight forward.

Really all you need to make LRM or ATMs good at long range is more velocity on the missiles. Velocity is what makes any other weapon good at long range, LRMs would be pretty good weapons systems with double their current base velocity.

LRM10-LRM15 spread is what I'm sticking by, at least in the case of the ATM12, which is right inbetween those two. Could do LRM10 for ATM12 and ATM9 and LRM5 spread for ATM6 and ATM3 if you want more exact specifications.

[TELEFORCE]

ATMs should get LRM mechanics with a flat trajectory. They cannot make use of indirect fire in canon. The missiles should either be launched in a stream like Clan LRMs or in a group like IS LRMs, not sure which would be more appropriate. They actually don't seek bones and they should work like LRMs. Don't forget about the free Artemis IV FCS the ATM launcher comes with.

The bone-seeking ATMs are the iATMs the Society hid from the Warrior Castes while developing the ATMs. They work exactly like Streak launchers and can be fired indirectly. And they can also fire more devious ammunition types. Streak Inferno iATM-12 anyone?

[RestosIII]

Hit the Deck, on 22 March 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

Variable damage, speed, and spread with the LRM behavior. Would that be good?

As long as they don't have indirect fire, that combo would make ATMs a must-hqve for my mechs with missile hardpoints. The Mad Dog will rise again!

[Hit the Deck]

Dakota1000, on 22 March 2017 - 06:04 AM, said:

...
Really all you need to make LRM or ATMs good at long range is more velocity on the missiles....

That's of course true.

ATMs as 320m/s "LRMs" without indirect LOS capability?

TELEFORCE, on 22 March 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:

ATMs should get LRM mechanics with a flat trajectory. They cannot make use of indirect fire in canon. The missiles should either be launched in a stream like Clan LRMs or in a group like IS LRMs, not sure which would be more appropriate. They actually don't seek bones and they should work like LRMs. Don't forget about the free Artemis IV FCS the ATM launcher comes with.

The bone-seeking ATMs are the iATMs the Society hid from the Warrior Castes while developing the ATMs. They work exactly like Streak launchers and can be fired indirectly. And they can also fire more devious ammunition types. Streak Inferno iATM-12 anyone?

That's a nice piece of lore.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 22 March 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

320 m/s is just 5 m/s under half of what speed the AC20 flies. It could be a good spot for ATMs, LRMs could end up with something like 450-500 m/s.

By doing this LRMs end up as a powerful long range missile system that they should be, ATMs work decently at mid range, devastate up close, and provide some damage at long range, and SRMs remain a low tonnage short range weapon.

This is all assuming PGI would look to actually balance out these weapon types in such a situation and that people wouldn't have a meltdown about "LRMpocalypse" the moment that LRMs become just as viable as any direct fire system.

[Hit the Deck]

Dakota1000, on 22 March 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

320 m/s is just 5 m/s under half of what speed the AC20 flies. It could be a good spot for ATMs, LRMs could end up with something like 450-500 m/s.

By doing this LRMs end up as a powerful long range missile system that they should be, ATMs work decently at mid range, devastate up close, and provide some damage at long range, and SRMs remain a low tonnage short range weapon.

This is all assuming PGI would look to actually balance out these weapon types in such a situation and that people wouldn't have a meltdown about "LRMpocalypse" the moment that LRMs become just as viable as any direct fire system.

That sounds pretty decent.

It could also make (L)AMS more important so more people would bring them.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 22 March 2017 - 06:40 AM.

[Pyed]

On trajectory--

I have the idea in my head that it would be pretty neat if ATMs were ground-skimming with targeting beyond LOS OK.

In practice:
On launch they climb to about 20m, just over the height of the tallest mechs so they can skim over friendlies (and untargeted enemies), and attempt to stay at that height.
The turning radius would be limited so they'd work great over rolling terrain like Polar or Plexus but wouldn't be able to clear buildings or up cliffs big enough to hide an Atlas. On say Tourmaline they'd generally do great but some of the crystal ridges would stop them. On canyon they'd be great for firing down levels but not up, but then if they flew off a cliff the target was hugging they might not be able to curve down quickly enough to hit. On HPG they'd work going up levels if you aligned the ramps for it, but otherwise no.

So, yeah. This kind of thing.

Probably use spread mechanics similar to LRMs since they wouldn't have a streak-like turning radius.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 22 March 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

7 tons for 12 damage at long range? This thing will not replace CLRMs. In fact, it will be waste of ammo to use it beyond mid range. I'd treat it as basically a guided MRM for Clans.

Which is generally what they were most useful for even in TT, short/mid range.

[Hit the Deck]

Pyed, on 22 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

On trajectory--

I have the idea in my head that it would be pretty neat if ATMs were ground-skimming with targeting beyond LOS OK.
....

Nothing personal but that would be weird and I doubt that would even cross PGI's mind.

[Pyed]

Hit the Deck, on 22 March 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Nothing personal but that would be weird and I doubt that would even cross PGI's mind.

Why would I take that personally?

Not sure what's weird about it other than it would be a new and interesting mechanic.
If it wouldn't cross PGI's mind otherwise, maybe they'll read my comment and consider it!

In the meantime instead of trying to guess how PGI would react to it, what do YOU think would be the gameplay implications of such a design? Good, bad, how so?

[RestosIII]

Pyed, on 22 March 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

Why would I take that personally?

With the hostility floating around here, people have been trying to pick fights at the drop of a hat, and saying that an idea someone has is highly improbable gets a lot of people annoyed. At least, that's my explanation.

In regards to your idea? I still wish missiles with Artemis had better flight mechanisms. Aka missiles attempting to avoid minor obstacles like poles, or LRMs trying to fly straight at the target if you have LoS and there's a ceiling above you. And ATMs have Artemis base IIRC.

[UnseenFury]

So, ATMs are lock-on? Should be made laser/wire guided (you control them mid-flight like an AT4 launcher from Bad Company 2) to avoid making another no-skill toxic weapon system like Streaks or LRMs. Just fyi, I'm not suffering from these in game, it's just imo, the best game - is a skill-based only game, like Quake 3 Arena. And clicking one button mindlessly like a {encumber} should not be endorsed. And I should not suffer when my team has LRM glue-eaters in it.

I see people crying here about LRMs being bad, there SHOULD NOT BE lock-on canc3r in PC GAMING. No matter the lore. If you want to buff the LRMs, buff the damage or speed, idc, but make them semi-wire-guided so that when they are close to target you have to lead ahead of the enemy (if the enemy is moving) to control where they hit.

As for streaks, yes make them wire-guided too, they lock-on, being fired in the direction of the locked target, but for the rest you control them yourself with your mouse movement.

But seeing how PGI is nerfing SKILL-BASED weapons such as Gauss and PPC, looks like they are doing everything so that a general target audience FullNA Little Jimmy would feel the best.



Once again, Inner Sphere has BIG BOOM FUN Autocannons, now they are getting cool Rotaries and BAD-4SS MRMs when as seen from the faction play, Clanners are reduced to laser vomit that makes me sick (pun intended).

Great balance, PGI, great balance (not).

[Brain Cancer]

This is a game where anything that scatters damage without any method to stop it is automatically considered below the notice of "expert" players.

ATMs will basically end up with an accurate range like LRMs do- velocity equals effective range, and worse, ATMs are non-guided rounds (as in they can't be IDF'd, nor do they have Streak-style control). I see them as ending up much like standard SRMs, with damage reduction rapidly kicking in as range increases, streaming fire and likely better velocity than either of the other two missiles to reflect their capacity to reach far longer ranges.

They're the Clan competitor to the MRM launcher in MWO, weird as that may be.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 11 June 2017 - 08:37 PM.

[Grimm Peaper]

People seem to forget there are other lock-on/targeting methods that we've seen before in MW games. In MW4, streaks would travel to the part of the mech that you fired at.

Give ATM the ability to indirect fire for long range and then act like MW4 streaks and fly to towards the body part that you aimed at when you fired.

[Vellron2005]

My Idea for ATMs is basically this:

Give them LRM lock-on ability and damage drop-off.

If lock on - they behave like LRM's with damage drop off. They fire indirectly.
If no lock-on, they behave like SRM's with damage drop off. No indirect fire.
if locked on, but lock lost, they keep flying to target's last location like LRMs do.

Simple, no?

Grimm Peaper, on 11 June 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

People seem to forget there are other lock-on/targeting methods that we've seen before in MW games. In MW4, streaks would travel to the part of the mech that you fired at.

Give ATM the ability to indirect fire for long range and then act like MW4 streaks and fly to towards the body part that you aimed at when you fired.

Yeah, Artemis used to let you lock on to a specific body part (like a leg) and hit only that.. We should totally get that implemented as a skill tree chain.. Like the zoom, radar derp.. this could be a nice feature too..

Edited by Vellron2005, 12 June 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[UnseenFury]

Yes-yes, more lock-on disease instead of interesting, fun and rewarding wire-guided mechanics. You can't have anything good with this target audience.

[Brain Cancer]

Wire-guided rounds would still be incredibly inferior to regular direct fire, as you're now sitting there lobbing slow rockets across the field while your opponent is blasting you to bits with ACs, lasers, and pepsigoose.
They'd have to have velocity literally four times of an LRM to be roughly AC/20 speed to even be remotely accurate, and you'd have to hold target the entire time or risk cratering the launch. They can't be fire and forget, or they outstreak Streaks.

It's not an easy solution to do anything different.

[Khobai]

as long as ECM screws up missiles ATMs will never be good

Quote

Yes-yes, more lock-on disease instead of interesting, fun and rewarding wire-guided mechanics. You can't have anything good with this target audience.

wire guided mechanics would be fine for something like MRMs.

but ATMs are advanced guided missiles. their guidance system is far more advanced then just being able to steer right and left a little bit.

Edited by Khobai, 12 June 2017 - 12:05 PM.

[Luminis]

Going by the info I found on Sarna, only the later iATM used Streak-like guidance. And the way I understand it, it's the iATM that has indirect firing capabilities while the regular ATM does not. Seems to me like the regular ATMs are simply dumb fire weapons, much like regular SRMs. I am a little puzzled how y'all established that ATMs are lock-on, guided missiles.

Was there a dev post on that or am I missing something else?