145 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Right now MWO LRMs have a 1000m Range,
in TT 30m is 1Hex so MWO LRMs would have a 33Hex Range,
however in TT LRMs have 21Hex Range 12Hexs Less,

now most if not all weapons in MWO have 30m/Hex range
so should LRMs be brought inline with all other weapons in MWO,
(to keep LRMs Ranged Viability lets assume 40m/Hex)


=the Concept=
LRMs would have 840m(40m/Hex) Range,
this would bring LRMs closer to all other weapons in MWO,
and perhaps they would gain better velocity or spread or both,
-
this also will have the secondary effect of forcing LRM Only Boats Closer to the Front lines,
having them Share their armor more so than they currently do sitting back at 950m,

=(Poll)=


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Edit- Formula Changed,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 March 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[Threat Doc]

First, I cannot vote in your poll, as there are not enough options to work with... this is not a yes, no, I don't care answer; there's a good deal more to it than that. So, here's what I would propose...

All Warnings and Saves: The visual and audio warnings in the cockpit about incoming missiles and the Radar Deprivation module need to be gone from the game post-haste. When an individual disappears behind a structure or a rock or another 'Mech the lock is broken quickly thereafter, anyway, and it takes forever to regain a lock. LRMs are the ******* child of the MechWarrior Online universe when they should be the lead dog, period.

All LRMs: Increase speed to 280 m/s (roughly 1,000 kph or over 600 mph). Also, considering ballistic and laser weapons have had their damages adjusted upwards near double, to match the foolish adjustment in armor, to upwards near double when PGI has expressed a desire to increase TTK -duh!-, LRMs should also have their damage adjusted upward.

Indirect Fire: Leave this at 1000m range, requiring a dedicated spotter or a network of spotters for triangulation. With one spotter -someone who has hit 'R' to mark the target- the spread of a missile cloud would be, say, two meters per five-rack; each added spotter to help with locks reduces that spread by one meter. In other words, if firing an LRM-15, from point-of-fire to 1000m, the unaided spread is six meters for the whole rack. With one spotter, that cloud is reduced to five meters, each additional spotter reduces another meter, to a minimum of three meters spread, one-half the maximum spread of the cloud, as a minimum.

Direct Fire: Reduce this to 630m range, requiring no spotter, but reducing missile spread to 3m at 630m range.

Edited by Threat Doc, 23 March 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

First, I cannot vote in your poll, as there are not enough options to work with... this is not a yes, no, I don't care answer; there's a good deal more to it than that. So, here's what I would propose...

Fair Enough,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

All Warnings and Saves: The visual and audio warnings in the cockpit about incoming missiles and the Radar Deprivation module need to be gone from the game post-haste. When an individual disappears behind a structure or a rock or another 'Mech the lock is broken quickly thereafter, anyway, and it takes forever to regain a lock. LRMs are the ******* child of the MechWarrior Online universe when they should be the lead dog, period.

disagree, Missile warnings have been a staple of most MW Games, and it does add a level of immersion to the game,
also Radar Dep is a Direct Counter for Target Decay so theres that as well,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

All LRMs: Increase speed to 280 m/s (roughly 1,000 kph or over 600 mph). Also, considering ballistic and laser weapons have had their damages adjusted upwards near double, to match the foolish adjustment in armor, to upwards near double when PGI has expressed a desire to increase TTK -duh!-, LRMs should also have their damage adjusted upward.

Velocity i can Support, Damage increase id have to say no to though,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Indirect Fire: Leave this at 1000m range, requiring a dedicated spotter or a network of spotters for triangulation. With one spotter -someone who has hit 'R' to mark the target- the spread of a missile cloud would be, say, two meters per five-rack; each added spotter to help with locks reduces that spread by one meter. In other words, if firing an LRM-15, from point-of-fire to 1000m, the unaided spread is six meters for the whole rack. With one spotter, that cloud is reduced to five meters, each additional spotter reduces another meter, to a minimum of three meters spread, one-half the maximum spread of the cloud, as a minimum.

disagree, this concept has the secondary benefit of forcing LRM only Boats from hiding in the back 950m away,
also this would be a Direct nerf to Indirect fire, worst than my idea of removing it as you need 2-3 people to make it work,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Direct Fire: Reduce this to 630m range, requiring no spotter, but reducing missile spread to 3m at 630m range.

again this would be a Direct Nerf and would also be a penalty to the Spirit of that this Topic is proposing,
it also doesnt make much sense 630m you can lock on your own, and need no assistance at all,
but at 640m you can still see the target target them for a paper doll but cant lock and fire your missiles?


what im proposing with this change is to bring LRMs back in line with All other MWO weapons,
and Push them from being a long range Meh weapons into Viability like most other Weapons in MWO,
for Balance and Fairness i feel LRMs need to have their Range Reduced to be fair to all MWO Weapons,
the new Weapons that are coming will likely follow this 30m/Hex Formula, so why shouldnt LRMs?

[Johnny Z]

LRM's are very powerful in the right hands on the right team. They also get trolled a lot in quick play and are not actually that bad.

[Andi Nagasia]

very true,
but most of the time when you hear people complaining about LRM Players,
they say (they hide back at 900m Spamming LRMs not caring if they hit not sharing armor with the team)
i feel this Range Reduction + Spread & Velocity Buff will help those Players who LRM Right(With the Team)
wail also encouraging those who want to stay back and shoot to share their armor with the team,

[The6thMessenger]

Annoying as seeing potatoes lurm from beyond 900 meters and not share armor, that massive expanse of range is sometimes useful. I'd probably lower it to 900 meters, and have the spread not uniform across all ranges.

I'd agree if they make it so that the farther you are from 500 meters, the wider the spread.

[Threat Doc]

I'm going to cut what you've said down because I couldn't give two shits what most players want in the game, I care about what would be right to make LRMs viable. Your objections are noted, but they are wrong, period.

Andi Nagasia, on 23 March 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

disagree, this concept has the secondary benefit of forcing LRM only Boats from hiding in the back 950m away, also this would be a Direct nerf to Indirect fire, worst than my idea of removing it as you need 2-3 people to make it work

Not only is this backwards, it's untrue. I don't hide back at 950m or 1000m or 1100m, I advance within 200m behind my group, which gives me the opportunity to have some protection from my team if I get jumped, which happens entirely too often, but it also allows me to support them from a distance. Further, I have only ever been accused one time of not "sharing armor", and I find the concept offensive and counter to good tactics and strategy. Complaining about not sharing armor is for the weak-minded who cannot fathom using their LRM team mates appropriately. I would much rather spread damage and make the opponent die for their country, rather than sharing armor and dying for mine. I cannot hit under 180m, and any gun monkey with a brain understands the concept that I have to remain behind, somewhere, so I may as well take the safest place I can and HELP my team mates kill the enemy, so there is LESS ARMOR SHARING... what an asinine concept.

Quote

what im proposing with this change is to bring LRMs back in line with All other MWO weapons,
and Push them from being a long range Meh weapons into Viability like most other Weapons in MWO,
for Balance and Fairness i feel LRMs need to have their Range Reduced to be fair to all MWO Weapons,
the new Weapons that are coming will likely follow this 30m/Hex Formula, so why shouldnt LRMs?

With what you're proposing, you will not do this, you will simply nerf the hell out of LRMs all the way into the dirt. LRMs need to be versatile to be useful.

Quote

but most of the time when you hear people complaining about LRM Players,
they say (they hide back at 900m Spamming LRMs not caring if they hit not sharing armor with the team)
i feel this Range Reduction + Spread & Velocity Buff will help those Players who LRM Right (With the Team)
wail also encouraging those who want to stay back and shoot to share their armor with the team

If you're to LRM "right", being with the team, you're cutting your neck to spite your face. This might work with Clan 'Mechs, because they have 0 minimum range, but it does NOT work with Inner Sphere 'Mechs. The moment I close to within 300m of my opponent, they are on me like stink on **** and I'm dead, useless to the team, and though I'm softening to the idea, especially with the forthcoming change to the FedCom Civil War, I will not drive a stinking tubie 'Mech.

Those items I suggested would make LRMs useful, again, would encourage getting into LOS, if not close, and would make it so being out of LOS and/or having little spotter support would become a detriment to the team, worse than it is, now. You want to make LRMs useful, again, you need to figure out how to get rid of the inherent prejudice against them. Every time I go into a fight, and I am almost always mostly LRMs -I always carry other weapons for when the ammo runs out, and I get into the mix immediately once my racks are dry-, my team mates are like, "Hey, let's shut out LRMs by breaking locks and switching to other 'Mechs because, well, I don't need locks to hit with direct weapons, and then ***** to THEM when we lose the fight because they weren't "SHARING ARMOR" with us," and that's just like, "Oh, hey, let me drink this horrible poison and wait for the bad guys to expire!" It's a perception that needs to be changed, especially because it's like the absolutely irrational fear of spiders, mice, and bees... LRMs are horrible because (insert any gun bunny reason here)... I swear, people build excuses out of the air so they can ***** about LRMs being used.

You asked what could be done to improve LRMs and, based on the other thread we've been participating in, how it's helped shape my perception, helped me to recall what I know, and thus form a better opinion, that's what I've placed in this thread, improvements. In the other thread we were discussing the differences that could be made between direct and indirect fire, and I've added those, here, and you didn't have any objection to them in the other thread, so why the sudden animus toward them?

[Bishop Steiner]

"LONG RANGE" Missile.

So we want to reduce the range? I'll pass-.

[Alex Morgaine]

300m/s velocity. Ecm and cover will handle the rest.


.... And ams if anyone brings it (probably more then you think)

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

"LONG RANGE" Missile.

So we want to reduce the range? I'll pass-.

I was typing up a long thing but I decided against it. Voting no as well, and to add, I usually see LRM boats within 700M of a fight. It wouldn't do much to them anyways.

[Wild Cat]

Johnny Z, on 23 March 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

LRM's are very powerful in the right hands on the right team. They also get trolled a lot in quick play and are not actually that bad.

^ This,

[Davegt27]

Sorry kids I voted no

The constant crying about balance means every Mech and every weapons system is so
So

Think of balance as a sine wave superimposed on a straight line
It fluctuates from side to side but overall it stays close to the straight line
(AKA balance)

I personally liked it more when I could find that build and wreck face with it lol
And I loved it when the forums came alive with the nerf this or that

PGI has adapted to all the cry babbies and the game is pretty balanced

JMTCW

[dario03]

Didn't we get a lurmageddon when PGI raised the velocity by something like 30m/s? It wasn't a lol everything is instantly exploding lurmageddon but it was kind of crazy and everybody was running lurms because of it.

[Barantor]

Something needs to drastically change with LRMs but I don't know if your changes hit enough of the notes.

They've been jacked with and under/over buffed at times probably more than any weapon, I'm of the mind to wait and see how MRMs end up before changing LRMs though.

[El Bandito]

840 meters? Heck I'd settle for the TT range of 630 meters, if my LRMs can go at 300 m/s. Right now LRMs are so mediocre, doubly so after LRM5 got its spread nerfed by nearly 50%.

[Lyoto Machida]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

"LONG RANGE" Missile.

So we want to reduce the range? I'll pass-.

LRMs should roughly have the same range as Gauss rifles if we're talking TT stats, no? 630-660m, if I recall right. And since Gauss can hit out further than their max range, that might be the justification for leaving the LRM max at 1000m but then why don't SRMs go out to like 410m by the same rationale?

dario03, on 23 March 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

Didn't we get a lurmageddon when PGI raised the velocity by something like 30m/s? It wasn't a lol everything is instantly exploding lurmageddon but it was kind of crazy and everybody was running lurms because of it.

It was glorious actually...it's just that the game was filled with a bunch of direct fire crybabies.

[Andi Nagasia]

Johnny Z, on 23 March 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

LRM's are very powerful in the right hands on the right team. They also get trolled a lot in quick play and are not actually that bad.

Agreed, but in this Case would you Support a Trade off? Velocity for Range?

The6thMessenger, on 23 March 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

Annoying as seeing potatoes lurm from beyond 900 meters and not share armor, that massive expanse of range is sometimes useful. I'd probably lower it to 900 meters, and have the spread not uniform across all ranges.

I'd agree if they make it so that the farther you are from 500 meters, the wider the spread.

ive reworked the Topic abit to be 40m/Hex so it will be more like 840m which i think should be ok,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm going to cut what you've said down because I couldn't give two shits what most players want in the game, I care about what would be right to make LRMs viable. Your objections are noted, but they are wrong, period.

well games usually change for balance and what most people feel is balanced,
so it does matter what the majority thinks, you disagree thats fine post your thoughts,
my objections are still valid until you give counter arguments to convice me im wrong,
which you havent dont yet so till you do i still feel im right, .... um Period?

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Not only is this backwards, it's untrue. I don't hide back at 950m or 1000m or 1100m, I advance within 200m behind my group, which gives me the opportunity to have some protection from my team if I get jumped, which happens entirely too often, but it also allows me to support them from a distance. Further, I have only ever been accused one time of not "sharing armor", and I find the concept offensive and counter to good tactics and strategy. Complaining about not sharing armor is for the weak-minded who cannot fathom using their LRM team mates appropriately. I would much rather spread damage and make the opponent die for their country, rather than sharing armor and dying for mine. I cannot hit under 180m, and any gun monkey with a brain understands the concept that I have to remain behind, somewhere, so I may as well take the safest place I can and HELP my team mates kill the enemy, so there is LESS ARMOR SHARING... what an asinine concept.

this isnt an attack on anyone its just LRMs have gotten a bad name,
this is mostly because of some players afraid of getting their Paint Scratched,
they stay in the back & dont share armor with the team, & as such arnt considered helpful to the Team,
-
LRMs can be Useful in coordinated Attacks, but a lone person cannot use them as such,
yes dealing damage is important , but keeping your Team alive as long as possable is as well,
the more of your Armor you Share the longer your Team Lives, more Players Alive = more Damage / Time,
-
as an LRM player i assume you have back up weapons to fend off should the worse happen?

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

With what you're proposing, you will not do this, you will simply nerf the hell out of LRMs all the way into the dirt. LRMs need to be versatile to be useful.

Agreed which is why im proposing a range reduction to go along with a Velocity and Spread Buff,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

If you're to LRM "right", being with the team, you're cutting your neck to spite your face. This might work with Clan 'Mechs, because they have 0 minimum range, but it does NOT work with Inner Sphere 'Mechs. The moment I close to within 300m of my opponent, they are on me like stink on **** and I'm dead, useless to the team, and though I'm softening to the idea, especially with the forthcoming change to the FedCom Civil War, I will not drive a stinking tubie 'Mech.

ok just so you know, you may not have played Clan too much, but Clan dont have a 0m min Range,
once a mech gets under 100m Clan LRMs do less than 0.1Damage a missile,
-
why 300m? ive used LRMs up to 200m, just aim down abit as you fire,
most of the time doing so can force all your LRMs to hit CT, which could help in last Ditch,

Threat Doc, on 23 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

You asked what could be done to improve LRMs and, based on the other thread we've been participating in, how it's helped shape my perception, helped me to recall what I know, and thus form a better opinion, that's what I've placed in this thread, improvements. In the other thread we were discussing the differences that could be made between direct and indirect fire, and I've added those, here, and you didn't have any objection to them in the other thread, so why the sudden animus toward them?

i agree some of your ideas and concepts are interesting,
but thats another topic, here im asking if a Range reduction for Spread or Velocity Buff would be fair,
i would love for you to make a topic on your ideas, i would encourage you to,

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

"LONG RANGE" Missile.

So we want to reduce the range? I'll pass-.

Thanks Bishop always a Pleasure,
dont suppose you could,... um add anything to the topic?
do you think a Range for Velocity or Spread Trade off?

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 March 2017 - 06:21 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 March 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Agreed, but in this Case would you Support a Trade off? Velocity for Range?


ive reworked the Topic abit to be 40m/Hex so it will be more like 840m which i think should be ok,




well games usually change for balance and what most people feel is balanced,
so it does matter what the majority thinks, you disagree thats fine post your thoughts,
my objections are still valid until you give counter arguments to convice me im wrong,
which you havent dont yet so till you do i still feel im right, .... um Period?






this isnt an attack on anyone its just LRMs have gotten a bad name,
this is mostly because of some players afraid of getting their Paint Scratched,
they stay in the back & dont share armor with the team, & as such arnt considered helpful to the Team,
-
LRMs can be Useful in coordinated Attacks, but a lone person cannot use them as such,
yes dealing damage is important , but keeping your Team alive as long as possable is as well,
the more of your Armor you Share the longer your Team Lives, more Players Alive = more Damage / Time,
-
as an LRM player i assume you have back up weapons to fend off should the worse happen?


Agreed which is why im proposing a range reduction to go along with a Velocity and Spread Buff,


ok just so you know, you may not have played Clan too much, but Clan dont have a 0m min Range,
once a mech gets under 100m Clan LRMs do less than 0.1Damage a missile,
-
why 300m? ive used LRMs up to 200m, just aim down abit as you fire,
most of the time doing so can force all your LRMs to hit CT, which could help in last Ditch,


i agree some of your ideas and concepts are interesting,
but thats another topic, here im asking if a Range reduction for Spread or Velocity Buff would be fair,
i would love for you to make a topic on your ideas, i would encourage you to,




Thanks Bishop always a Pleasure,
dont suppose you could,... um add anything to the topic?
do you think a Range for Velocity or Spread Trade off?

Decaf. I want you to switch to decaf my friend.

[Bishop Steiner]

But in seriousness? I think you need to take a deep breath and wait for the Skill Tree. I found LRMs to be much improved (though not meta perfect by any means) through smart Skill Node selection.

Thus, I would prefer to wait until that is done before hacking away at them wholesale in some manner that may not work well with the Skill Tree.

[Jep Jorgensson]

I think LRM's should stay the way they are now. LRM's have their advantages and disadvantages. As a big LRM pilot, I know. So let us review them.

Advantages:

1. They are long range (1000-1100 Meters max).

2. They are indirect-fire weapons.

3. They can deal a lot of damage.

4. They can be dumb-fired.


Disadvantages:

1. Unless both you and your target are standing perfectly still, they will most likely require a lock to guide them to your target.

2. They take time to finally reach their target that the firing mech needs to maintain his lock on or the missiles will lose their lock.

3. They have a hard range limit and are easily out-ranged by many other weapons.

4. They are weak or completely ineffective up close (180 Meters and less).

6. LRM boats are priority targets on every battlefield.

7. They are weak against small, fast moving targets (Light mechs).

8. They can be countered by ECM, AMS, and any obstacle that the target decides to hide behind.

9. They cannot be aimed at a specific body part.

10. They cannot destroy any fresh mech quickly (Either too much armor or too small to hit effectively with their wide spreads) like some other weapons (Gauss, PPC's, IS laser vomit, etc).

11. A number of missiles commonly miss the target even when lock is maintained (Due to their spreads).

12. They cannot destroy a mech without expending a large amount of ammo (Unless someone else softened them up beforehand (Come to think of it, has a "Ratio of Amount of Ammo per Kill Study" for all the weapon systems ever been done?)).

13. Other pilots cannot seem to find their "R" keys to get locks for the LRM boats no matter how many times we tell them in plain language (Not an issue in TT, I know. But here, it is).


I am sure I might think of something else later, but this is what comes to mind right now. Hope it was enlightening for everyone.

P.S. Are there even any meta-mech builds with LRM's?

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 23 March 2017 - 07:20 PM.