46 replies to this topic

[FireStoat]

Okay then, it's agreed. IS Mechs should be able to remove actuators, and Clan Omnimechs should be able to remove fixed Jump Jets. Let's wrap this up with the same campaign of canceled orders and salty posts & tweets that delayed the skill tree.

[Dogstar]

Also it makes no sense - why can one variant of the Centurion use an arm mounted AC20 but all the others cant?

Why do the Zeus and the Dragon, two mechs ideally suited to mounting an AC20 in the arm, have no variants without a LAA?

Yet every single clan mech can optionally remove them... but don' have to because their AC20 uses fewer slots.

It's just an annoyance for no benefit.

[R Valentine]

No reason we shouldn't be able to take off lower arm and hand actuators. Hand actuators don't even do anything. Lower arms have a use, but it's one most ppl can live without. The crit slot means the difference between being able to fit that AC20 and not.

[Monkey Lover]

FireStoat, on 24 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Okay then, it's agreed. IS Mechs should be able to remove actuators, and Clan Omnimechs should be able to remove fixed Jump Jets. Let's wrap this up with the same campaign of canceled orders and salty posts & tweets that delayed the skill tree.

Most the clan mechs with fixed JJ are kind of junk in my view so it wouldn't be a big deal.
I think I would like to see pods without JJ than being able to remove them. Kind of like what the timber has as this would keep clan battle mechs "special".

[FireStoat]

If my Viper and Huntsmen could suddenly drop jump jets for other equipment, I don't think I'd be alone in how happy it would make me.

[Dogstar]

@FireStoat Stop that, you're just being a curmudgeon.

This isn't a balance issue, clan mechs don't lose out if IS mechs get to fit AC20 in the arm, and conflating optional removing of IS actuators with making omnimechs even better than they are already is a nasty trick to try to pull.

[Athom83]

Dogstar, on 24 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also it makes no sense - why can one variant of the Centurion use an arm mounted AC20 but all the others cant?

Because it was designed and built that way.

Dogstar, on 24 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Why do the Zeus and the Dragon, two mechs ideally suited to mounting an AC20 in the arm, have no variants without a LAA?

Because they were designed that way.

Dogstar, on 24 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yet every single clan mech can optionally remove them... but don' have to because their AC20 uses fewer slots.

Only clan OmniMechs. Clan standard mechs cant.

Dogstar, on 24 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

It's just an annoyance for no benefit.

Its an annoyance for the benefit of balance.

[Mystere]

Dogstar, on 24 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also it makes no sense - why can one variant of the Centurion use an arm mounted AC20 but all the others cant?

Isn't that the whole point of the word "variant"?

[Johnny Z]

Clan and Inner Sphere balanced? Hahahaha, no.

[Valhallan]

To those saying to keep as is for "character" (which ridiculously gimps huge weapons even further), fine then give EVERYONE the TT Crit splitting mechanic (preferable imo, its just that removing actuators would be simpler for PGI), that lets 8+ crits weapons split between 2 locations. It still maintains the "character" of that AH cent since his ac20 will be using arm type arc (also his triple close clustered missile racks is also a lot of "character" btw), while a split ac20 will be using torso type arc. this way ac20/lbx20 wouldn't be so restricted as to ban usage on most mechs (also opens the door to fatter cannons like Sniper/thumpers).

[Dogstar]

@Athom83 You're saying it should be the way it is because it is the way it is, what kind of argument is that? You're making all kinds of logical fallacies here.

Also, I notice that everyone objecting to this is a clan loyalist - not exactly unbiased are they...

[Khobai]

Quote

Also it makes no sense - why can one variant of the Centurion use an arm mounted AC20 but all the others cant?

it makes perfect sense. its to differentiate the variants.

if all centurions could use AC20s, why would you ever use a centurion-AH instead of a centurion-A? the centurion-A has way better hardpoints and would make the -AH obsolete. currently the only reason to use the -AH is because it can use an AC20 and other centurions cant.

I personally think hand actuators need to stay. But hand actuators should do something useful like give a bonus to hill climbing. You should gain some kindve bonus for giving up those crit slots.

Quote

Why do the Zeus and the Dragon, two mechs ideally suited to mounting an AC20 in the arm, have no variants without a LAA?

specifically because dragons dont use AC20s in their arms.

if the dragon was ideally suited to mounting an AC20 in its arm there would be a variant of the dragon that had an AC20 in its arm.

the fact it doesnt exist means its not suited for it.

but the dragon should still get some kindve bonus for having a hand actuator it cant remove. a hill climbing bonus makes sense to me.

Quote

give EVERYONE the TT Crit splitting mechanic (preferable imo, its just that removing actuators would be simpler for PGI), that lets 8+ crits weapons split between 2 locations.

except adding crit splitting defeats the purpose of why people want to keep hand actuators in the first place.

allowing the centurion A to crit split an AC20 would make the centurion AH obsolete. the A and AH need to stay different because thats the whole point of variants.

Edited by Khobai, 25 March 2017 - 01:36 AM.

[Valhallan]

Khobai, on 25 March 2017 - 01:20 AM, said:

allowing the centurion A to crit split an AC20 would make the centurion AH obsolete. the A and AH need to stay different because thats the whole point of variants.

As a AH user (in FW, scouting is the only fair mode imo), no it would not, first the AH has 3B in that arm and the A has 2 E in the chest, also QUIRKS, finally a crit split ac20 will move as slow and be as limited in arc as torso mounts, the AH AC20 will still be using the arm movement and fire arc.

Edited by Valhallan, 25 March 2017 - 02:26 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Or you know

We can have this

[Fiona Marshe]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 24 March 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Hand actuators in lore, have reason for being there as they are used to grab things and the like. I've long argued for a mode that encourages the use of hand actuators, from a CTF-esque mode,to a "Steal the X and return to base" kind of mode, something that would give mechs with hand actuators something to do.
.

See new Incursion mode. They just need some code "Hand Actuator = Yes, you can have the powercell. Hand Actuator = No, get lost".

[jjm1]

I'd like to put larger guns on OmniMechs without losing the lower arm actuators. Maybe there is a lore reason, or that's just how it was in TT just because, but it seems very contrived. And its yet another design attribute in favour of clan battle-mechs, which were usually older second line mechs. Nothing is adding up!

ie: ER-PPCs on MAD or MAD-IIC arms will have lower actuators. But it doesn't let you do that on a TBR. Meanwhile non-omnis with lower actuators can wave their big guns around like a 6 shooter and are way more fun to play.

[Athom83]

Dogstar, on 25 March 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

@Athom83 You're saying it should be the way it is because it is the way it is, what kind of argument is that? You're making all kinds of logical fallacies here.

There is a reason variants of things exist. You have to completely redesign something off of the base of the original to adequately modify it. Take the Sherman tanks for example. The A4 had to be lengthened to fit the A57 engine, the A6 needed to be lengthened and widened for the diesel D200A engine. The A3 needed a redesigned suspension system to retain maneuverability from the increased armor, heavier weapons, and a ford engine.

My point is, you can easily customize Omnipods as they are designed to be customized and swapped around. Standard BattleMechs can't be as easily customized as they were never designed to be.

Dogstar, on 25 March 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

Also, I notice that everyone objecting to this is a clan loyalist - not exactly unbiased are they...

I'm objecting to this and I'm an IS loyalist.

jjm1, on 25 March 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

I'd like to put larger guns on OmniMechs without losing the lower arm actuators. Maybe there is a lore reason, or that's just how it was in TT just because, but it seems very contrived.

Actuators are weakpoints in designs. While they allow freedom of movement, they can't support weight like a solid support can.

Khobai, on 25 March 2017 - 01:20 AM, said:

if the dragon was ideally suited to mounting an AC20 in its arm there would be a variant of the dragon that had an AC20 in its arm.
the fact it doesnt exist means its not suited for it.

The 7n could possibly do it as it does mount a gauss in its right arm, with another AC5 in its left. But that is a Civil War era variant so we may see that coming after the time jump.

[Dogstar]

@Athom83 You're still presenting the same weak argument: 'there's no variants like that so there shouldn't be any variants like that' - it' a circular argument and a logical fallacy

My point is to actually improve things and give us more choice, f*ck the lore, let us put some big guns on our mechs - it's not difficult to implement because they already have the code in place for omnimechs so just cut and paste it over to IS and can battlemechs - an hours work for a competent programmer and a massive benefit for the players.

and for the lore hounds let me ask you this - did you only play the TT game with predesigned mechs or did you build your own? There' nothing I the TT rules that enforces actuators - you can simple cross them off the mech sheet and fit what you like.

There's no downside to this.

[Clownwarlord]

Interesting question. Concerning the point Clan mechs do get the option to remove hand and lower arm actuator I would say maybe but then again as one has mention before it is one of the few advantages clan omni mechs have.

Overall though I would say yeah would be nice for PGI to do that but then we will see more AC20s in the arms than we currently do because of two more crit slots being empty then. So if PGI says no I wouldn't be heart broken.

[Snazzy Dragon]

It saddens me just how many people are against it.

"But muh lore" is the reason the game is so imbalanced.