128 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 03 April 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

first off why in oden's name would you do that to a 4p. Secondly that 2c is a one Trick pony. If you get in close it won't have the staying power for a brawl. Third, with the first point, the IS hunchback has perks for days to structure why would you NOT set that up to brawl? You're intentional butchering of that much to try to prove your logic is astoundingly disheartening.

Butcher or not, your opinion of what I did to the 'Mech is irrelevant. I have eliminated every variable that can be eliminated to show you what happens when you try to build an IS 'Mech like a Clan 'Mech. I could do the same thing with laser vomit and still show it off, but we would be comparing non-like items because the Inner Sphere do not yet have their ER Medium lasers.

But you don't need to take my word for it. You can go into the game and easily see that:

A Clan XL engine has an identical cost to an Inner Sphere XL engine of the same rating.
A Clan DHS has the same cost as an Inner Sphere DHS.
A Clan LB-10X has the same cost as an Inner Sphere LB-10X.
A Clan Ultra AC/5 has the same cost as an Inner Sphere Ultra AC/5.
A Clan ER PPC has the same cost as an Inner Sphere ER PPC.
Clan Ferro has the same cost as Inner Sphere Ferro Fibrous per 'Mech weight

There is literally nothing about Clan equipment that costs more than its respective Inner Sphere counterpart. There are weapons that the IS don't have that cost more, but when the IS get theirs they will cost the same.

And before you even think about saying "Clan ACs," cACs are actually the slug versions of the LB-X in MWO, hence why they cost as much as an LB-X.

[Grus]

MovinTarget, on 03 April 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

I said IIc mechs... Is Kodiak a IIc mech?

But still... lets do some math (now that I *AM* in front of my computer:
KGC 0000 sells for 9.7 mill with no DHS/FF/END upgrades and a STD300 and 2x AC20 being the big weapons expense @600k each.

KDK 3 sells for 16 mil with FF/DHS and XL400 and 2 LBX20 @ 1.2Mill each...


Take principle weapons off both:
KGC -> 8.5 million
KDK -> 13.6 million

Take away KDK's DHS and FF upgrades (1.5 Million + .5 Million)
KGC -> 8.5 Million
KDK -> 11.6 Million

Take away engines (STD300 @ 1.8 Mil vs XL400 @ 6.5 Mil)
KGC = 6.3 Million
KDK = 5.1 Million


So not looking at any other aspects they are pretty dang close, when looking at CB costs...

And before anyone says it, IS XL engines have the EXACT same pricing scale.




Here's a light comparison

ACH - A @ 7mill vs Spider 5K @ 2.5 Mill

Add DHS/FF/END to the 5K (1.9 Million)
SPD 5K -> 4.4 Million
ACH-A -> 7 Million

Swap the 5K's STD for an XL240 (4 million - 1.5 million = 2.5 million)
SPD 5K -> 6.9 Million
ACH-A -> 7 Million

So as many many many others have stated, the UPFRONT cost of clan mechs is often higher, but the end value after comparable upgrades is nearly the same.


These are examples. While I have not done an exhaustive cost analysis of *every single freaking mech* I am reasonably comfortable that you will not find many circumstances where there will be an overall cost disparity.
These are examples. While I have not done an exhaustive cost analysis of *every single freaking mech* I am reasonably comfortable that you will not find many circumstances where there will be an overall cost disparity.

fair with the IIC I'll get off work a little early today so we can run numbers tonight. I would like to compare going from stock to "meta for equivalent mech class/tonnage.

[Gas Guzzler]

Grus, on 03 April 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

for an omni mech I can see you're argument, he'll without looking at the numbers right now I'd even agree with you. But roll that over to clan Battlemechs and you have the same problem but way more expensive...

No... you don't. It depends on the equipment that comes with the battlemech. There's no "Clan mech premium" attached to mechs. Its all what the mech comes with. A Battlemech that comes with an XL and DHS is going to be more expensive than a BattleMech of similar mass with a STD engine and SHS. There is no cost JUST for being a Clan mech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Grus, on 07 April 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

fair with the IIC I'll get off work a little early today so we can run numbers tonight. I would like to compare going from stock to "meta for equivalent mech class/tonnage.

That's going to be a mixed bag. Some Clan Battlemechs need to upgrade their engine from an XL 270 or STD 270 to an XL325, whereas other Clan Battlemechs like the Marauder IIC which might make use of their stock XL340. Similarly, some IS mechs might need to upgrade from a STD 300 to an XL 350, other IS mechs might make use of their stock engine. Its not a Clan-IS thing, its a how far from optimal the stock loadout is thing.

Even still, having mechs cost a little more shouldn't make them unbalanced. Some mechs are actually optimized with STD engines currently (like the Atlas), just because you have a more expensive engine doesn't exactly mean that you should have an advantage.

[Grus]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 April 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

That's going to be a mixed bag. Some Clan Battlemechs need to upgrade their engine from an XL 270 or STD 270 to an XL325, whereas other Clan Battlemechs like the Marauder IIC which might make use of their stock XL340. Similarly, some IS mechs might need to upgrade from a STD 300 to an XL 350, other IS mechs might make use of their stock engine. Its not a Clan-IS thing, its a how far from optimal the stock loadout is thing.

Even still, having mechs cost a little more shouldn't make them unbalanced. Some mechs are actually optimized with STD engines currently (like the Atlas), just because you have a more expensive engine doesn't exactly mean that you should have an advantage.

that's a good way to put it. I currently have the max STD engine in mine and the mobility of it scares people.

[MovinTarget]

And comparing "meta" is a bit of a... Moving Target (sorry couldn't resist!) anyway.. this is why I tried to compare the raw materials that make up mechs.

Meta can change over time, the price of mechs, parts, and upgrades has been largely consistent.

The only time an IS would be hypothetically cheaper to kit out is when you *don't* want all the upgrades, mostly on assaults where you have tonnage to spare, but space can be at a premium.

At any rate, I just wanted to address the assertion that, carte blanche, clan mechs are more expensive... the initial purchase is, but IS mechs will ultimately be comparable in overall cost after receiving upgrades...

[Grus]

MovinTarget, on 07 April 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

And comparing "meta" is a bit of a... Moving Target (sorry couldn't resist!) anyway.. this is why I tried to compare the raw materials that make up mechs.

Meta can change over time, the price of mechs, parts, and upgrades has been largely consistent.

The only time an IS would be hypothetically cheaper to kit out is when you *don't* want all the upgrades, mostly on assaults where you have tonnage to spare, but space can be at a premium.

At any rate, I just wanted to address the assertion that, carte blanche, clan mechs are more expensive... the initial purchase is, but IS mechs will ultimately be comparable in overall cost after receiving upgrades...

still waiting for clan 2mil light mech *cough*urbie *cough* lol

[MovinTarget]

Grus, on 07 April 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

still waiting for clan 2mil light mech *cough*urbie *cough* lol

LOL as it stands, it takes a REAL man to pilot an un-upgraded Urbie... Ya gotta slap on DHS/ENDO and an XL180 and then you have the makings of a beast...

Oh look, that 2 mil mech suddenly costs 6 mil...

[Grus]

MovinTarget, on 07 April 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

LOL as it stands, it takes a REAL man to pilot an un-upgraded Urbie... Ya gotta slap on DHS/ENDO and an XL180 and then you have the makings of a beast...

Oh look, that 2 mil mech suddenly costs 6 mil...

Frankly I don't see a reason not to run it stock, but that'd just me.

So after modified it's as much as a clan light BEFORE we start tweaking it.