101 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

The Lighthouse, on 05 April 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Just let you know my home country's video gaming market was utterly destroyed when they went full F2W route.

Just two games. Overwatch and LoL nearly eradicated South Korean's game developers. Those companies that once boasted twice of the size of EA, now they are only making crappy mobile games. And it took no more than 2 years.

Its because S. Korea, and China as well --- which is still growing mightily --- are making martial arts MMOs with boobs and butts. Which I don't think is really fading away, as each game looks better and sexier than its predecessors (see Revelations Online).

Mobile games are seriously making money that Japanese companies like Nintendo, SEGA, Square Enix are all moving heavily into it.

S. Korea is one of the epicenters of mobile gaming, thanks to Samsung and LG. Another major mobile epicenter is Japan, and we are seeing that with China and the US too.

I find many mobile games to be surprisingly good. In fact the mobile platform is eroding away the console player base. It is estimated that at this point in time, the console industry is less by 125 million units in this stage compared to the previous generation.

[justcallme A S H]

Agreed.

A dangerous path is being walked and it's getting bigger.

BLOOD WOLF, on 05 April 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

nice thread for a general discussion, you gave me soooooo much to chew on.

Hasn't stopped you nibbling at the bone before.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 05 April 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[Anjian]

The social acceptance of P2W is only going to grow bigger, and a large fault of that is the player base, who are shilling their P2W game is not P2W because this and that, including ever redefining what is P2W and moving that goal post further and further.

The worst among the lot are the WoT shills, which are prototypically defining the generic P2W shill.

That's how F2P creep happens, happened and is happening. Because people have accepted it, then are blind to it, calling their P2W game not P2W because of ridiculous redefinition, then whale their dollars, their yen, their yuan and their won into it.

[Lupis Volk]

Thing is unlike a F2P game like World of tanks, a light can take out an Assault.

Anyway Pay to Win means that if you exchange money you get a clear and defined power boost compared to a none paying player.

While some of the mechs which were mediocre to borderline junk are now somewhat useful thanks to the hero's and are balanced by the fact that you can only have one set of hero omnipods.

[dario03]

Lupis Volk, on 05 April 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Thing is unlike a F2P game like World of tanks, a light can take out an Assault.

Anyway Pay to Win means that if you exchange money you get a clear and defined power boost compared to a none paying player.

While some of the mechs which were mediocre to borderline junk are now somewhat useful thanks to the hero's and are balanced by the fact that you can only have one set of hero omnipods.

I don't really think that should count for balance discussion since unless you are trying to run multiples of the same chassis in FP that doesn't really matter. Plus once they are available for MC can't you buy extra heros to get extra pods?

[Karl Marlow]

Wouldn't pay to win imply that these mechs or their pods would make the chassis in some way overpowered?

I mean. The ice ferret gets an ECM torso upgrading its status from complete crap to slightly less crap.

Most other pods people are whining about tends to add an additional energy hard point to mechs players already can't control the heat on or adds a loadout already available to mechs in a similar weight class.

Where is the p2w?

Edited by Karl Marlow, 06 April 2017 - 12:48 AM.

[kesmai]

There will be always a hardcore following of ~6000-10000 players for this game.
About a quarter of them will buy almost every shite from pgi.
Go figure...

[Gattsus]

Coolant, on 05 April 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

There is no way any Hero mech is P2W....p2W stands for Pay to Win and you are not guaranteed to win with these mechs. And, there is nothing to win anyway.

P2W refers to have an advantage compared to non paying users.
Strictly speaking the new hero mechs are P2W. If that doesn't bother you, up to you. For those of us that'd like a fair playing field, it does.
This for me is almost the last straw.

[Johnny Z]

Hes right.

I don't think this game is pay to win though.

[Gattsus]

Karl Marlow, on 06 April 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Wouldn't pay to win imply that these mechs or their pods would make the chassis in some way overpowered?

I mean. The ice ferret gets an ECM torso upgrading its status from complete crap to slightly less crap.

Most other pods people are whining about tends to add an additional energy hard point to mechs players already can't control the heat on or adds a loadout already available to mechs in a similar weight class.

Where is the p2w?

The P2W is that without forking real life cash, you'll never have access to them and their advantages. This is one of the most sacred pillars of F2P.
Same happened with the hero lol-cust.

Edited by Gattsus, 06 April 2017 - 12:57 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

I wouldnt call it pay to win, as such - in that i think the best mechs in every class (not chassis, though) are available for cbills, and no $$ only consumables or similar exist that give you an advantage. As such, a completely free player has exactly as much ability to win games as a paying player (grind time notwithstanding, thats kinda standard).

I do think its a slippery slope though, and one PGI should be very careful of, and in the case of Omnimechs the hero pods should be eventually made available for cbills to avoid slipping too far.

Edit: ive seen real P2W happen, my favourite MMO went full r3t4rd P2W by putting in some potions that couldnt be purchased with ingame money, were very expensive and, if you had good gear, made you close to immortal. It killed the game, very fast. This is nothing even close to that. I know what P2W looks like, and the instant i see it, ill be leaving.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 April 2017 - 01:04 AM.

[Gattsus]

What can I say, I'm just sad, and disappointed 😔

[Gattsus]

Widowmaker1981, on 06 April 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

I wouldnt call it pay to win, as such - in that i think the best mechs in every class (not chassis, though) are available for cbills, and no $$ only consumables or similar exist that give you an advantage. As such, a completely free player has exactly as much ability to win games as a paying player (grind time notwithstanding, thats kinda standard).

I do think its a slippery slope though, and one PGI should be very careful of, and in the case of Omnimechs the hero pods should be eventually made available for cbills to avoid slipping too far.

For me, that I've been since 2012, after all the **** ups, which have been plentiful as you know, of igp, then pgi, lurmaggedons, balance, technical issues, lack of progress... I guess it's over.

[PhoenixFire55]

All the "better skill prevails" comments are kinda cute. Clueless, but cute nonetheless.

Sure, put an idiot into a better mech and he'll still lose to a better player coz he is an idiot. But what does that prove exactly? Take two equally skilled players and the one in a better mech will win. And the thing is, lots of hero mechs are in many ways better than non-hero variants, there is no denying that. ECM exclusive hero mechs (Archer, IceFerret etc.), ballistic exclusive hero mechs (Warhammer, Cyclops, Grasshopper etc.), better omnipods hero mechs (Huntsman, MadDog, Summoner etc.).

Powercreep and P2W is so obvious really. Not even gonna go into discussing quirks and how real money only mechs (hero or early access) have amazing quirks on release that are turned into garbage when other new mechs are pumped out. The funniest thing is that there are idiots who are still crying PGI take my money on every corner ...

But oh well, I'm sure Russ' and Paul's alt accounts will shortly tell me how very wrong I am. Holding my breath ... not.

[Gattsus]

Why not do like, heroes of the storm, dota, cs, sigh

[Rakshasa]

The day they lock the KDK-3, ECM, gauss rifles and AC's behind a paywall is the day I'll believe PGI has entered P2W territory. In the meantime I've never met any mech, Hero or otherwise, that couldn't be killed one-on-one, or that gave a bad pilot a better footing than a good pilot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know all the most dominant meta-mechs right now are available for C-Bills anyways.

Pay to optimize? That might be different. Some of the new Heroes have nice Omni-Pods, that's true. For people paying for the 'Mech, it's a nice nod to their contribution. For people looking to squeeze every last drop of advantage from a chassis, you might have to (le gasp!) open up your wallets. Even if you don't though, I'm pretty certain you'll still be able to compete just fine.

[Kroete]

P2W = getting anything thats not only cosmetic or convenience.

Better quirks on mc only mechs = p2w
Getting ecm only on a mc variant = p2w
More weapons on mc-only omnipods = p2w
Getting better hardpoint locations for mc = p2w
...
MWO is and was pw2, but now they crossed the 5-10% realmoney advantage thats aceptable for most players.

This happens if developers only know that they can make cash from f2p or if a game is on soldout,
you know the playerbase shrinks, but its still time to milk some whales until they have noone left to play against.

Edited by Kroete, 06 April 2017 - 01:39 AM.

[Anjian]

The Lighthouse, on 05 April 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Just let you know my home country's video gaming market was utterly destroyed when they went full F2W route.

Just two games. Overwatch and LoL nearly eradicated South Korean's game developers. Those companies that once boasted twice of the size of EA, now they are only making crappy mobile games. And it took no more than 2 years.

Incidentally, I just came off from my mobile PvP game battling South Koreans, two or three of them in the same clan, and my side has mixed Koreans and Japanese.

[RAM]

brroleg, on 05 April 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot, once popular and fun game died and got shut down after devs went pay to win path.

First, the community does not agree it was due to P2W; second and far more germane to your 'example', the game is still available to play...


RAM
ELH

[Codpond]

Idk guys my Orion-m pulls in 600-700 dmg a game. That thing is def not pay to win. I've played a lot of pay to win games and this is not one of them. This is probably one of the most skill dependent games out there. Scoff all you want, but I've been playing competitive games (cs, lol, Starcraft, etc) competitively for nearly 15 years. This game is great. Lack of UI, competent front end and grouping mechanisms (ease of use) is the real killer. The grind scared all my friends off this game. Competitive people play multiple games at high level. They can't sit and grind one out if the player base is not big enough to warrant it. We need more casuals... more front end hooks to keep people interested. Make some mechs free! Like 2 from every weight class. Make people play 30 games then bam! 8 free mechs to doodle on in the mech bay with those 25 mil c bills. New players will love it. Us vets don't care (unless you don't think we need new people more than anything else).