150 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

or how bout we just acknowledge that heat isnt the problem. because its not.

again the problem is pinpoint damage and that people can vomit all their weapons into one location rather than damage being spread out and randomized.

your 30 heat threshold doesnt fix that at all. because I can still do my dual gauss, dual erppc frontloaded pinpoint super damage alphastrikes.

the only way to fix that is to add more game mechanics that spread damage around.


im not saying the heat system cant be improved upon. but it should be done in a way that makes the game more like battletech sim. it should actually make the game more fun and immersive. not more restrictive and limiting.

your 30 heat cap is neither fun nor immersive. its just another irritating curtailment like ghost heat. and it doesnt even prevent the biggest problem in the game which is pinpoint alphastrikes.

mechanics that spread damage aroudn will impact and require rebalancing even more stuff, suddenly mechs with big hitboxes are going to get a much bigger nerf in comparsion to mechs with slim hitboxes. atm, aim is the most "fair" one as for every person with some not derp aim, every mech can can get it's damaged applied in the section you aim for. But when you add spread or inaccuracy, you open another HUGE box of imbalance towards mech geometry, because even today thats already a part of balance but a spread mechanic will just massively improve this issue.

also 30 heatcap is immersive, you cannot produce more heat because whatever produces heat woudl melt, heat needs to be transported and dispersed off first. And less fun is subjective it's only less fun for people who rely on one button configs with many weapons. And when you make alpha strikes not hit anymore where aimes, then you cna just make the mechs a single hitbox and randomise damage across the mech. Whats the point fo aiming then? creating a geometry based mess? soudn seven less fun whe I have to choose the geometry fitting emchs + their weapons of the leats spread derp.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2017 - 05:00 AM.

[Ruar]

I agree that heat is somewhat ignored because of the 90% shutdown mark. I am constantly amazed when I watch other people play and they shutdown every shot because their build is so hot. The fact that running hot is actually encouraged because front loaded damage is so much stronger than the ability to fire for a long period of time shows that a change is needed.

I'm not sure changing the hud is the answer though because it feels more like punishment instead of trading damage for something else.

I think one of the first areas that should be looked at is reducing speed at around 75-80% heat. Someone who runs hotter will be slower so there is a tradeoff for the damage.

Next I think the shutdown penalty should feel more like a penalty. Would it be possible to keep the current timer for restart and movement, but have the weapons be offline for a longer period of time? This would let someone maneuver but they wouldn't be able to keep up the rate of fire. The timer could be adjusted based on mech weight as well. Keep playing with the numbers until shutting down is viewed as something you want to avoid by making cooler running mechs.

The player then has the choice of high heat, high damage builds but knowing there are more penalties for that style of play.


One thing I saw in the responses is if the heat penalty is increased then players would just switch to gauss builds. I think a solution there is for gauss rifles to have a higher baseline heat level on the engine. Not that firing the gauss has more heat, but because the gauss draws so much energy it causes the engines to run hotter in order to keep the energy output normalized. So firing gauss wouldn't change anything, but you'll have less overall heat room to work with when adding additional weapons to the mix. An all gauss build won't so any real change, but start adding other weapons and overheating becomes a concern.

[Shifty McSwift]

Ruar, on 10 April 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

I agree that heat is somewhat ignored because of the 90% shutdown mark. I am constantly amazed when I watch other people play and they shutdown every shot because their build is so hot. The fact that running hot is actually encouraged because front loaded damage is so much stronger than the ability to fire for a long period of time shows that a change is needed.

I'm not sure changing the hud is the answer though because it feels more like punishment instead of trading damage for something else.

I think one of the first areas that should be looked at is reducing speed at around 75-80% heat. Someone who runs hotter will be slower so there is a tradeoff for the damage.

Next I think the shutdown penalty should feel more like a penalty. Would it be possible to keep the current timer for restart and movement, but have the weapons be offline for a longer period of time? This would let someone maneuver but they wouldn't be able to keep up the rate of fire. The timer could be adjusted based on mech weight as well. Keep playing with the numbers until shutting down is viewed as something you want to avoid by making cooler running mechs.

The player then has the choice of high heat, high damage builds but knowing there are more penalties for that style of play.


One thing I saw in the responses is if the heat penalty is increased then players would just switch to gauss builds. I think a solution there is for gauss rifles to have a higher baseline heat level on the engine. Not that firing the gauss has more heat, but because the gauss draws so much energy it causes the engines to run hotter in order to keep the energy output normalized. So firing gauss wouldn't change anything, but you'll have less overall heat room to work with when adding additional weapons to the mix. An all gauss build won't so any real change, but start adding other weapons and overheating becomes a concern.

Could be interesting if the Gauss charge up timer chewed heat?

But overall this is more indication to me, that they have just gone overboard on some weapon loadout potentials. Of course the most efficient way to deal damage is to spray it all out in 1.1 seconds or whatnot, as long as you aren't suffering large amounts of ghost heat, why not.

And therein lies the issue in the current ghost heat mechanic, people just bypass it by mixing up the minimum/maximum numbers to be most efficient.

Hence why I suggested a redo of the concept of ghost heat, having it apply in any sort of multiple weapon firing situation, just to varying degrees. That way it is ALWAYS a trade off to mass fire or alpha strike, in many cases it may still be worth it, but it will be obvious to all that you have done it, in how you chose to fire in any given circumstance.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

except 30 heat threshold just forces you into dual gauss builds. because they allow you to maximize your firepower under that kindve heat constraint. 2 gauss and 2 erppc is 30 heat for example. 1+1+14+14 = 30

For starters, get rid of automatic pinpoint convergence in the absence of a lock, give gauss and (ER)PPCs 10 second cycle times, make 27-30 heat (90-100%) cause shutdown, and going over makes you go Boom!

Lily from animove, on 10 April 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

mechanics that spread damage aroudn will impact and require rebalancing even more stuff, suddenly mechs with big hitboxes are going to get a much bigger nerf in comparsion to mechs with slim hitboxes. atm, aim is the most "fair" one as for every person with some not derp aim, every mech can can get it's damaged applied in the section you aim for. But when you add spread or inaccuracy, you open another HUGE box of imbalance towards mech geometry, because even today thats already a part of balance but a spread mechanic will just massively improve this issue.

Require a lock for pinpoint.

Edited by Mystere, 10 April 2017 - 11:14 PM.

[Mystere]

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:14 PM, said:

Are we gonna have any convergence or are my kgc's arm mounted weapons gonna shoot around my target if they're smaller than my armspan

Mystere, on 10 April 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

Require a lock for pinpoint.

[Mystere]

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

Okay so I guess I'm putting a tag on my kgc?

If you require TAG for a lock, that's on you.

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

And are we getting rid of heatsinks adding heat capacity? You want people to die when they fire 6 cermls?

More heatsinks = faster heat dissipation. Fire your weapons accordingly.

Edited by Mystere, 10 April 2017 - 11:22 PM.

[Mystere]

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

If they have Ecm I do, plus that decreases lock time. Pretty much required at that point. You wouldn't be able to hit anyone otherwise

Do you not know the position of your weapons relative to your crosshairs?

[Mystere]

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

What you're thinking of doesn't work with anything faster than ac/10's

What exactly do you think I am thinking of?

[Mystere]

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Aiming to he left of center for my right arm and right of center when i fire my left

Good. But, are you saying you can't do that?

[Mystere]

Promessa, on 10 April 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

You could let people set convergence manually with the scroll wheel or something

Given my numerous posts on the topic of convergence, that is already a given.

Edited by Mystere, 10 April 2017 - 11:47 PM.

[SQW]

Promessa, on 11 April 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

Just booted up mw4 for funsies and fired 6 ermls in my Ryoken about 10 times in a row before it got hot. 2 PPc's and 11 heatsinks on a timber get you back to 0 heat before the ppc's recycle(only generates like 2000K). Haven't really played the older ones much though and I don't have them installed. Mw4 though has instant convergence, every weapon (except missiles) is hitscan, and there are no beam durations/burst projectiles. No ghost heat either lol. Very fun game.

Single player game are designed to make players feel like a God hence the 'fun'. The Mechwarrior IP is a power fantasy for those who like Battletech but wants more pew pew. Even PGI knows MW mechanics doesn't work in an online game but were to chicken to adopt the Battletech aiming system. Face it, hit scan weapons gone out of fashion in the late 90s and out of all the armor warfare games out there, MWO is truly the last refuge of those who need aim assistance.

[Dogstar]

Frankly, all we need for heat penalties is to slow mechs down by 10% for every 25% heat they have

That would be more than enough to provide a decent simulation of the heatscale penalties in TT without making the game awful.

[Widowmaker1981]

SQW, on 11 April 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Single player game are designed to make players feel like a God hence the 'fun'. The Mechwarrior IP is a power fantasy for those who like Battletech but wants more pew pew. Even PGI knows MW mechanics doesn't work in an online game but were to chicken to adopt the Battletech aiming system. Face it, hit scan weapons gone out of fashion in the late 90s and out of all the armor warfare games out there, MWO is truly the last refuge of those who need aim assistance.

They work fine from where im sitting.

You seem to want PGI to have adopted the Battletech aiming system, i.e. random hit tables. That would suck.

Only lasers and MGs are hitscan by the way, and lasers are DOT weapons.

[Lily from animove]

SQW, on 11 April 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Single player game are designed to make players feel like a God hence the 'fun'. The Mechwarrior IP is a power fantasy for those who like Battletech but wants more pew pew. Even PGI knows MW mechanics doesn't work in an online game but were to chicken to adopt the Battletech aiming system. Face it, hit scan weapons gone out of fashion in the late 90s and out of all the armor warfare games out there, MWO is truly the last refuge of those who need aim assistance.

but funnily in MWO we can spamfire much more than in MW3 so the goldmode was just put higher, and thats why amror even had to be doubled and a leg los isn't death (like in the old MW games)
I don't know how much heat the MW4 heatscale had, didn't palyed that MW title much, found it quite crap compared to MW3 and 2. Mechs were the most ugly ones of all the games even wiht better graphics.

But seriously, playing MW3 after MWO again was makingem realise how much alphawarrior MWO is, most combos we can throw out would make you instantly explode in MW3. but well handeled you cna fire more dps, it is just working different and less alpha friendly. And this even with PPFLD lasers. It woudl be very itnerestign palying MW3 with MWO weapon mechanics where all lasers burn.

Mystere, on 10 April 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

For starters, get rid of automatic pinpoint convergence in the absence of a lock, give gauss and (ER)PPCs 10 second cycle times, make 27-30 heat (90-100%) cause shutdown, and going over makes you go Boom!




Require a lock for pinpoint.

in that case ECM would have to go the way it is, otherwise it would be the new overlord. theres many solutions but many of them need wider adjustments

[SQW]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 April 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

They work fine from where im sitting.

You seem to want PGI to have adopted the Battletech aiming system, i.e. random hit tables. That would suck.

Only lasers and MGs are hitscan by the way, and lasers are DOT weapons.

RNG is the boogeyman of people who can't plan for unfavorable outcomes.

When i fire 40t of weapons down range in MWO and they all hit that one pixel, I know it's not skill.

Edited by SQW, 11 April 2017 - 01:45 AM.

[Valhallan]

Valhallan, on 10 April 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Yes instant convergence is problematic, but it could be interpreted that TT pilots are actually twisting their butts off during the firing phase to spread that damage all about, so they would only get drilled by the sniper builds (which also can happen in TT through TC/called shots). That being said I like some others wouldn't mind different convergence speeds between torso/arm weapons or even between weapons.

assume the best of the TT pilots because the only actual tater-able character in TT is the commander giving them commands

[Devils Advocate]

I like the idea of a heat penalty conceptually but MWO has plugged in more than enough "features" in an attempt to balance the game over the years as it is. There was a time before Ghost Heat, before charging up Gauss Rifles, before Crit Bonuses, before Quirks, before the clan ERPPC with its splash damage mechanic, before overheating damaged your core, and before the weird floating robot 3rd person implementation. I wouldn't say the game was 'superior' before any of these features were added but there's got to be some way to balance out the gameplay without convoluting the mechanics any further.

[Widowmaker1981]

SQW, on 11 April 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

RNG is the boogeyman of people who can't plan for unfavorable outcomes.

When i fire 40t of weapons down range in MWO and they all hit that one pixel, I know it's not skill.

The person you shot at was standing still and staring, if 40 tons of weapons hit one pixel. Thats pretty unskilled of him/her.

Yes, im saying that in this game, you can take some responsilbility for your own defence.

[SQW]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 April 2017 - 02:35 AM, said:

The person you shot at was standing still and staring, if 40 tons of weapons hit one pixel. Thats pretty unskilled of him/her.

Yes, im saying that in this game, you can take some responsilbility for your own defence.

If both parties are standing still and the radar has a hard lock then yes, pin point away. When both parties are moving with passive ecm fighting radar locks, shooting from the hip should not be accurate at all. Twitch skillz should be left at the door.

[Rakshasa]

Mister Blastman, on 07 April 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

I want to see my pilot's arms melting off when it gets too hot in the cockpit. Flesh... dripping from my fingers as my white, glistening bones claw at the control surfaces.

Then the glass cracks.

And my vision blurs.

And before I can react, my cockpit's atmosphere goes rushing through those cracks and the last thing I think is, "Oh ****!" As my harness straps are burned undone, and my melting sinew releases my bones and I tumble through the shattering glass into the gloom of the battlefield. Crying out, I shield my eyes, and through my skeleton hands I see my 'mechs foot come crashing down upon me.

Then there is black.

And in bright, blood red, YOU ARE DEAD bleeds onto my screen.

That escalated quickly x.x

Also, heat penalties would be good, yes. They're a core part of BT, and would add a whole layer of gameplay in knowing when to run hot and when to ease off the alpha strikes.