310 replies to this topic

[Marauder3D]

Nice thing about the Scorch I've been leveling up is it forces me to be at around 200 meters and in the face of everyone. Coming from leveling 50 ton Crabs and poking, quite a play style change. Definitely enjoying the Marauder IIC's.

[ANOM O MECH]

Valleric, on 10 April 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

Awww. You can't be talking about me. I'm really nice to everyone. Also I rarely drop call. I only do if no one steps up and there is a lack of communication. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way at some point.

Nope was not referring to you.

[Acehilator]

Valleric, you should read posts more closely before liking them lol.

It was only one line and you still messed up.

[Lorcryst NySell]

justcallme A S H, on 10 April 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

That is good, because the fact is you are wrong... Very wrong.

<sniped the epeen touting>

And yet, even after I've admitted being bad and my willingness to learn from better players than me, you're STILL pouring salt and vitriol, telling than I'm bad and very wrong ...

... but not a single word on how I can get better !


Sorry, this is once more my humble opinion, but aside from game mechanics and weapon systems, players like you are a pain in the nether regions.

I fled from many MMOs because of the Elitest of the Elitest that belittled other, newer players and never deigned to actually teach newbies how to play the game.

And now I'm bitter and furious.

Gr.

Edited by Lorcryst NySell, 10 April 2017 - 11:52 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Lorcryst NySell, on 10 April 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

And yet, even after I've admitted being bad and my willingness to learn from better players than me, you're STILL pouring salt and vitriol, telling than I'm bad and very wrong ...

... but not a single word on how I can get better !


Sorry, this is once more my humble opinion, but aside from game mechanics and weapon systems, players like you are a pain in the nether regions.

I fled from many MMOs because of the Elitest of the Elitest that belittled other, newer players and never deigned to actually teach newbies how to play the game.

And now I'm bitter and furious.

Gr.

You'll hear the term "git gud" a lot I'm sure. The idea is good but it's not really directly helpful, right?

The reality is that the absolute best advice isn't "reinvent the wheel and figure it out". The best advice anyone can give you is 2 parts -

#1 Meta is, essentially, Most Effective Tactic Available. It's there for a reason. Look at meta builds, build them exactly and play them. This shows you WHY they are the optimal builds used by the best players. Throw out the concept of "my playstyle". There are two styles - what works best and everything else. After you're really good at the game and truly understand the how and why then you'll start to develop a style based around what you personally do best and enjoy but right now, since you don't know the hows and whys of what works best your style is based on incorrect and incomplete information and bad habits. Put your ego aside and focus on what works best and why. The meta. People have already spent years refining this out for you - use what they've already tested. Then, when you've mastered that, adapt it to you.

#2 You're not an island. You dont need to join a unit but it helps. At least play consistently with good players, ask questions, watch them and see what they do and why. Trying to play solo and get good at the game is like saying you want to become an Olympic athlete bit not have a trainer or team to train with. You'll be lucky to get to 'mediocre'. Humans are learning creatures and learning from those who already have the skills you want to develop is the best, proven, most effective way to learn.

FW is a good environment because you can get on a faction hub, find a group of players who are happy to help you and start soaking up info.

Git Gud is a marathon, not a sprint. Meta mech design and teamwork are the best tools, developed by people who've already attacked this skillset. Use those tools, be patient and focus on being good enough to do your own variant and still being successful instead of being ego driven to stick doggedly to your existing habits. If those habits were good we'd be studying how you play to learn to Git Gud.

Edited by MischiefSC, 10 April 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

You'll hear the term "git gud" a lot I'm sure. The idea is good but it's not really directly helpful, right?

The reality is that the absolute best advice isn't "reinvent the wheel and figure it out". The best advice anyone can give you is 2 parts -

#1 Meta is, essentially, Most Effective Tactic Available. It's there for a reason. Look at meta builds, build them exactly and play them. This shows you WHY they are the optimal builds used by the best players. Throw out the concept of "my playstyle". There are two styles - what works best and everything else. After you're really good at the game and truly understand the how and why then you'll start to develop a style based around what you personally do best and enjoy but right now, since you don't know the hows and whys of what works best your style is based on incorrect and incomplete information and bad habits. Put your ego aside and focus on what works best and why. The meta. People have already spent years refining this out for you - use what they've already tested. Then, when you've mastered that, adapt it to you.

#2 You're not an island. You dont need to join a unit but it helps. At least play consistently with good players, ask questions, watch them and see what they do and why. Trying to play solo and get good at the game is like saying you want to become an Olympic athlete bit not have a trainer or team to train with. You'll be lucky to get to 'mediocre'. Humans are learning creatures and learning from those who already have the skills you want to develop is the best, proven, most effective way to learn.

FW is a good environment because you can get on a faction hub, find a group of players who are happy to help you and start soaking up info.

Git Gud is a marathon, not a sprint. Meta mech design and teamwork are the best tools, developed by people who've already attacked this skillset. Use those tools, be patient and focus on being good enough to do your own variant and still being successful instead of being ego driven to stick doggedly to your existing habits. If those habits were good we'd be studying how you play to learn to Git Gud.

Now, THAT is useful !

Thank you !!!

[Valleric]

Acehilator, on 10 April 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Valleric, you should read posts more closely before liking them lol.

It was only one line and you still messed up.

My bad

Lorcryst NySell, on 10 April 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

And yet, even after I've admitted being bad and my willingness to learn from better players than me, you're STILL pouring salt and vitriol, telling than I'm bad and very wrong ...

... but not a single word on how I can get better !


Sorry, this is once more my humble opinion, but aside from game mechanics and weapon systems, players like you are a pain in the nether regions.


I fled from many MMOs because of the Elitest of the Elitest that belittled other, newer players and never deigned to actually teach newbies how to play the game.

And now I'm bitter and furious.

Gr.

I'll play with you man. Friend me. I play with some of the best players in the community.

Edited by Valleric, 10 April 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

DAYLEET, on 10 April 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

700 lrm damage is **** compared to 300 gauss/ppc or ac20srm6 damage. esp is you can aim. 700damage is good for the eyes and the scoreboard but its always all over the place.

Pretty sure the Captain didn't need to leave his ship

Lorcryst NySell, on 10 April 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

And yet, even after I've admitted being bad and my willingness to learn from better players than me, you're STILL pouring salt and vitriol, telling than I'm bad and very wrong ...

... but not a single word on how I can get better !


Sorry, this is once more my humble opinion, but aside from game mechanics and weapon systems, players like you are a pain in the nether regions.

I fled from many MMOs because of the Elitest of the Elitest that belittled other, newer players and never deigned to actually teach newbies how to play the game.

And now I'm bitter and furious.

Gr.

Good, be bitter and/or furious. When you've dismounted "the wold is unjust" train - Go and look in the new player help section.

There is pounds of advice in there from plenty of decent pilots, myself included. I've well and truly contributed my fair share of help to players on tactics, piloting and builds. Don't sit there and call me elitist because you are having an argument refuted in a Gen Disc area. You ask anyone that has dropped with me, a list of people that is extremely long, I will share builds/advice/tips any time someone asks.

If you want help, go there. Read, learn - if you still don't get it, ask a question.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 10 April 2017 - 04:45 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Well, this subject keeps coming up.
Video tells it well.
Example of LRMing Assaults. I usually now just suffer them in silence, no point complaining in game and posting here gets not much changed. There was even the recent topic about non-LRMing Assaults still hanging back addressed in 2 following videos.

This video also shows getting low damage does not always mean the one player sucked. My 50 damage I do not consider all on me, at one point I am the only guy holding the Domination circle for our team as almost everyone else held back. The Linebacker ran away and the one guy over in G7 was moving in and out of both cover and the circle. Someone had to hold the dang circle and I wound up being 'it' and getting overrun that forced me to move out while still being in the circle as long as possible thus got focused.
After death, I flip through cockpit views and you can see what loadouts our 4 Assaults had.
Also note sometimes when I speak, my name does not appear center bottom, I do not say everything over VOIP.

Now in another topic in addition to here, it was discussed about how part of the community thinks Assaults should push up front while others said they prefer hanging back.

Yes, sometimes having Assaults push can work like this.

But sometimes even when your Assaults lead, you can STILL lose like this.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

tker 669, on 10 April 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

If I wasn't aware of who you were fighting with I probably would not be on your side. From the point of view of face value, your posts look like f everybody I do what I want in a team game. People read that as coming off selfishly.

From you initial posts, I do not actually think that is where you are coming from. Am also familiar with the other guy who is probably the worst wanna be drop caller in puglandia and well known for being highly insulting.

If you want to call me "bad" & "Wanna-be"... then you are required to actually demonstrate that I am incorrect in my assessment & statements. There is a a whole annotated map for you to use where I laid out EXACTLY was wrong with his play and how we had to carry him to victory because he was utterly useless the entire time it mattered. So how was my trying to get him to move 700m to a different part of the map a "bad" call when he is in a LRM Assualt that lacks any Line of Flight on the enemy where he currently was the wrong thing??? Oh yeah... cause you can not and you are just someone who refuses to listen and then says the plan does not work when you convince 5 people not to follow it.

[The6thMessenger]

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

Meta= Most Effective Tactic Available. Anyone who acts like meta is a bad word is being a nitwit.

Remember when there's the episode of Simpsons where Lisa became the coach of Bart's episode? The part where Lisa made them win up to the championship via Statistics and junk?

Meta sometimes takes the fun out of the game. Yes you win most of the time, with the most efficient build you can put in your mechs, or playstyles like Gauss PPC.

But if you're like me, it's not fun when you ALWAYS win. It bores me.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

ScrapIron Prime, on 10 April 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

The thread title immediately made me compare it to "swipe right". But i digress...

LRMs on an assault mech are not wrong. Hanging back at 800 meters expecting your lurms to be useful and having no credible secondary weapons... Thats what is wrong.

Using lurms effectively takes more than just getting a lock and firing them. We should be teaching players this instead of just ridiculing them for selecting the weapon system.

I try... I have tried so many times with the person this thread is about and volunteered himself, and then when I ran across him later that night and he was playing as terribly as he always does. I told him how to not be terrible in the match and I went out of my way to make an annotated map of WHY he was playing badly. The real problem is that the people who gives LRM Assualts a bad name are INCAPABLE of learning to not be bad, otherwise they would very quickly learn it. That LRMs are a mid-range weapon not a long range one... when they notice that their recticule never flashes red, they try to make it flash red cause then they will actually be hitting the target. I learned how to LRM during the 2 weeks when I sent my GPU back to EVGA to have it replaced and was playing with 5-7 FPS, I could literally not play anything else.

[Valleric]

Yea I was trying to be nice at first too when that Dee guy showed himself. The dude has a thick head and wont learn from experienced veterans. Who knows though, there's still hope for him if his ego chills out.

[Alexander of Macedon]

On a related note: would you rather have a max-range LRM assault or an assault who decides to stand directly behind people when they poke hills in wide open maps instead of echeloning to the right or left?

Yes, I'm triggered. Polar Highlands, "Sorry, my 'mech is slow" as I eat return fire from two lances because a 100t roadblock followed in my footsteps when we had a 200m stretch of ridge to use. Though we were both dead anyways since the rest of the team went back to base to play chase-the-squirrel and 60kph ain't **** in the middle of Polar.

[MischiefSC]

The6thMessenger, on 10 April 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

Remember when there's the episode of Simpsons where Lisa became the coach of Bart's episode? The part where Lisa made them win up to the championship via Statistics and junk?

Meta sometimes takes the fun out of the game. Yes you win most of the time, with the most efficient build you can put in your mechs, or playstyles like Gauss PPC.

But if you're like me, it's not fun when you ALWAYS win. It bores me.

Meta only 'takes the fun out of the game' if understanding how the game works is no fun for you. There are meta ballistic builds, laser builds and splat builds. Gauss/PPC is far, far from the only meta.

Also, nobody 'always wins'. Playing good mechs and understanding why they are good and what wins and what doesn't in no way, shape or form guarantees anyone a win. It just means you're making good tactical decisions in what mech to make in the same way you want to make good tactical decisions about where you go and what you do in a match.

The question starts to become are people happy to see you on their team, are they depressed to see you're on their team or is it largely irrelevant to see you on their team. The decisions people make before the match starts are just as important as the ones they make after.

However, again. There's meta for every single type of build. Even LRMs. They're certainly not all equal but different builds and mechs are better than others. Learning the meta and playing the meta just means learning the how and why of that. Also, nobody 'always wins'. Nobody. The question is, 'are you winning significantly more than you're losing and as such being a consistent benefit to your team'.

That's what Git Gud is.

[The6thMessenger]

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Meta only 'takes the fun out of the game' if understanding how the game works is no fun for you. There are meta ballistic builds, laser builds and splat builds. Gauss/PPC is far, far from the only meta.

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

However, again. There's meta for every single type of build. Even LRMs. They're certainly not all equal but different builds and mechs are better than others. Learning the meta and playing the meta just means learning the how and why of that.

There's difference from gaining knowledge, and applying what one knows. What's not fun for me is a strategy that always works, and I am not challenged because of that. It's easy mode for me.

I did say "like", it's not just Gauss PPC, rather it's an example. I also specified "playstyle" meaning it changes depending on the playstyle one wanted to employ. But to my understanding, it's the PPFLD meta -- to deal the entire damage at a shortest time possible, while also minimizing one's exposure.

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Also, nobody 'always wins'. Playing good mechs and understanding why they are good and what wins and what doesn't in no way, shape or form guarantees anyone a win. It just means you're making good tactical decisions in what mech to make in the same way you want to make good tactical decisions about where you go and what you do in a match.

True. Still closest though, it's like smurfing.

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

The question starts to become are people happy to see you on their team, are they depressed to see you're on their team or is it largely irrelevant to see you on their team. The decisions people make before the match starts are just as important as the ones they make after.

It is a team game, but you're the player nonetheless. It's useless to play the game if you're not enjoying it. I didn't played MWO to please other people, but myself. However it is still a team-game, and they rely on me, that's why i compromise, my builds are generally not meta nor the best mechs, but i make it so that i could still contribute.

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Also, nobody 'always wins'. Nobody. The question is, 'are you winning significantly more than you're losing and as such being a consistent benefit to your team'.

I never said that someone always wins. I did say that it's not fun if one always wins.

So if you win "most of the time", therefore it's only fun a little bit.

[Valleric]

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Meta only 'takes the fun out of the game' if understanding how the game works is no fun for you. There are meta ballistic builds, laser builds and splat builds. Gauss/PPC is far, far from the only meta.

Also, nobody 'always wins'. Playing good mechs and understanding why they are good and what wins and what doesn't in no way, shape or form guarantees anyone a win. It just means you're making good tactical decisions in what mech to make in the same way you want to make good tactical decisions about where you go and what you do in a match.

The question starts to become are people happy to see you on their team, are they depressed to see you're on their team or is it largely irrelevant to see you on their team. The decisions people make before the match starts are just as important as the ones they make after.

However, again. There's meta for every single type of build. Even LRMs. They're certainly not all equal but different builds and mechs are better than others. Learning the meta and playing the meta just means learning the how and why of that. Also, nobody 'always
wins'. Nobody. The question is, 'are you winning significantly more than you're losing and as such being a consistent benefit to your team'.

That's what Git Gud is.

Yup. Cant win em all no matter how good you or yo team is. People make mistakes and even good players have bad luck.

[Valleric]

The6thMessenger, on 10 April 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

There's difference from gaining knowledge, and applying what one knows. What's not fun for me is a strategy that always works, and I am not challenged because of that. It's easy mode for me.

I did say &quot;like&quot;, it's not just Gauss PPC, rather it's an example. I also specified &quot;playstyle&quot; meaning it changes depending on the playstyle one wanted to employ. But to my understanding, it's the PPFLD meta -- to deal the entire damage at a shortest time possible, while also minimizing one's exposure.



True. Still closest though, it's like smurfing.



It is a team game, but you're the player nonetheless. It's useless to play the game if you're not enjoying it. I didn't played MWO to please other people, but myself. However it is still a team-game, and they rely on me, that's why i compromise, my builds are generally not meta nor the best mechs, but i make it so that i could still contribute.



I never said that someone always wins. I did say that it's not fun if one always wins.

So if you win &quot;most of the time&quot;, therefore it's only fun a little bit.

Honestly dude a good pilot can make most builds or mechs work. I got friends I see in sub par mechs doing great. I got friends I see in not optimised builds and they do great. But when they run top tier mechs with optimised builds they become gods of war. Though many say the optimised mechs and builds are not they favorite. **** even my favorite mech isnt optimized with a meta build. I think what matters more is "do you enjoy the weapons and playstyle". My favorite weapon is gauss. So should I not run my fave weapons just because people call it meta cheese? No way. I play what I enjoy as long as it dosnt hurt my team( cough, cough, assault lrms). Its all subjective, while meta players talk **** about players who talk **** about meta, and non meta players brag about how they are better because they don't play meta, and the world keeps spinning. Honestly I don't care if people bring meta builds or not, I just care if they are competent players who are team players.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Valleric, on 11 April 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

( cough, cough, assault lrms).

You need to drop the Assualt LRMs being the problem in your thinking... that was the 3rd best LRM mech in the game, should have gotten at least 700 damage and 3 kills on Canyon fighting in D4 (dumping missles over the hump and ML anything that crests or tries to go around either side at close range). It was 100% a case of operator error not mechanical failure that was responsible... it was not a poorly built Atlas or Kingcrab, it was the META of LRM Mechs played as badly as possible.

[Valleric]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 11 April 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

You need to drop the Assualt LRMs being the problem in your thinking... that was the 3rd best LRM mech in the game, should have gotten at least 700 damage and 3 kills on Canyon fighting in D4 (dumping missles over the hump and ML anything that crests or tries to go around either side at close range). It was 100% a case of operator error not mechanical failure that was responsible... it was not a poorly built Atlas or Kingcrab, it was the META of LRM Mechs played as badly as possible.

It's actually only recently ive taken a firm stance against lrm assaults. After the patch that decreased the tons recently the assault became the most important role in any drop. And if said assault or assaults drop as lrm boats it handicaps the team. That's cool a battlemaster is the 4th best lrm boat in the game, that dosnt mean you should do it though. Sorry if that upsets you but that's just being objective. At least in my mind. I could be wrong. But from my experience lrm assaults on a team means defeat. But maybe I just had bad luck in those drops. Until I'm proven wrong that's my stance on the matter.

Edited by Valleric, 11 April 2017 - 09:38 AM.