184 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

All I know is that it has never been about whether or not LRMs are a viable weapon or not, it's been about the over usage....most noticeably by the newer players.

Having a few "boats" on any PUG team tends to enhance, rather than detract, from a team's ability to create momentum. Even when the boaters have trouble keeping up with the rest of the team. The problems begin when 50% or more of the team relies on them as their primary damage dealer.

Even if you have the bravest brawler in the world willing to stand in front, all by himself, face tanking damage to provide locks....11 LRM guys are NOT going to stop the other team from walking over them. It just won't happen.

[Kroete]

Willard Phule, on 20 May 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

Having a few "boats" on any PUG team tends to enhance, rather than detract, from a team's ability to create momentum. Even when the boaters have trouble keeping up with the rest of the team. The problems begin when 50% or more of the team relies on them as their primary damage dealer.

One is nice to have,
more then two is too much.

[Kubernetes]

Meh, would you rather have an LRMer or another skilled direct fire pilot on your side? One thing that I want from teammates or a unit is confidence that they can cover my back. LRMs can't do that. A two-man team can't hold a position if one of them has LRMs. If an enemy brawler jumps in my face an LRMer isn't going to be able to one-shot him in the back. So yeah, I prefer no LRMs on my team.

[ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants]

LRMs are like H3rp3s..... They suck.

/thread

Edited by ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants, 21 May 2017 - 01:41 AM.

[MischiefSC]

With the increase in velocity, reduction of radar derp and generally slower mechs LRMs are a bit stronger.

However survival tree is exponentially better against LRMs because of spread damage letting me maximize the mech wife armor/structure buff. That 1 point of AMS overload is a given as it's the fastest way to get the 2 middle points of skeletal density means it's a given on most my mechs. I can step my engine down a tiny bit and get 1.5 tons free for AMS with no real impact to mech performance. With hill climb and gyros being very common from ops now I'm also finding it easier to get in and out of cover faster and getting lrm5 spammed is pretty irrelevant now. Honestly 3xac5 is far more dangerous than 6xlrm5.

Stood largely in the open last night against an LRM Griffin and LRM Archer and was able to put them both down with my MAD IIC while they were raining on me on Polar at about 500m. AMS and structure quirks plus an enhanced coolshot to let me immediately focus the other one made it relatively easy. A WHR and a Shad at the same range with direct fire would have killed me if I hadn't moved to cover.

I get that LRMs may feel better now but the combo of AMS and structure/armor buffs plus the buffs to make direct fire cooler and more accurate have ended up making LRMs even worse against semi-competent players.

[ccrider]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

With the increase in velocity, reduction of radar derp and generally slower mechs LRMs are a bit stronger.

However survival tree is exponentially better against LRMs because of spread damage letting me maximize the mech wife armor/structure buff. That 1 point of AMS overload is a given as it's the fastest way to get the 2 middle points of skeletal density means it's a given on most my mechs. I can step my engine down a tiny bit and get 1.5 tons free for AMS with no real impact to mech performance. With hill climb and gyros being very common from ops now I'm also finding it easier to get in and out of cover faster and getting lrm5 spammed is pretty irrelevant now. Honestly 3xac5 is far more dangerous than 6xlrm5.

Stood largely in the open last night against an LRM Griffin and LRM Archer and was able to put them both down with my MAD IIC while they were raining on me on Polar at about 500m. AMS and structure quirks plus an enhanced coolshot to let me immediately focus the other one made it relatively easy. A WHR and a Shad at the same range with direct fire would have killed me if I hadn't moved to cover.

I get that LRMs may feel better now but the combo of AMS and structure/armor buffs plus the buffs to make direct fire cooler and more accurate have ended up making LRMs even worse against semi-competent players.

try 6 atlas' shoulder to shoulder with max survival and ams. You don't even get hit by lurms. They are just free money while you kill stuff.

[Willard Phule]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

With the increase in velocity, reduction of radar derp and generally slower mechs LRMs are a bit stronger.

However survival tree is exponentially better against LRMs because of spread damage letting me maximize the mech wife armor/structure buff. That 1 point of AMS overload is a given as it's the fastest way to get the 2 middle points of skeletal density means it's a given on most my mechs. I can step my engine down a tiny bit and get 1.5 tons free for AMS with no real impact to mech performance. With hill climb and gyros being very common from ops now I'm also finding it easier to get in and out of cover faster and getting lrm5 spammed is pretty irrelevant now. Honestly 3xac5 is far more dangerous than 6xlrm5.

Stood largely in the open last night against an LRM Griffin and LRM Archer and was able to put them both down with my MAD IIC while they were raining on me on Polar at about 500m. AMS and structure quirks plus an enhanced coolshot to let me immediately focus the other one made it relatively easy. A WHR and a Shad at the same range with direct fire would have killed me if I hadn't moved to cover.

I get that LRMs may feel better now but the combo of AMS and structure/armor buffs plus the buffs to make direct fire cooler and more accurate have ended up making LRMs even worse against semi-competent players.

I'll take your word for it. I'm not bothering with AMS until LAMS. I'm doing fine as it is. There's always a teammate I can hide behind if necessary.

[Ivan Romatovich Kerensky]

Lurms are dead now. Solo IS mech spec'd with full structure, AMS overload and direct fire weapons beats LRM spec'd clan mech everytime provided IS pilot has at least average marksmanship.

Same goes in reverse. Triple ams nova spec'd with both overloads takes out 95% of a lurm 80 mauler's rounds alpha'd.

Go as a team spec'd vs lurms... Lurm boats are effectively nothing more than free damage.

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

I get that LRMs may feel better now but the combo of AMS and structure/armor buffs plus the buffs to make direct fire cooler and more accurate have ended up making LRMs even worse against semi-competent players.

Still trying to test/get on with my LRMs with the new skill system. So I have no immediate comments on how LRMs work currently. So far, they seem "better" in the aspect of locking abilities (ECM and Radar Dep is lessened now), but yes, there is more health also typically on the field now.

However, though I could use to test it more, I will mention that missiles can get enhanced crit skills, which may help once a target's armor has been opened up. May make LRMs as a good counter to rolling damage away from a vulnerable side. (Spread often counters some elements of side shielding.) So there is that to also consider.

So far, though things are still early (and I have not been on as much as I would like with the new system) I haven't been seeing much AMS still. Of course, AMS is less (but more) effective against me, as I don't tend to boat (as previously mentioned).

ccrider, on 21 May 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

try 6 atlas' shoulder to shoulder with max survival and ams. You don't even get hit by lurms. They are just free money while you kill stuff.

And that is one of the (plausible?) reasons why I never boat LRMs. Always bring some direct fire weapons (if not have direct fire weapons being the primary and LRMs as a secondary aspect). You may not be great in that specific situation, but you'll at least still be able to "hold your own" and help the team, instead of just feeding the (hypothetical) enemy AMS.

(Although, I think a 12 man Atlas team with AMS to counter LRMs specifically as a team would be unlikely, and situationally dependent upon if the enemy has LRMs or not. Then again, 12 Atlases are still going to be trouble...)

[MischiefSC]

The crit damage isn't enough to offset the increased armor and more importantly the power of easily available AMS Overload and 1 or 2 AMS on 4-6 mechs.

Saw it tonight, wehad that setup on Skirmish on Alpine. Three dedicated LRM boats and a couple mechs with LRMs on the other side, probably 120 or 140 tubes shooting and we were Clans and we were probably taking 20 or 30 missiles total out of that. 1/3 of the enemy teams total firepower they had to put out on us reduced by a good 80% at the cost of 1.25 KPH and a few mechs.

The lock time and crit damage is largely irrelevant. The same tonnage you spend on ECM is more useful as AMS now.

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

The crit damage isn't enough to offset the increased armor and more importantly the power of easily available AMS Overload and 1 or 2 AMS on 4-6 mechs.

Saw it tonight, wehad that setup on Skirmish on Alpine. Three dedicated LRM boats and a couple mechs with LRMs on the other side, probably 120 or 140 tubes shooting and we were Clans and we were probably taking 20 or 30 missiles total out of that. 1/3 of the enemy teams total firepower they had to put out on us reduced by a good 80% at the cost of 1.25 KPH and a few mechs.

The lock time and crit damage is largely irrelevant. The same tonnage you spend on ECM is more useful as AMS now.

As said, I haven't tested enough yet, and not been on as much as I would have liked. So if AMS is becoming more of a thing, then I'm not aware of it.

I also will say, its once again a team that probably had too many LRMs, and they were probably boated (as seems to be the norm), and the LRM mechs probably stood in the back...

I wonder if I'm still going to end up hearing on the forums how useless AMS still is... Of course when they are using it by themselves, standing alone by themselves, and having only a single AMS and facing several boats of LRMs landing on their head as they stand out in cover "because I has AMS"... (I've heard it many times...)


Ah LRMs. The ever fickle to balance weapon, with so many counters that can be used against it... Too much change in one way, and they become too much and no one seems to take the counters. Too much the other way, and even the counters become unneeded (or so it seems sometimes). Not to mention the forums... where everything is OP and yet UP at the same exact time (depending upon what thread you are in and who you are talking to).

[Willard Phule]

MischiefSC, on 21 May 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

The crit damage isn't enough to offset the increased armor and more importantly the power of easily available AMS Overload and 1 or 2 AMS on 4-6 mechs.

Saw it tonight, wehad that setup on Skirmish on Alpine. Three dedicated LRM boats and a couple mechs with LRMs on the other side, probably 120 or 140 tubes shooting and we were Clans and we were probably taking 20 or 30 missiles total out of that. 1/3 of the enemy teams total firepower they had to put out on us reduced by a good 80% at the cost of 1.25 KPH and a few mechs.

The lock time and crit damage is largely irrelevant. The same tonnage you spend on ECM is more useful as AMS now.

I've seen it too. Saw something else that I'll assume is the exception that proves the rule....

Was stuck on a PUG team with 9-10 LRM boats (yeah, we lost, duh) and the other side was big and sporting lots of AMS. They actually ran out of AMS ammo at one point and just started dropping like flies. Was pretty funny to see...but I would imagine that doesn't happen often.

[Damnedtroll]

Problem of LRM is boating... a couple of mech with an lrm launcher and 1 or 2 tons of ammo can be useful. Just to close range and harass the enemy to have a nicer ride to medium range.

A mech with 6 lrm launchers, no backup weapon and 12 tons of ammo is a nuisance... yeah ''sometimes'' he get high scores but most of the times he doesn't help for the win...

[Tesunie]

Damnedtroll, on 23 May 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:

Problem of LRM is boating... a couple of mech with an lrm launcher and 1 or 2 tons of ammo can be useful. Just to close range and harass the enemy to have a nicer ride to medium range.

A mech with 6 lrm launchers, no backup weapon and 12 tons of ammo is a nuisance... yeah ''sometimes'' he get high scores but most of the times he doesn't help for the win...

I'd have to agree with this mostly. I mean, there is a place for boating and there are people who can pull it off rather well fairly consistently, but I feel LRMs are better paired with other weapons.

I'd say we end up with LRM bloating problems, more than LRMs being a problem on their own. It's like water. Some water is good to have. Too much water, and you drown...

[Willard Phule]

Ivan Romatovich, on 21 May 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

Lurms are dead now. Solo IS mech spec'd with full structure, AMS overload and direct fire weapons beats LRM spec'd clan mech everytime provided IS pilot has at least average marksmanship.

Same goes in reverse. Triple ams nova spec'd with both overloads takes out 95% of a lurm 80 mauler's rounds alpha'd.

Go as a team spec'd vs lurms... Lurm boats are effectively nothing more than free damage.

Hope you're carrying enough ammo for it. Enough taters on one side, you won't be able to swat 'em all forever.

[Tesunie]

Willard Phule, on 23 May 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Hope you're carrying enough ammo for it. Enough taters on one side, you won't be able to swat 'em all forever.

But notice the call line there, if the enemy team is "spec'd against LRMs".

This is an automatic assumption that a team will spec to counter LRMs together, and that the other team are spec'd to using LRMs (boats).

[Pat Kell]

If there is cover, the enemy team is spec'd to counter LRM's...

[Leone]

*Ahem*

Pat Kell, on 19 May 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

I have bowed out of this conversation several pages ago and will continue to bow out. Good Luck.

There's better threads to be Pat.

~Leone.

[Tesunie]

Pat Kell, on 23 May 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

If there is cover, the enemy team is spec'd to counter LRM's...

Using cover and specing to counter LRMs are different. One is player related skill, the other equipment and skill tree configurations.

Just saying...

[Pat Kell]

Tesunie, on 23 May 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Using cover and specing to counter LRMs are different. One is player related skill, the other equipment and skill tree configurations.

Just saying...

completely missing the point but I did say that I was bowing out and I went back on that...sorry...out.