365 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

"OP" is determined more like "if you don't have this one thing, your chances of a win are dramatically reduced if the opposition does."

Just sayin'.

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 December 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

"OP" is determined more like "if you don't have this one thing, your chances of a win are dramatically reduced if the opposition does."

Just sayin'.

If you are playing on a team that is on comms and you are not bringing the best Mechs / most tonnage / complimentary builds, then it is your teamwork / strategy that is the problem, not the Mechs that your opponents bring. If you are playing as a PUG, then you take the Mechs / loadouts that you are best with and then hope your teammates did the same (in-game comms may or may not improve your chances as well).

[ROSS-128]

Clan mechs are generally OP compared to IS mechs.

Good teams and strong units are way more OP than clan mechs, so it's not all bad news.

But good players are drawn toward strong mechs, so it's not much good news either. If IS mechs were stronger, the faction would have an easier time attracting top players. It would start happening right around the point where they are no longer needed, but ain't that just how it goes.

[MovinTarget]

Grus, on 28 November 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

too easy, deathstrike.

What build?

[MovinTarget]

ROSS-128, on 02 December 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

But good players are drawn toward strong mechs, so it's not much good news either. If IS mechs were stronger, the faction would have an easier time attracting top players. It would start happening right around the point where they are no longer needed, but ain't that just how it goes.

If the top players wanted to play easy mode, would they be top players?

I have dropped with/against lots of top players, they can drop either side and do well. If they are grouped up, they can roll opponents regardless.

It's not the tech that specifically that makes them better, it's that they's figured out how to make the tech work for them regardless of the faction their with. They don't get caught up in TT/RP fanboyisms (well, when they are going tryhard mode, at least). They have a large selection of mechs and know which ones are going to serve their purpose in a given scenario.

Top players only use tech as a crutch in the sense that they beat taters over the head with it. They may have their preferences, but they are not limited to one side or another.

I mean, why do a lot of the good merc units not just stay clan? There are plenty of low-population, high payout clan factions...

Nope they bounce back and forth for variety and because they can win either way.

Edited by MovinTarget, 03 December 2017 - 04:00 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

MovinTarget, on 02 December 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

If the top players wanted to play easy mode, would they be top players?

I have dropped with/against lots of top players, they can drop either side and do well. If they are grouped up, they can roll opponents regardless.

It's not the tech that specifically that makes them better, it's that they's figured out how to make the tech work for them regardless of the faction their with. They don't get caught up in TT/RP fanboyisms (well, when they are going tryhard mode, at least). They have a large selection of mechs and know which ones are going to serve their purpose in a given scenario.

Top players only use tech as a crutch in the sense that they beat taters over the head with it. They may have their preferences, but they are not limited to one side or another.

I mean, why do a lot of the good merc units not just stay clan? There are plenty of low-population, high payout clan factions...

Nope they bounce back and forth for variety and because they can win either way.

I have never seen a top player that wins every single fight in MWO, the only things that make them top players are that they know how to make the best use of their weaponry and are good at positioning and teamwork. There is no Mech in the game that can make a player unable to be defeated, unless they are hacking.

[MovinTarget]

Right, show me a mech that is truly OP and I'll show you a mech that mech that is getting nerfed... They might put it on sale first, but it will get nerfed ;p

And I'm not saying top players always win, I'm just saying that they can win pretty effectively either way b/c they know what they are doing, so I don't necessarily agree that "all top players flock to clans because its easier"

I think part of it is boredom, they look to mix it up. I think part of it is even "know thy enemy" as dropping in the mechs you end up fighting gives you a lot of insight into how to beat that mech/loadout.

[ROSS-128]

MovinTarget, on 02 December 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

If the top players wanted to play easy mode, would they be top players?

I have dropped with/against lots of top players, they can drop either side and do well. If they are grouped up, they can roll opponents regardless.

It's not the tech that specifically that makes them better, it's that they's figured out how to make the tech work for them regardless of the faction their with. They don't get caught up in TT/RP fanboyisms (well, when they are going tryhard mode, at least). They have a large selection of mechs and know which ones are going to serve their purpose in a given scenario.

Top players only use tech as a crutch in the sense that they beat taters over the head with it. They may have their preferences, but they are not limited to one side or another.

I mean, why do a lot of the good merc units not just stay clan? There are plenty of low-population, high payout clan factions...

Nope they bounce back and forth for variety and because they can win either way.

It's not necessarily about "easy mode", easy mode is fighting pugs. Top players use OP stuff to get an advantage over other top players. However, when most of that is on one faction, that faction ends up stacked. Some teams do buck the trend just so they can actually have an opponent, but overall the heavy skew towards the Clans exists for a reason and I assure you it's not because they all like the lore.

It's just like how in sports all the professional athletes use the best, most advanced gear the rules will allow (and some that they don't, such as steroids). That doesn't make it easy mode since they're still facing other pros, but they are exploiting every advantage they can get because that's the nature of high level competition.

[MovinTarget]

So i maintain my question: If players are trying to take an easy route how can they be the best?

If ya can't say "against all odds" ya get an asterisk next to your epeen stroke.

[ROSS-128]

MovinTarget, on 03 December 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

So i maintain my question: If players are trying to take an easy route how can they be the best?

If ya can't say "against all odds" ya get an asterisk next to your epeen stroke.

Why don't professional sports teams take the field with as little equipment as possible, of the lowest quality possible to improve their "bragging rights"? Why don't soccer teams take the field barefoot instead of wearing cleats? Why don't racing teams take a 1960 Trabant to the track instead of engineering a cutting-edge racecar down to the micrometer?

Because they're facing other teams that are more or less as good as they are. If they handicap themselves they are likely to lose, and "yeah but we didn't bring our gear" isn't going to hold much water.

Look at it this way: if you and Rafael Nadal (the current world tennis champion) traded tennis rackets, he'd still beat you hands-down because he's the world tennis champion and you're not.

But if he took your racket to the tennis championship, he'd be at a disadvantage and very likely to lose because the #2 tennis player is likely within 1% of his own skill, and that tiny handicap from using your cheap tennis racket might make the difference.

[KingCobra]

Here is my take on Clan Vs IS mechs in FP =there is a slight advantage in Clan mechs but not enough a skilled IS team cannot win games against clan teams.

Now here is my take on CW/FP in general organized 8-12 man teams will always win against small groups and pugs/randoms/casual players 90 % of the time this was known a month after CW was implemented by PGI what 4 years ago.

PGI has listened to the teams and comp player on CW/FP design and the rest of the community has suffered as a result for 4 years and the population has declined because of those decisions.

PGI should have made 2 drop modes for CW/FP long ago 1 for 8-12 man teams to drop against each other and small groups casuals/pugs/randoms to drop in the other cw/fp mm queue.

If PGI would have done this long ago we could have retained some of the 500,000 players we lost just after closed beta when they decided MWO was not going to be the game they wanted to play and fund and the game was leaning towards a E-sport NHUA style FPS where it was almost 1 shot kills from OP alpha shots from any meta style that came into flavor that CW/FP cycle used by organized teams.

Edited by KingCobra, 03 December 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[MovinTarget]

ROSS-128, on 03 December 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Why don't professional sports teams take the field with as little equipment as possible, of the lowest quality possible to improve their "bragging rights"? Why don't soccer teams take the field barefoot instead of wearing cleats? Why don't racing teams take a 1960 Trabant to the track instead of engineering a cutting-edge racecar down to the micrometer?

Because they're facing other teams that are more or less as good as they are. If they handicap themselves they are likely to lose, and "yeah but we didn't bring our gear" isn't going to hold much water.

Look at it this way: if you and Rafael Nadal (the current world tennis champion) traded tennis rackets, he'd still beat you hands-down because he's the world tennis champion and you're not.

But if he took your racket to the tennis championship, he'd be at a disadvantage and very likely to lose because the #2 tennis player is likely within 1% of his own skill, and that tiny handicap from using your cheap tennis racket might make the difference.

Thank you, do know how often people can't articulate decent rebuttal? That was good, no sarcasm at all.

However, If Nadal was playing a match where there is literally nothing on the line... no money, no ranking, nothing... and it was asserted that the only reason he's #1 was because of his equipment? Don't you think he'd want to take a chance at beating the opposition with something else, just so that he could prove that it was raw, natural talent that made him great?

That's the case here, in FP anyway, comp play is a different story, but in FP, there are no stakes other than bragging rights, really... for the players that have their mechbays and all the cbills they can spend? What else is there?

So, if someone were to accuse them of only being good because they only use OP mechs... I think they *would* be willing to prove their superiority, if they really think they are teh sh!t, by going for what is perceived as "suboptimal", whether its switching sides or just dropping in non-meta. They want to be able to say, "I can take your crappiest mech and turn it into a death machine."

So, if players are not willing to risk their "top player" status by proving it is their skill/experience that sets them apart, are they really top players?

[MischiefSC]

MovinTarget, on 03 December 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

So i maintain my question: If players are trying to take an easy route how can they be the best?

If ya can't say "against all odds" ya get an asterisk next to your epeen stroke.

Winning > losing. Losing a match where you played better but just lost on tech sucks a lot.

So good players and teams gravitate to the best mechs.

Beyond that it's a comfort thing - why use something that's just flat out inferior? How is that 'better' than using something that's just inherently superior?

Being good is not and has never been about epeen stroking. Everyone who is very competitive is universally the most competitive with themselves. Doing better, performing better. Learning to be good at something takes time, effort and energy. Why waste the time to get good at something that is inherently mediocre or worse? Spend the time and energy getting good at something that's already inherently better.

Top players are not top players based on anyones opinion of them. They're top players because they do the best. By your logic Olympic athletes are not really Gold Medal quality unless they're wearing an old pair of Converse and carrying a backpack full of LPs and 8 track cassettes or something equally silly.

Success is not measured by 'did you use the least effective tools and still succeed'. It's measured by 'who won'. Not cheats or hax, just superior application of available resources.

[MovinTarget]

Again the real world is an apples to oranges comparison for a lot of reasons. Last i checked FP players don't get paid or endorsed IRL for their FP performance.

Mischief, you can't tell me you've fought win clan mercs that turned around and spanked good clanners just to shut them up.

Mercs nowadays are in a unique position to demonstrate superiority because they can face anyone and beat anyone over time, by playing lots and switching sides... it wasn't always like that back when we could only face border states and you could end up chasing units all over try to catch them.

But i also see your point that if it doesn't matter to the person whether they are tops or not, why bother... but for the ones that have a chip on their shoulder and/or looking to prove themselves... domininating both sides kind of supports the perception that they are on top.

Its funny that people seem to be acting like this doesn't happen, but is happening with units that split their time roughly 50/50 and don't see much of a drop off in performance.

Edited by MovinTarget, 03 December 2017 - 10:07 AM.

[ROSS-128]

I will also say this: clan mechs are not exactly superior *across the board* like they used to be, but they are still generally the best mechs for the game as it currently exists due to the meta.

As I'm sure many are aware, the meta right now generally revolves around alpha striking with lasers at long range, using cover (and staggered fire from teammates, since you only need ~1/4 to 1/3 of your team to nuke an individual target) to protect you in the cooldown period. Who can put out the highest laser alpha out at long range? The clans. This applies in both Invasion and Quickplay.

However, I'm sure many people here have noticed that the Inner Sphere seems to have a strong scouting game. That's because the high-heat laser meta breaks down in scouting mode. 4 light mechs can't put out a lot of alpha, have a hard time cooling lasers, and don't have enough bodies to rotate fire and keep an enemy pinned.

To compound matters, light mechs are fast. This means they have an easier time rushing an overheated mech to punish it with DPS. Light mechs are also more vulnerable to PPFLD, because they don't have a lot of armor on any individual component but rely very heavily on damage-spreading to survive. What has good, low-heat DPS with PPFLD? IS Autocannons.

The introduction of rocket launchers is an additional boon to IS scouting. A ~20-80 damage single-shot weapon (depending on how many and what size you manage to fit) doesn't mean much to 12-48 mechs who are mostly heavies. Against 4 light mechs though? A RL salvo followed by autocannons is potentially a strong opening move.

Of course, it's not an absolute advantage: Clan Lights are faster, so savvy Clan teams can win on intel. Additionally, the Stormcrow is a strong meta mech that can still come out on top in pug v pug (because pugs will tend not to use the aggressive isolation tactics needed to take down a Stormcrow with ACs). But highly organized IS teams should see a lot of consistent success in scouting, especially if they can work out tactics to force the clanners into a brawl.

So the addition of scouting combined with Newtech (perhaps more accurately Foundtech?) has helped IS. Will IS be able to leverage their scouting advantage to level the playing field in Invasion? I don't know. That can hinge both on the usefulness of scouting, and whether the IS can get top teams to come for the scouting and stay for invasion.

[Y E O N N E]

Ed Steele, on 02 December 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

If you are playing on a team that is on comms and you are not bringing the best Mechs / most tonnage / complimentary builds, then it is your teamwork / strategy that is the problem, not the Mechs that your opponents bring. If you are playing as a PUG, then you take the Mechs / loadouts that you are best with and then hope your teammates did the same (in-game comms may or may not improve your chances as well).

That is entirely besides the point.

[MrMagolor]

But where are the noobs in this discussion?

[MovinTarget]

Lol we skerred them off!

[ROSS-128]

I'm technically a noob, I'm just one who has a knack for grasping and discussing theory while lacking the experience and/or coordination to actually put any of it into practice.

I think the main thing I've been struggling with lately is figuring out how to contribute to a push just right, without blocking allies and/or being the person who gets spotted first and focused down. Maybe it's just something that becomes a gut feeling after being the first person to get nuked enough times, I don't know.

[MovinTarget]

ROSS-128, on 03 December 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'm technically a noob, I'm just one who has a knack for grasping and discussing theory while lacking the experience and/or coordination to actually put any of it into practice.

I think the main thing I've been struggling with lately is figuring out how to contribute to a push just right, without blocking allies and/or being the person who gets spotted first and focused down. Maybe it's just something that becomes a gut feeling after being the first person to get nuked enough times, I don't know.

spacing and situational awareness. It comes with practice. Oh, and seriously, don't bother pushing unless the rest of the team is pushing... otherwise you'll be pushing by yourself lol...