365 replies to this topic

[ROSS-128]

Didn't I already say that a good team against a bad team can overcome tech advantage? That doesn't automatically make the tech advantage existing perfectly OK.

Of course if you're just going to stat shame, you should at least bother to use a source that provides accurate stats. I don't claim to be an expert player, hell I'm sure I've called myself a noob earlier in this very thread, but I *have* played over 800 matches. That's a whole lot more than 7, so pardon me if I think your source is a wee bit off.

It certainly proves my claim that you're too lazy to put up a real argument though.

[denAirwalkerrr]

I stated my point and supported it. For you aside from whine what to do in case of BLR nerf and standart issue 'teamwork OP' I've seen nothing. Point is you played them over a year ago thus can't be competent in current balance.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 December 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[ROSS-128]

So you're also too lazy to read the thread, because we have going on 17 pages of people discussing what advantages the clans have, and not just me.

You want to dismiss me out of hand because you don't like me and I'm a dirty Steiner? Fine, take it up with MischiefSC, I'm sure he'll be happy to explain it to you. I'll give you a hint: you'll probably hear a lot about "crit slots", "tonnage", and "damage".

He can even tell you a story about how MS spent a whole week trying to carry FP for IS, and after switching back to Clans they were able to undo all of their own gains in two days.

[denAirwalkerrr]

I'm talking to you not to thread. You stated your point that as I said 'teamwork OP' and 'CL4MS OP' and go give me a big post why I'm wrong. Yes I hate you dirty Steiner.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 December 2017 - 01:01 PM.

[ROSS-128]

denAirwalkerrr, on 26 December 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm talking to you not to thread. You stdted your point that as I said 'teamwork OP' and go give me a big post why clans not op. Yes I hate you dirty Steiner.

Why should I have to prove that clans aren't OP when I'm saying that they are?

I've stated my position before in this very thread:
Clans are OP.
Teamwork is more OP, so if IS learns teamwork they can win anyway.
That doesn't mean we can ignore Clans.
But IS players can learn Teamwork and complain about Clans at the same time.

[denAirwalkerrr]

1. You think so
2. No argues
3. As I said typical 'CL4MS OP' with no proofs
4. Or simply start bringing adequate builds at first place

[ROSS-128]

Clan weapons are lighter, take up less slots, have a better heat/damage ratio, and have a longer base effective range. Clans also have safe XLs, and have two-slot DHS to help them spend all that free tonnage they gain from their weapons and engine on cooling.

They also have half-size endo and ferro. Sure, they can't choose whether they have it or not, but that just means the mechs that do have it (mainly Endo, since Endo > Ferro even on clans) rise to the top. More free weight and slots to cram full of heat sinks.

IS has some things that partially close the gap, but not completely. Quirks, on a handful of mechs. LFEs thanks to the civil war tech, the poor man's ClanXL.

But Clans have gotten help recently too: the de-quirkening massively reigned in IS quirks, and the new skill tree allows Clans to imitate all the best IS quirks of the past. Range? Clans can pick it up in the skill tree, and it's a percentage, which is great for their higher base values. Heat gen? Same. Duration reduction? Yep. Cooldown reduction? Got that too.

Learning to play is certainly a good thing, as is learning what good builds are. I absolutely encourage it. Get on the Inner Sphere teamspeak server too so you can find coordinated teams, it makes a huge difference. It'll let you beat quite a lot of the unwashed masses of clanners who don't bother to take full advantage of their equipment.

But you're still fighting uphill, and you'll still be in for a tough time to say the least when you do run into the clanner groups who also learned to play and teamed up.

[denAirwalkerrr]

IS have:
BLR - best mech for long range
3xUAC2 DRG-5N better than 6xUAC2 NTG
2xMRM30 IV-Four - best brawling heavy in game (being the lightest heavy possible)
4xSRM4 ASN-21 - best brawling medium in game (being the lightest medium possible)
2xUAC5+2xUAC10 ANH-2A - best dakka assault in game
4xUAC5 Sleipnir is slightly worse than MKII-B
5xMPL WLF-2 on pair with MG MLX and ACH

Clans have:
better mid range laservomit on EBJ/HBR/HBK-IIC-A
PPC poptart SMN/HBK-IIC-A > countered by BLR
MKII-B, DS, MAD-IIC are only viable assaults
MG Lights

Here's current FP and QP and to some extend competitive meta for you. You can talk on clan XL/Ferro/Endo/DHS size/Damage/Range as much as you want if you don't know current meta better go cry to creators of Battletech universe for making clans OP compared to IS.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 December 2017 - 02:24 PM.

[ROSS-128]

Ah yes, IS gets to be good at ballistics and missiles. Because those two weapon groups have been soooo relevant.

So you want to simultaneously argue that IS is OP (good luck there!) while also playing the "too bad, clans are SUPPOSED to be OP" card? Looks like you're talking out of your sig more than your brain, Mr. Clan Jade Falcon.

If we want to talk tier lists, let's take a look at the actual lists shall we?

Meta tier list, tier 1:
(duplicates are due to variants/different loadouts)
Solid T1:
Kodiak
Kodiak
MAD-IIC
Night Gyr
Timberwolf

Low T1:
Battlemaster (Hey, finally an IS mech! Of course it's the Battlemaster.)
Different Battlemaster
Warhammer
Different Warhammer
Night Gyr
Summoner
Hunchback IIC
Supernova
Timberwolf
Timberwolf

So, counting doubles/variants that's 4 IS mechs and 11 Clan mechs. Not counting doubles/variants, 2 IS mechs and 7 Clan mechs. God, look at that IS just dominating the meta. They have a whole 2 mechs up there! Why, any good Trueborn knows that's 2 too many.


Well, let's take a look at competitive then! This list on the source is by range brackets, so let's look at the tier 1s there.

750+:
Battlemaster (no surprise or argument, we do have One Mech™)
Battlemaster
Grasshopper
Hunchback IIC
Night Gyr
Hunchback IIC
Shadow Cat
Kodiak

Total: 3 IS, 5 Clan. 2 and 4 if not counting doubles. Such IS dominance amirite?

500-750:
Kodiak
Night Gyr
Timber Wolf
Hunchback IIC
Warhammer
Mauler
Summoner

Total: 2 IS 5 Clan Man, it's like there's a pattern here or something. A pattern of IS only having 2 mechs.

250-500:
Kodiak
Warhammer
Night Gyr
Hunchback IIC
Battlemaster
Marauder
Battlemaster

Now there's the IS' time in the sun. 4IS 3 clan, or 3 and 3 if not counting duplicates. Pulling *even* with clans? Kerensky would be ashamed. It's pretty easy to guess what happens here: this range bracket includes the magic range of 270. AC20 and ISML say hi. Also HGauss now, I suppose.

0-250:
Griffin
Atlas (okay, that one actually *is* a surprise, I bet ML+AC20+SRM has something to do with that)
Kodiak
Griffin
Timberwolf
Hunchback 4SP
Huntsman
Shadow Hawk
Nova

Total: 4 IS and 5 Clan, 3 IS and 5 Clan if not counting duplicates.

Why isn't the total number of mechs the same for every tier? I have no idea, you'll have to ask the people who made the list.

Boy, that sure is a lot of Clan mechs in those top tiers. Oh well, you know, when you throw enough mechs at the wall something is sure to stick... oh wait, IS has way more mechs than Clans but only a fraction of the top-tiers. It's almost like IS mechs are weaker on average or something.

[K O Z A K]

ROSS-128, on 26 December 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Meta tier list, tier 1:
(duplicates are due to variants/different loadouts)
Solid T1:
Kodiak
Kodiak
MAD-IIC
Night Gyr
Timberwolf

lol, kodiak is top tier?.....TIMBERWOLF?!?!? stop it, you're killing us

where are you getting these lists? metamechs? it's a little bit dated

was dropping FW clans for a while, majority of games 2k+, bought/setup a bunch of FW decks for IS then switched, and guess what...most games 2k+ (minus the stupid game mode rush drops), on average my damage per drop did go down by about 200 or so, I suspect it has to do with clans having to go through more armour/structure overall

[Ironically Ironclad Irony]

Since this poor dead horse is still getting flogged...

Please, just stop, no one will be able to prove jack squat until there is a MM for FP that will pair up equivalent talent...

...soooo never...

This why people keep going back to the fact if you don't group up, gear up, and act like a team, chances are you are going to face a superior enemy, regardless of the side you are on.

If you don't do everything you can to win (and hoping you'll fill in the 12th slot of a premade every drop doesn't count), you are basically screwing yourself over.

[NocturnalBeast]

Ironically Ironclad Irony, on 26 December 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

Since this poor dead horse is still getting flogged...

Please, just stop, no one will be able to prove jack squat until there is a MM for FP that will pair up equivalent talent...

...soooo never...

This why people keep going back to the fact if you don't group up, gear up, and act like a team, chances are you are going to face a superior enemy, regardless of the side you are on.

If you don't do everything you can to win (and hoping you'll fill in the 12th slot of a premade every drop doesn't count), you are basically screwing yourself over.

Yes, I will finish beating the dead horse: "Teamwork is OP!"

[ROSS-128]

Well of course, that's why I have also been recommending that people group up, gear up, and learn to team precisely to counteract the odds that are stacked against them.

It's almost as if advantages can come from two different sources at the same time or something.

[Laser Kiwi]

Ross your info is outdated.

Kodiak isn't meta anymore, and no mention of the mad cat 2.

Timberwolf got agility slaughtered, its an ok mid range mech

No mention of the linebacker

Actually metamechs is a great place to start but not as meta as it was.

Also kind of ruined your point, even if there are 2 mechs in any one group thats enough to make a decent deck in the range slot. you dont need 4 you need multiples of the same chassis

[Horseman]

ROSS-128, on 26 December 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Ah yes, IS gets to be good at ballistics and missiles. Because those two weapon groups have been soooo relevant.

So you want to simultaneously argue that IS is OP (good luck there!) while also playing the "too bad, clans are SUPPOSED to be OP" card? Looks like you're talking out of your sig more than your brain, Mr. Clan Jade Falcon.

If we want to talk tier lists, let's take a look at the actual lists shall we?

Meta tier list, tier 1:(...)

Total: 4 IS and 5 Clan, 3 IS and 5 Clan if not counting duplicates.

Why isn't the total number of mechs the same for every tier? I have no idea, you'll have to ask the people who made the list.

Boy, that sure is a lot of Clan mechs in those top tiers. Oh well, you know, when you throw enough mechs at the wall something is sure to stick... oh wait, IS has way more mechs than Clans but only a fraction of the top-tiers. It's almost like IS mechs are weaker on average or something.

You just went and copied the list from http://metamechs.com...meta-tier-list/ . Look at when it's dated from:

Quote

Supernova Patch (9-March-2017)

This was before engine desync, skill tree, newtech and CERML nerfs (among other things). The list is simply no longer valid.

[denAirwalkerrr]

ROSS-128, on 26 December 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

Solid T1:
Kodiak
Kodiak
Night Gyr
Timberwolf

Low T1:
Night Gyr
Supernova
Timberwolf
Timberwolf

750+:
Grasshopper
Night Gyr
Shadow Cat
Kodiak

500-750:
Kodiak
Night Gyr
Timber Wolf
Warhammer
Mauler

250-500:
Kodiak
Warhammer
Night Gyr
Marauder
Battlemaster

0-250:
Griffin
Atlas
Kodiak
Griffin
Timberwolf
Hunchback 4SP
Shadow Hawk

All of these are outdated and is Tier 3 at very best. Q.E.D. zero sence of current mwo meta.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 December 2017 - 10:34 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

denAirwalkerrr, on 26 December 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

All of these are outdated and is Tier 3 at very best. Q.E.D. zero sence of current mwo meta.

Plus the tiers should be separated by weight class.

[ROSS-128]

At least I bothered to look up a list, unlike you who just sit there going "nu uh, not good enough".

If the MWO championships are anything to go by though, the meta hasn't changed nearly as much as you claim. Only six IS mechs, three of which were Wolfhounds. Over twice as many Clan mechs. ERLL spam is still king. Some new Clan mechs replaced older Clan mechs, and that's it. So just waving your hands around and saying "the meta's changed" doesn't do any good when it clearly hasn't changed much.

Hell, I bet it's still possible to do that fun little trick where you can build a 65 ton Clan mech that'll beat a 75 ton IS mech in alpha, DPS, top speed, and cooling rate at the same time while still taking about as much armor as a 65 ton chassis will allow. If only Smurphy or something like that would include the skill tree so we can get a better view of the finished product.

If you want to continue to insist that the meta has somehow completely turned on its head even since then, well I'm going to need to see sources and math. "Cuz I said so" ain't gonna cut it. Because who are you, the Pope?

For every Battlemaster or Wolfhound getting its time in the sun, there are dozens of less famous IS mechs shivering in crowded mech shelters waiting for a loving family to give them a home. For some of them it may already be too late, but if you act now you can save one of these mechs from the scrapyard. Call Krazy Karl's Used Mechs, and adopt an IS mech today.

[denAirwalkerrr]

ROSS-128, on 27 December 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

At least I bothered to look up a list

[MovinTarget]

ROSS-128, on 27 December 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

At least I bothered to look up a list, unlike you who just sit there going "nu uh, not good enough".

If the MWO championships are anything to go by though, the meta hasn't changed nearly as much as you claim. Only six IS mechs, three of which were Wolfhounds. Over twice as many Clan mechs. ERLL spam is still king. Some new Clan mechs replaced older Clan mechs, and that's it. So just waving your hands around and saying "the meta's changed" doesn't do any good when it clearly hasn't changed much.

Hell, I bet it's still possible to do that fun little trick where you can build a 65 ton Clan mech that'll beat a 75 ton IS mech in alpha, DPS, top speed, and cooling rate at the same time while still taking about as much armor as a 65 ton chassis will allow. If only Smurphy or something like that would include the skill tree so we can get a better view of the finished product.

If you want to continue to insist that the meta has somehow completely turned on its head even since then, well I'm going to need to see sources and math. "Cuz I said so" ain't gonna cut it. Because who are you, the Pope?

For every Battlemaster or Wolfhound getting its time in the sun, there are dozens of less famous IS mechs shivering in crowded mech shelters waiting for a loving family to give them a home. For some of them it may already be too late, but if you act now you can save one of these mechs from the scrapyard. Call Krazy Karl's Used Mechs, and adopt an IS mech today.

I won't dismiss Comp play completely, but I would posit that FP is a different beast and, apart from objective dunkers, requires a diferent type of mentality than either comp or QP.

This is why many of the builds that thrive in FP fail elsewhere, and many of the QP build do not fare well in FP.

Comp does share some similarities in that you know the map/mode/side (not always in FP unless siege match) ahead of time. this means you can be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more tactical than QP ever will be.

The different is in the preponderance of mechs, each side brings *40* more mechs to a FP match than comp so you have very different tactics like the "set-up" wave that may not do a ton of damage but preps for the next wave that wrecks face...

So I would agree that considering Comp mechs would make more sense than QP meta, however, with the plethora of scenarios that occur in FP, you need more variety.