51 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Straight speed, of course the Viper is faster. This isn't a game of just speed, however. The complete package counts, here. Viper loses limbs, especially legs, in a stiff breeze,

its not just speed where the viper excels. its agility too. its got lower arm actuators unlike the cicada. the cicada can only shoot straight which is a pretty big downside. The cicada 2B might be better at backstabbing assault mechs but when it comes to fighting other lights or fast mediums its not as good as a Viper. Which is what I mean by the Viper is better overall.

the viper also has the best jump in the game which when combined with arm weapons can allow you to shoot enemies without being shot back. especially enemies that are abysmal at vertical fighting like atlases. The Viper is one of the best vertical fighting mechs there is and you need to exploit that when you play Vipers.

Playing a viper means knowing how to use your speed, agility, and jump capabilities to exploit situations where you can do damage without being damaged in return. Its actually a necessity for a viper pilot to do that because of its lack of structure quirks. Its a playstyle the shadowcat cant even begin to emulate.

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As a long range harasser, the Viper will never approach the SHC.

but as a long range harasser the SHC will never approach a hellbringer. So I dont really see your point.

If im gonna play a long range harasser the SHC is not gonna be my first choice ever.

the SHC is always inferior to other options. Thats why I dont like it. It doesnt excel at anything and youre always better off taking something else.

but when it comes to playing a fast skirmisher/harasser the viper IMO is second to none. there simply is nothing better at that playstyle.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[Archer Magnus]

I love the CDA-3F, damn thing can fly to the moon! Just learn how to land softly.

[Pariah Devalis]

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

I dont like it.

There it is. Now you're being 100% honest, here.

I don't like the Viper. It seems inferior in every way to a light mech, to me. If I wanted to go that fast, with jump jets, and pack a similar loadout, I'd take an Arctic Cheetah. The Viper doesn't click with me because it doesn't do what a medium should do. It brings no real utility. Just the ability to say "hey, I'm a medium that moves like a light mech!"

It's very fun to pilot, and can do work. But it doesn't actually bring anything to the table.

The Shadow Cat brings options as a striker, and utility in the ECM. It's a multi-faceted mech. It's interesting. Also, it does what it does well, and is absolutely satisfying and fun to pilot.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 April 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 April 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

It's a tanky thing, but I donno. Now that it will get a Hero and C-Bill version with an ECM CT, it goes up a peg, but on the other hand, that mech really cannot afford to give up even one ton. It could do the mid range laser builds better than the SHC, though.

Highspeed ECM SPL vomit. Think it will do OK

Pariah Devalis, on 24 April 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Straight speed, of course the Viper is faster. This isn't a game of just speed, however. The complete package counts, here. Viper loses limbs, especially legs, in a stiff breeze, and suddenly that speed is a nonfactor. As a long range harasser, the Viper will never approach the SHC. As a mech capable of slipping past radar of the enemy, the Viper is forced to hug terrain, whereas the Shadow Cat can not only hug terrain, but poke out to look around safely due to its ECM. Makes it a lot easier to pick, choose, and time the attacks that are closer range.

A harasser has no need to stick around, either. The idea is you hit hard from the sides or rear, then re-position.

Viper is also a boring mech, customization wise. You listed one of the only good builds for it. Meanwhile, someone with a Shadow Cat could go, for long range, 3x ERLLas ECM, 2x LPlas ECM, 2x ERPPC ECM, 2x LRM10 2x ERMLas NARC ECM. All viable. For close range, you can get away with a 3x ASRM6 2x SPlas ECM, and soon 4x ASRM6 2x ERSLas build, and already makes a vicious light and light-medium hunter with 3x SSRM6 ECM builds.

If medium range is what the OP wants, than he is better served with the IFR, given it does laser boating better than the SHC, and is far tankier than the Viper at the expense of jump jets.

after four years, IDK why you still waste time arguing with the guy. He clearly is the most talented and knowledgeable mechwarrior to ever touch the franchise. Gosh.

Archer Magnus, on 24 April 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

I love the CDA-3F, damn thing can fly to the moon! Just learn how to land softly.

probably my biggest failing with it, lol.... I'm running out of hartford co leg actuators......

[Tarogato]

*AHEM*


Harasser is a light, not a medium.




(shoot me.)

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't like the Viper. It seems inferior in every way to a light mech, to me. If I wanted to go that fast, with jump jets, and pack a similar loadout, I'd take an Arctic Cheetah

except you cant pack a similar loadout with an arctic cheetah. there is no arctic cheetah that can run 5 pulse lasers and 4 machine guns. the viper also jumps way better than an arctic cheetah.

so no its not inferior at all to a light mech.

Quote

Harasser is a light, not a medium.

Nope. Mediums can be harassers too if they go as fast as lights like the Viper does.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2017 - 03:44 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

except you cant pack a similar loadout with an arctic cheetah. there is no arctic cheetah that can run 5 pulse lasers and 4 machine guns.

You're right. You can only pack an extra pulse laser over the Viper ... you know, the one weapon system that actually does any work until the armor is broken first... and ECM. Soon you can pack a combination build with SPlas and MG, as well, if your heart was set on it. Come the new C-Bill pods.

That said, with HMG, assuming, and this is a huge assumption here, the Viper maintains its MG quirks come skill tree change, that might be an interesting HMG mech. Too many assumptions for my comfort, here, however.

I will say the 8x ERSlas Viper can be hilarious, though. A super fast mini-Nova. But, of course, that isn't the metabuild people chase around these parts.....

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Nope. Mediums can be harassers too if they go as fast as lights like the Viper does.

This I partially agree on. The first part. Mediums can be harassers, too! Speed, however, is a little less necessary for harassment than mobility, but in any case you need a big enough payload to leverage that mobility.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 April 2017 - 03:48 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You're right. You can only pack an extra pulse laser over the Viper

if you really think 6 pulses is superior to 5 pulses and 4 machine guns then the hero viper (medusa) can run 6 pulses which are all mounted in the arms, unlike the cheetah which only has 4 in the arms and 2 torso mounted pulses.

and if youre willing to give up the set bonus quirks, the hero viper can do 6 pulses in the arms and 4 machine guns into the torso. although with the set bonus quirks the viper is more agile than the arctic cheetah.

im sorry but im really not seeing how the arctic cheetah can at all do the same thing as the viper can. the viper brings way more firepower, better agility, better torso twist, better jump, and more armor in exchange for a larger profile and no ecm.

im not saying the arctic cheetah is bad im just saying it doesnt at all fulfill the same role as the viper. because of its superior dps, the viper can core out an assault from behind way faster than an arctic cheetah can. the vipers also better at killing other lights than the arctic cheetah.

There is no other mech that can do what the viper can better than the viper does.

Edited by Khobai, 24 April 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

if you really think 6 pulses is superior to 5 pulses and 4 machine guns then the hero viper can run 6 pulses.

And you're still a larger target, without the utility of ECM that the ACH brings.

[nitra]

I think your choices are :

the viper as stated clearly in this thread, it excels at skirmishing probing and in general just working the field.

The Phoniex Hawk is another solid choice these also do a good job of harassing scouting, not so well at working the field but with some practice these are quite potent skirmishers as well. if it also had a clan xl it would be right up there with the viper.

Cicada, you have to work these mechs and work em hard almost to point of player fatigue. they are fragile extra so in the legs.
only way you will be truly effective in them is to ensure you dont take incoming fire and stay out of the firing lines. harasser yes . skirmisher no. scouting its a great mech but scouting is all it does well . besides harassing. and i would say harassing is more like annoying.

Assassin these seem like good skirmishers as long as there is chaos about and no one is paying attention to it. otherwise it busts apart pretty quick, in close range encounters . probably ok for harassing but you most likely find your doing more ducking than harassing.

oh yeah shadow cat ... almost forgot (something its really good at)
Shadow cat could be argued the only mech that has a truly fitting name in MWO well besides the awesome. but while the shadow cat does not fit all your requirements it does excel at the harasser role.

this mech is always on the outskirts wearing away at the enemy, compromising positions providing intel and finishing off busted mechs taking a rear position for firing support. if your particularly keen on the field you will also see these buggers working the field so dont discount the shadow cat. in the right hand it is a mech that subversively alters the flow of battle.

Edited by nitra, 24 April 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Nope. Mediums can be harassers too if they go as fast as lights like the Viper does.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Harasser

[Jay Leon Hart]

Tarogato, on 24 April 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Harasser

I admit, I totally missed that reference.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 24 April 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

*AHEM*


Harasser is a light, not a medium.




(shoot me.)

i see what you did there.....

[Khobai]

Quote

And you're still a larger target, without the utility of ECM that the ACH brings.

again i just take radar derp. the vipers more than fast enough to run away and radar derp hides you instantly.

and yes I agree the viper is more fragile than other 40 tonners with structure quirks. but its still less fragile than an arctic cheetah in most cases.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

While that cicada build is better at specific things, the viper is still better overall IMO. In a 1v1 fight the viper certainly has an edge because of its lower arm actuators.

Having arm actuators doesn't give you an advantage, plus if you are mounting most of your firepower in the arms on a Viper, you are doing it wrong, end of story. You also clearly don't understand the damage the Cicada can put out which far outweighs the small advantages the Viper has. Honestly, the 1v1 would be close because 1v1s play differently, but it would definitely be close due to how much firepower both can put out. The Cicada will probably win though simply because the JJs don't really afford you anything in a 1v1 and the extra structure and sustained DPS of the Cicada should edge out the Viper.

There is a reason comp teams choose the CDA-2B over the VPR, because the VPR isn't worth the tonnage over the Cheetah and what the CDA-2B does is unrivaled.

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

The cicada 2B might be better at backstabbing assault mechs but when it comes to fighting other lights or fast mediums its not as good as a Viper.

You are wrong here too, the shorter duration (0.6 vs 0.75) and the fact the mech has a higher sustained DPS means the CDA-2B is actually insanely good at destroying enemy Cheetahs.

Khobai, on 24 April 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

but as a long range harasser the SHC will never approach a hellbringer. So I dont really see your point.

This is you, not understanding the difference between a main body sniper and a harasser (one has the ability to play as a satellite unit much safer than the other).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 April 2017 - 04:22 PM.

[BurningDesire]

if you want to try something different a good harasser is the cicada 3c with a ER PPC 4 machine guns and a XL340.
it has fast in and out tactics, it never gets hot with the ER PPC and as the round comes to a close the machine guns are great since the buff. another option is use a AC2 instead of machine guns but you are slower and you will get hot.

Or just get the viper, the C variant is the best one and if you fall for it buy the medusa but the C variant is still the best

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BurningDesire, on 24 April 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Or just get the viper, the C variant is the best one and if you fall for it buy the medusa but the C variant is still the best

Ehhh, I don't know if it is the best. It is great for the 5 SPL/4 MG build but I think the A build is actually better for 5 ERML or 4 MPL builds thanks to the 5% heat gen pod set quirk, both builds are sort of limited in usefulness but they are still decent options. For 6 SPL builds as well, you lose out on agility quirks by using the C's CT pod and I don't know that you gain that much from an extra torso laser.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 April 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[BurningDesire]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 April 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Ehhh, I don't know if it is the best. It is great for the 5 SPL/4 MG build but I think the A build is actually better for 5 ERML or 4 MPL builds thanks to the 5% heat gen pod set quirk, both builds are sort of limited in usefulness but they are still decent options. For 6 SPL builds as well, you lose out on agility quirks by using the C's CT pod and I don't know that you gain that much from an extra torso laser.

has the best variety as far as vipers go. the C's CT pod is is handy for that 1/2 ton you get left over sometimes for a flamer

[Deathlike]

Outside of the Cicada, I do enjoy the Fridge. It's the only form of reasonably sustainable midrange poke (5CERMED) that's gonna get ECM soon™.

Who doesn't like an Ice Cold Fridge?

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 24 April 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Outside of the Cicada, I do enjoy the Fridge. It's the only form of reasonably sustainable midrange poke (5CERMED) that's gonna get ECM soon™.

Who doesn't like an Ice Cold Fridge?

depends on what brand of beer it's filled with.