187 replies to this topic

[vandalhooch]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

@Naduk Don't forget that you can use those GSP to unlock more than the minimum 91 nodes you can buy with HSP, there's definite benefit to having nodes unlocked as you can respec much easier - just as you could swap modules (well with a small xp tax anyways)

The GSP are not useless.

Although you do have an excessive amount of modules - but you have had the benefit of them

We'll you've had your benefit of your "extra" mechs. PGI should confiscate every single one of them that doesn't have a full module set and give you the equivalent GSP for them. Sound like a plan you can get behind?

[slide]

What the OP is really getting is a free upgrades on every car he ever plans to purchase in the future.

Lets take me as an example.
Live account
Mechs 108 (80% Mastered)
Mechbays 152
Cbills 380m
GXP 420 k

Average cost of a mech including upgrades is around 15m Cbills. Modules to suit minimum another 15m. GXP to master a mech 70k

So right now I could go out and buy 12 mechs (12@30each =360m with modules), I can Master 6 of them.

Then I am broke.

After PTS refund
500m Cbills
800k GXP
25k GSP

So I can go out and buy 33 mechs (500/15each because no modules required), I spend (33*91=) 3003 GSP to have them all mastered with their module equivalents. I can go out and Master and module (equivalent mech I currently own) at no effort at all and still have enough GSP to level my next 200+ mechs at no effort either.

How is that a bad deal?

Frankly if you have 1 billion Cbills invested in Modules then you really don't have a problem getting more.

Edited by slide, 26 April 2017 - 06:58 PM.

[vandalhooch]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

Frankly if you have 1 billion Cbills invested in Modules then you really don't have a problem getting more.

It took me 15 thousand matches to get 1 billion in modules. You going to grind out those matches to compensate me for my loss?

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Bud Crue, on 26 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

And taking out a spark plug or two and maybe a piston and telling you to keep driving it for awhile until they understand just how it fits into the new baseline of performance that they think all cars should have.

that is the best analogy I have seen yet for how terrible all the nerfs from the Skill Maze are being implemented

[slide]

vandalhooch, on 26 April 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

It took me 15 thousand matches to get 1 billion in modules. You going to grind out those matches to compensate me for my loss?

And if I gave you a billion Cbills what would you do with it?

Buy hundred mechs and then spend another 15000 matches grinding out the XP to level them up I suppose.

You people keep looking at the Cbill value and not considering the fact that a mech is a combination of Cbills, XP and as it stands now the modules you put on it. The new system pretty much eliminates 2 parts of that equation for the life of the game for anyone with 15000 games up their sleeve.

[vandalhooch]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

And if I gave you a billion Cbills what would you do with it?

Buy hundred mechs and then spend another 15000 matches grinding out the XP to level them up I suppose.

I don't know about hundreds, but yes I would buy more mechs and would work to level them.

Quote

You people keep looking at the Cbill value and not considering the fact that a mech is a combination of Cbills, XP and as it stands now the modules you put on it. The new system pretty much eliminates 2 parts of that equation for the life of the game for anyone with 15000 games up their sleeve.

Not sure what your point here is.

[slide]

vandalhooch, on 26 April 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

I don't know about hundreds, but yes I would buy more mechs and would work to level them.

So you are prepared to grind out hundreds (maybe thousands) of matches to level mechs, but not play the mechs you have, to grind out the Cbills needed to buy the next one. Considering you get Cbills and XP every match you play I really don't see the difference. (Note it has been my experience that by the time I mastered a mech in the current system I generally had enough Cbills to buy the next mech)

vandalhooch, on 26 April 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Not sure what your point here is.

My point is that a fully optimized mech (including modules) is generally considered the bare minimum for FP and is an absolute requirement for competition play. You can't have that with out grinding out the XP on it.


Grind is Grind. Be it Cbills or XP.

But their is a fundamental difference between Cbills and XP, Cbills are transportable, XP is not with out spending real money to convert to GXP.

With this system PGI are giving away so much transportable free XP that it is ridiculous (probably to the point that it is an over sight). For your billion Cbills worth of GSP you will basically never have to worry about XP for a mech ever again (or a least a long time) Every mech you buy, instant leveled however you want. No looking for modules, no having to buy a mech only to spend another 25 million in modules to get it up to spec. For people like you and me the whole XP->GXP conversion and XP in general becomes a redundant feature of the game.

Consider the next mechpack you buy. 6-8 mechs worth perhaps. 20 minutes after they arrive in your account you could have the whole lot, leveled up with what ever you choose and ready to play, not 2 or 3 weeks later like everyone else. And more importantly it doesn't cost you another 20million Cbills each (thats 120-160m you just saved) to put modules on the mechs you bought with cash.

I have million and millions of unused XP on mechs that I refuse to spend MC on to convert to GXP. PGI are effectively giving me all of that and more, millions of GXP, AT NO COST.

People keep looking at Cbills. But it is only part of the picture.

Edited by slide, 26 April 2017 - 08:45 PM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Consider the next mechpack you buy. 6-8 mechs worth perhaps. 20 minutes after they arrive in your account you could have the whole lot, leveled up with what ever you choose and ready to play, not 2 or 3 weeks later like everyone else. And more importantly it doesn't cost you another 20million Cbills each (thats 120-160m you just saved) to put modules on the mechs you bought with cash.

I'm not buying a next mech pack for this very reason......

I need cbills to kit out my new toys... Double heat sink tax, endo/ferro, weapons, engine.....

I would much rather have the cbills to do that and grind XP on a fully kitted mech than have the XP and grind cbills in a stock mech.

Half the fun for me in having new mechs is leveling them up, seeing how they play with no skills and looking forward to how much better they feel and handle after double basics. And using the cbills I earned grinding them to fully module them out(guess that was a huge mistake).

This would also be a point in favor of the new skill tree. I would be able to add at least one skill after almost every match while I try out different builds and loadouts to see what works and what doesn't. What you describe to me feels like you're putting the cart before the horse.

[vandalhooch]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

So you are prepared to grind out hundreds (maybe thousands) of matches to level mechs, but not play the mechs you have, to grind out the Cbills needed to buy the next one. Considering you get Cbills and XP every match you play I really don't see the difference. (Note it has been my experience that by the time I mastered a mech in the current system I generally had enough Cbills to buy the next mech)

No. I'm prepared to grind out the C-bills again. I'm okay with the new system coming in. I'll end up losing hundreds of millions of C-bills through selling off many of my modules. I just want the tantrum throwers from the first iteration to take note. They flooded the forums with their sad tales of having "hundreds' of mechs" and having to grind out additional C-bills to re-master them because they weren't getting much of a refund from modules. They wailed to the heavens about how it was so unfair that people that bought modules for each of their mechs wouldn't have to grind C-bills to remaster them. (Conveniently forgetting that said module users had in fact already done that grind in order to buy the modules in the first place!)

I'm okay with the sacrifice coming out of my coffers but a little recognition would be nice.

Quote

My point is that a fully optimized mech (including modules) is generally considered the bare minimum for FP and is an absolute requirement for competition play. You can't have that with out grinding out the XP on it.


Grind is Grind. Be it Cbills or XP.

But their is a fundamental difference between Cbills and XP, Cbills are transportable, XP is not with out spending real money to convert to GXP.

The C-bill grind to get all of my modules has netted me a current GXP count of 1.3 million. I'm not worrying about converting mech XP.

Quote

With this system PGI are giving away so much transportable free XP that it is ridiculous (probably to the point that it is an over sight). For your billion Cbills worth of GSP you will basically never have to worry about XP for a mech ever again (or a least a long time) Every mech you buy, instant leveled however you want.

1 - If I went in for insta-leveling, I wouldn't have 1.3 million GXP.

2 - The C-bills to purchase enough mechs to use up my incoming GSP will take a lot of grinding that will earn me even more GXP. That GSP has no future value to me.

3 - My plan is tell sell about 300 M worth of modules before the patch and use the remainder as GSP to just buyout all 242 nodes of my current mechs.

4 - Then, buy new mechs/tech and earn more mech XP.

Quote

No looking for modules, no having to buy a mech only to spend another 25 million in modules to get it up to spec. For people like you and me the whole XP->GXP conversion and XP in general becomes a redundant feature of the game.

Consider the next mechpack you buy. 6-8 mechs worth perhaps. 20 minutes after they arrive in your account you could have the whole lot, leveled up with what ever you choose and ready to play, not 2 or 3 weeks later like everyone else. And more importantly it doesn't cost you another 20million Cbills each (thats 120-160m you just saved) to put modules on the mechs you bought with cash.

Different players find motivation in different things. Having a job, to level all my new mechs, is a motivating factor for me. I know it may not be for some and that's fine but I don't plan on insta-leveling any new mech purchases outside of emergency comp league needs.

Quote

I have million and millions of unused XP on mechs that I refuse to spend MC on to convert to GXP. PGI are effectively giving me all of that and more, millions of GXP, AT NO COST.

Me too. But, I already have a glut of GXP right now. More GXP does not interest me beyond seeing how high I can get it!

Quote

People keep looking at Cbills. But it is only part of the picture.

I think a big motivator with the C-bill focus is the imminent timeline jump and new, expensive, tech.

[slide]

Jaybles, on 26 April 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

I'm not buying a next mech pack for this very reason......

I need cbills to kit out my new toys... Double heat sink tax, endo/ferro, weapons, engine.....

I would much rather have the cbills to do that and grind XP on a fully kitted mech than have the XP and grind cbills in a stock mech.

Half the fun for me in having new mechs is leveling them up, seeing how they play with no skills and looking forward to how much better they feel and handle after double basics. And using the cbills I earned grinding them to fully module them out(guess that was a huge mistake).

This would also be a point in favor of the new skill tree. I would be able to add at least one skill after almost every match while I try out different builds and loadouts to see what works and what doesn't. What you describe to me feels like you're putting the cart before the horse.

Yep been there and done that for every mech I own. And there is some value to it as well. But doing that in the new system is going to cost you Cbills every step of the way. To the tune of 4+ million for a full 91 nodes +800 xp each. That's not including back tracking and experimentation. There is no reason you can't drip feed your nodes with GSP either. There might even be some wisdom to it.

I would argue that the 4 million you don't have to spend unlocking nodes, will in most cases cover the cost of upgrades to DHS and bigger engines (maybe not the really big XLs) but certainly all the basic stuff such as DHS, Endo, etc. This is why GSP is valuable beyond just XP and instant leveling. You will not be spending as much leveling mechs, thus making it easier to save to buy the next mech. 4 million must just about cover the cost of all light IS mechs and even a few Mediums.

Are any of us with 1000's of games and hundreds of mechs really this poor that we can't afford basic upgrades when we buy a mech. I personally don't even think about it anymore. Seriously look in your inventory if you are that strapped for Cbills. Do you really need the 300 Medium lasers you will find in there, or the 25 Std 300 engines that you replaced with XL's any way. I had a clear out a year ago and raised over 100m in about half an hour. Do that, buy a mech of each class, deck them out and you will still have change. You can use the 16m you saved using GSP to level them to buy a fifth and carry on from there. All the while making more Cbills and XP every game you play, allowing you to experiment, essentially for free.

People are worried about losing a few hundred million (billion maybe) Cbills, yet are willing to give up millions in XP and free upgrades (Skill points) whilst still having to grind hundreds or thousands of games leveling the mechs they were going to buy with refunded Cbills.

I don't get it. You say I am putting the cart before the horse, I say you are unhooking the horse and pushing the cart yourself.

If we are going to use a horse and cart analogy it works like this. Your cart makes XP and Cbills by the amount it can carry. The bigger your horse the more you can carry. Now you can feed your horse GXP and Cbills (800xp and 45kCbills) every trip (match) or two to make it bigger, at the cost of some of the load. Or you can feed your horse for free (GSP) and make a 100% profit. Thus enabling you to buy another Horse and Cart sooner.

[Lily from animove]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

yeah because your motor wears out, and that mech/moule/wepaon doesn't it will still perform like the entire new motor. You are just one of those able to do the bad comparison others do as well In fact these items never get a "used" stamp due to the lakc of needed rapair or decay.

If our technology would never advance and no itme ever wore out, prices wouldn't alter. (exlcuding any currency value alterations)




but ehy why not delete ALL mechs of ALL accounts and then just repay GXp, wouldn't it be fun having a total reset huh?

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 April 2017 - 12:38 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 10:07 PM, said:

You can try to spin it any way you want, but it comes down to this:

PGI is going to take 1.3 billion cbills worth of stuff from my inventory that is currently equipped on my mechs and give me something that I have no use for in return, unless I... Buy another mech pack.... And in the process they have gone back on a promise that the company president made to the player base.

I am not ok with this.

I've spent a nice chunk of change on this game. I have 257 mechs. That comes out to me acquiring 4 mechs a month since I started playing. Most are mastered and the ones that aren't I really have no interest in playing, unless the quirk gods be kind. I'm going to receive 29,780 GSP. that is enough to put 91 skills on 327 mechs. Even if I grind enough to buy 4 mechs a month. It would take me... carry the one... 6 and half years to use all that GSP....

As I said in another thread, I'm sitting on a whopping 30 million cbills. I was saving that for bushwackers. But now, I probably won't buy another mech for a long long time. I've got to grind all those cbills again to go buy new tech in PGI's next upcoming cbill sink.

and by the way.... the whole point was... I don't have a horse.. because... no cbills to buy one! GSP is completely useless unless I have mechs to spend it on.... I have no mechs to spend it on because all my cbills went to modules which are now becoming GSP....

Edited by Jaybles, 27 April 2017 - 12:38 AM.

[slide]

You have 257 horses and you can feed em free forever.

[Lily from animove]

slide, on 27 April 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

You have 257 horses and you can feed em free forever.

if humans and horses only would be immortal then the deal would be good..

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 April 2017 - 01:33 AM.

[meteorol]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

This is a terrible analogy tbh.

A cars engine suffers from attrition, which is the reason for a large amount of it's declining worth. The specific digital good, the modules you are referring to, don't.

There is no difference between a "used" PPC range module and a new one, because it doesn't get worse over time. For the sake of the point you are trying to make, "used" modules don't even exist. There is no market that does, or could, differentiate between used modules and new ones. For MWO modules, used goods = new goods. If you have 6 seismic sensors in your inventory, you couldn't even tell which one you have for 2 years and which one you got 2 sec ago.

[Dogstar]

meteorol, on 27 April 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

This is a terrible analogy tbh.

A cars engine suffers from attrition, which is the reason for a large amount of it's declining worth. The specific digital good, the modules you are referring to, don't.

There is no difference between a "used" PPC range module and a new one, because it doesn't get worse over time. For the sake of the point you are trying to make, "used" modules don't even exist. There is no market that does, or could, differentiate between used modules and new ones. For MWO modules, used goods = new goods. If you have 6 seismic sensors in your inventory, you couldn't even tell which one you have for 2 years and which one you got 2 sec ago.

Try selling that PPC module for full price then.

What's that I hear? You can't sell it for full price?

MWO used 'digital' goods are worth 50% of original price and always have been

If you bought a module before Dec you have no right to get back the full price.

[meteorol]

Dogstar, on 27 April 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

Try selling that PPC module for full price then.

What's that I hear? You can't sell it for full price?

MWO used 'digital' goods are worth 50% of original price and always have been

If you bought a module before Dec you have no right to get back the full price.

The fact that you can only sell back modules for 50% of the price is a condition set by PGI, which is in place before you buy the module. PGI could also exclude the possibility to sell modules as a whole, or take them back at 100%. It's a predefined sell-back-cut that doesn't depend on whether the module is used or not. If you buy it, and sell it back 1 sec later without even using it once, you only get 50%.

The price cut is independent of the fact whether the module is used or not. More importantly, it is independent of the fact how long you used that module, or how the market for that good developed during the time you used the good.

What you said doesn't make your analogy better. Sorry. I'm not even arguing whether people should get refunded at all, 50%, or 100%. I'm just saying your analogy is terrible.

Edited by meteorol, 27 April 2017 - 02:07 AM.

[oldradagast]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

Are you for real? "Used goods?!" - I didn't realize that the performance of modules in MWO deteriorates with time, as it does with cars. Did you have to change the brakes on your mech lately? Did that engine wear out? How about a new paint job?

So, aside from your analogy being horrible, you're also missing another big factor: this is a game and full refunds in space-bucks cost PGI NOTHING.

There is no economy in this game, and PGI isn't going to lose money if people get space rich from module refunds. It's not like they have to actually print out the space-bucks or take them out of their profits. In reality, players that are space-rich are MORE likely to spend real money on products because they have the in-game money to outfit and customize those mechs.

Edited by oldradagast, 27 April 2017 - 03:12 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

slide, on 27 April 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

You have 257 horses and you can feed em free forever.

They are already fed, watered and sheltered for life.... all GSP is doing is burying them in the barn under mounds and mounds of hay that they can't eat and I can neither spend, sell, nor burn....

This is your argument? oh, well you have so much all ready, you shouldn't mind if PGI takes your five years of grinding and turns it into pixie dust. What are you going to tell me next? Just sell those mechs and buy new ones along with a new mech pack?

None of these options really motivate me to keep playing this game.

[Lily from animove]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

And if I gave you a billion Cbills what would you do with it?

Buy hundred mechs and then spend another 15000 matches grinding out the XP to level them up I suppose.

You people keep looking at the Cbill value and not considering the fact that a mech is a combination of Cbills, XP and as it stands now the modules you put on it. The new system pretty much eliminates 2 parts of that equation for the life of the game for anyone with 15000 games up their sleeve.

Not sure how well you perform and your payout is, but those 91 nodes you need 72,800 Xp, a proper player can get his average 2500xp per match, with 15.000 further matches he can grind the skill for 515 mechs. doubt PGI will even be able to release that many more emchs until the end of the game or smeone actually buying that many mroe mechs. And this isn't even calculating the first days 2x XP reward into or premium bonus to the XP or th hero XP bonus. also ontop of this

refiunding 1billion into GXP is just providing a pointless Excess Xp no one ever needs aside from a few players that have a very lousy Xp income and spent moneys on mechs they cannot master due to lakc of match performance gained XP..

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 April 2017 - 08:14 AM.