50 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Here's what an actual refund would look like.

All the cbills you spent on all modules would be refunded 100%.

All the GXP you spent both on mechs and skills would be refunded as GXP.

All the mech specific XP you spent on a mech to skill it up would get refunded as XP specific to that mech, just as it is today.

In the new system the XP you spent to master a mech in the 'old' (current) system would get you about 72 SP. So you'd need to spend 3,240,000 cbills (from your current balance plus what refunds you got) to buy those back in the new system, because that's the cost in the new system. You would then need to spend any XP you have in that specific mech plus another 855,000 cbills to take it up to 91 SP.

If you want to convert your existing stockpile of XP tied to a specific mech to GXP you can use on any mech you'd have to spend MC, just as you do today, to turn it to GXP to spend on another mech.

That's a completely fair refund as it gets you back exactly what you spent to date.

The biggest mistake, by far, PGI has made is being too generous from day 1 with the refund they're giving. Now we've got people who want the XP they spent before matched with the cbill value of it in the new system, with the value of modules in SP give to them for free, plus all the cbills they've spent refunded in full. I'm hugely critical of PGI but that's so ******* entitled I don't even know where to begin.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I think the issue is the mech is complete at 56k in xp (or whatever it is), and whatever cost and when they changed the system for mastery they upped the price.

As it stands right now, I don't spend any c-bills to level a mech's skills. The c-bill cost is really there to replicate the module system that's being full integrated into the mechs.

People balked at the costs in xp going up primarily, and cash as a secondary item.

I could see PGI reverting the xp at the exact rate of expenditure IF the two versions used the same xp # to cap (which they totally could...these # selections are fairly arbitrary), then refund people the modules in pure cash/gxp and you've got to decide how/where to invest that money across your stable. If you didn't outfit 100% of your mechs with modules, clearly you're going to shell out some added cash to get them ALL re-mastered. It's honestly, absolutely fair.

But the current version of PTS actually goes much further in a favor, which people are just violently ignoring the math on, which I think is unfortunate. I don't think PGI is going to give much more in the way of c-bills for all of the reasons previously discussed.

What they COULD do that I'd really appreciate is a slider bar in my refund ledge that lets me sell some GSP (cap it to be limited to the # of modules I purchased or whatever, or to some date like the December one being bandied about) and let me sell the excess that way, as opposed to the night before patch day forcing me to log on, strip mechs, do math and then sell a bunch of mechs lol.

[Monkey Lover]

I would be better off even with this system. I would get 800m refunded and 560k gxp (millions on the mechs) haha I could fully node every mech i have 2 almost 3 times

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 April 2017 - 08:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Lukoi Banacek, on 26 April 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

I think the issue is the mech is complete at 56k in xp (or whatever it is), and whatever cost and when they changed the system for mastery they upped the price.

As it stands right now, I don't spend any c-bills to level a mech's skills. The c-bill cost is really there to replicate the module system that's being full integrated into the mechs.

People balked at the costs in xp going up primarily, and cash as a secondary item.

I could see PGI reverting the xp at the exact rate of expenditure IF the two versions used the same xp # to cap (which they totally could...these # selections are fairly arbitrary), then refund people the modules in pure cash/gxp and you've got to decide how/where to invest that money across your stable. If you didn't outfit 100% of your mechs with modules, clearly you're going to shell out some added cash to get them ALL re-mastered. It's honestly, absolutely fair.

But the current version of PTS actually goes much further in a favor, which people are just violently ignoring the math on, which I think is unfortunate. I don't think PGI is going to give much more in the way of c-bills for all of the reasons previously discussed.

What they COULD do that I'd really appreciate is a slider bar in my refund ledge that lets me sell some GSP (cap it to be limited to the # of modules I purchased or whatever, or to some date like the December one being bandied about) and let me sell the excess that way, as opposed to the night before patch day forcing me to log on, strip mechs, do math and then sell a bunch of mechs lol.

Except you didn't spend cbills before. Why are you getting them now? Prices changed, the value of things has changed. Again, it costs the same amount to buy a TBR now as it did when it was OP AF.

Monkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

I would be better off even with this system. I would get 800m refunded and 560k gxp (millions on the mechs) haha I could fully node every mech i have 2 almost 3 times

You'd get the XP you've spent on mechs refunded back to those mechs, not GXP. So you'd rebuy it on mechs at 56K to get 72SP, plus 3,240,000 cbills per mech, then an extra 15k XP and 855,000 cbills to get the mech to 91. The value of mastery plus modules. So about 4,100,000 and 71k mech specific XP (or gxp if you've got it) per mech. So your 800 million cbills would get you about 195 mechs mastered to 91; however you'd need to grind up all their XP or convert mech XP to GXP at a cost of 1 MC per 25 XP converted, so 2,840 MC per mech mastered. Or you grind the XP.

Not sure in the long run that's better than enough SP to never have to worry about it for all the mechs you have and will buy for a while yet.

However I'm absolutely game with that. It would be a fair refund.

[Bishop Steiner]

Got to say, I prefer to actually be agreeing with you again Mischief, than being locking horns over bittervet-itis...though this community is more likely to drive me to that status than PGI, tbh (though there have been times......, I won't lie)

Good post, nothing really to add (ATM) other than support.

[Vxheous]

I'd take this system over what they're giving us right now, but I would bet the "cheapskate" portion would throw a fit again

[vandalhooch]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 April 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'd take this system over what they're giving us right now, but I would bet the "cheapskate" portion would throw a fit again

Yep. Guaranteed.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Here's what an actual refund would look like.

All the cbills you spent on all modules would be refunded 100%.

All the GXP you spent both on mechs and skills would be refunded as GXP.

All the mech specific XP you spent on a mech to skill it up would get refunded as XP specific to that mech, just as it is today.

In the new system the XP you spent to master a mech in the 'old' (current) system would get you about 72 SP. So you'd need to spend 3,240,000 cbills (from your current balance plus what refunds you got) to buy those back in the new system, because that's the cost in the new system. You would then need to spend any XP you have in that specific mech plus another 855,000 cbills to take it up to 91 SP.

If you want to convert your existing stockpile of XP tied to a specific mech to GXP you can use on any mech you'd have to spend MC, just as you do today, to turn it to GXP to spend on another mech.

That's a completely fair refund as it gets you back exactly what you spent to date.

The biggest mistake, by far, PGI has made is being too generous from day 1 with the refund they're giving. Now we've got people who want the XP they spent before matched with the cbill value of it in the new system, with the value of modules in SP give to them for free, plus all the cbills they've spent refunded in full. I'm hugely critical of PGI but that's so ******* entitled I don't even know where to begin.

So, if I read this right, you are advocating for how the Skill tree was implemented in the previous PTS?

And if so I'm am and always was fine with that. I understood that PGI wasn't going to remove the modules without putting a cbill sink in to replace it.

The difference is that in that system I could choose to re invest my module refund into the skill tree or mechs or what ever I want.

In the current iteration. PGI has taken that choice away.

I'd even be fine if you had to choose, you get your full module refund and zero HSP/GSP, meaning no points for mastered mechs, or you get the GSP option and get full HSP points and GSP and no cbill refund.

I realize of course this isn't realistic, but at the end of the day PGI gonna do what PGI gonna do and we'll all either deal with it or walk away, but It is a sad state of affairs that PGI would put their customers through this to begin with, first with the 'cheapskates' and now with the 'hoarders.'

[orcrist86]

PGI has explicitly stated that they are trying to make mechs that are mastered be roughly equivalent per XP and that the new system give you new bonuses for continuing to play mechs. Its not supposed to be a 1:1 transfer, it supposed to give you new tactical options and reward your already long term play with certain mechs by giving the system new headroom.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 April 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'd take this system over what they're giving us right now, but I would bet the "cheapskate" portion would throw a fit again

To clarify though the current model PGI is offering is giving you about 5x what the model I outlined here is worth. That's the crux of the issue - they're over-refunding so completely that it's making SP worthless. A GSP is worth 4,553 cbills and 712 GXP. Not even XP, GXP. That's equating a mastered mech to only being worth 72 SP, not 91 (the equiv of a mastered mech with no modules).

The current refund model is giving you 64,747 XP and 4,095,000 cbills in value for just the 51,250 XP and 0 cbills you spent mastering a mech. Then it's giving you 712 GXP (not XP) free for every 4,553 cbills worth of modules you spent.

The new skill tree is giving you duplicate value for every single individual weapon type cooldown and range module you've got as all that's compressed in the new skill tree, so you only need 1 'cooldown' module 'worth' in the new system to get the value on all weapon types you load and 1 'range' module worth for all the weapons you'll put on the mech.

Then it's giving you back all your XP as GXP without charging 1 MC per 25 XP.

The problem with the new refund model is it's way, way, way too generous. It makes SP feel worthless.

[MischiefSC]

orcrist86, on 26 April 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

PGI has explicitly stated that they are trying to make mechs that are mastered be roughly equivalent per XP and that the new system give you new bonuses for continuing to play mechs. Its not supposed to be a 1:1 transfer, it supposed to give you new tactical options and reward your already long term play with certain mechs by giving the system new headroom.

So you're saying you want free modules of every type on every mech for the value of the XP alone you spent just to get them mastered with no modules.

Why?

Because PGI, stupidly, was too generous with their refunds out of the gate.

Your XP got you skills in the old system. The new system is XP plus cbills. However the old system had modules you could buy and boost mechs before you even got any XP on them, but you paid essentially just cbills. Now it's combined them so out of the gate you need cbills and XP.

The old system sold power creep in the form of modules. That was always bad. Now the power creep is being rolled back, like it was with unbalanced tech and mechs and the times we've had over-quirked mechs.

Getting a mech to the same level as a fully quirked mech with modules only costs 4 million cbills instead of 21 million in the current system for the new (toned down) equivalent.

That's fair and balanced. People demanding everything for free isn't.

[Lukoi Banacek]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

Except you didn't spend cbills before. Why are you getting them now?

But I did. On modules. I spent GXP to unlock them, and c-bills to purchase them. That's reflected in my GSP which represents both the XP+CB costs of unlocking a node in this new system. Since I'm also getting HSP, which really just represents XP I've put on the mech, most of the time well past the point of mastery, that means I'll have as you've noted, a ton of extra GSP as will ALOT of players.

Setting aside a reasonable amount of "modules" to allow PGI to transform them into GSP for me (to level future mechs with for free) and then selling what I consider the excess for c-bills (albeit at 50%), means I'm definitely being rewarded twice for mastering/moduling the same mech.

This reimbursement plan is chock full of cash, mastery experience etc but I think some folks are over-fixating on the c-bill component. THIS version of the reimbursement plan is actually more generous than the first one when you consider all facets of the grind in their simplest terms -- man-hours invested.

So, I'm all about it. I know I'm not getting "full value" on most of my modules when it comes to c-bills (even though PGI even catered to that request by going back to December to give you 100% reimbursement on modules purchased after that point), you're still making out like a bandit. You just have to go through the extra step of mathing it out, selling the modules etc. Not intuitive but easily to our benefit.

I've already figured this out. I'll end up making enough GSP to do what ever I want with future mechs pretty easily (since all of the mechs I play are "buffered" with tons of HSP as well) and still transform most of the modules into cash before patch day. I'll probably take back 700-800m of the 1.45b in modules I've purchased lifetime, master every mech and have every bit of the GSP left over. Folks really need to dive into this to see how good they really have it under the new plan.

[MischiefSC]

Lukoi Banacek, on 26 April 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

But I did. On modules. I spent GXP to unlock them, and c-bills to purchase them. That's reflected in my GSP which represents both the XP+CB costs of unlocking a node in this new system. Since I'm also getting HSP, which really just represents XP I've put on the mech, most of the time well past the point of mastery, that means I'll have as you've noted, a ton of extra GSP as will ALOT of players.

Setting aside a reasonable amount of "modules" to allow PGI to transform them into GSP for me (to level future mechs with for free) and then selling what I consider the excess for c-bills (albeit at 50%), means I'm definitely being rewarded twice for mastering/moduling the same mech.

This reimbursement plan is chock full of cash, mastery experience etc but I think some folks are over-fixating on the c-bill component. THIS version of the reimbursement plan is actually more generous than the first one when you consider all facets of the grind in their simplest terms -- man-hours invested.

So, I'm all about it. I know I'm not getting "full value" on most of my modules when it comes to c-bills (even though PGI even catered to that request by going back to December to give you 100% reimbursement on modules purchased after that point), you're still making out like a bandit. You just have to go through the extra step of mathing it out, selling the modules etc. Not intuitive but easily to our benefit.

I've already figured this out. I'll end up making enough GSP to do what ever I want with future mechs pretty easily (since all of the mechs I play are "buffered" with tons of HSP as well) and still transform most of the modules into cash before patch day. I'll probably take back 700-800m of the 1.45b in modules I've purchased lifetime, master every mech and have every bit of the GSP left over. Folks really need to dive into this to see how good they really have it under the new plan.

Yep. It's the compression of cooldown and range modules into universal instead of per weapon that really kills it. You just need 1 Range and 1 Cooldown module per mech in 'value'. In fact it's better than that; because the exchange rate they've created duplicates the XP and Cbill value of your spend XP and module Cbills you're essentially getting like 67 SP for a single weapon cooldown module. So two weapon modules refund enough to cover 134 SP. 200 SP for a single Radar Derp module.

So you essentially get 91 SP per mastered mech plus 22.22 SP per 1 million cbills worth of modules. So 4 million worth of modules gets you 88.88 SP, plus the SP you're getting free from spent XP. So 3 or 4 million worth of modules for each mech you want SP to master should give you enough to cover every mech you've got and a solid stockpile for future mechs.

Sell the rest for cash before the hammer drops and you'll make out like a bandit.

[WarHippy]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

To clarify though the current model PGI is offering is giving you about 5x what the model I outlined here is worth. That's the crux of the issue - they're over-refunding so completely that it's making SP worthless. A GSP is worth 4,553 cbills and 712 GXP. Not even XP, GXP. That's equating a mastered mech to only being worth 72 SP, not 91 (the equiv of a mastered mech with no modules).

The current refund model is giving you 64,747 XP and 4,095,000 cbills in value for just the 51,250 XP and 0 cbills you spent mastering a mech. Then it's giving you 712 GXP (not XP) free for every 4,553 cbills worth of modules you spent.

The new skill tree is giving you duplicate value for every single individual weapon type cooldown and range module you've got as all that's compressed in the new skill tree, so you only need 1 'cooldown' module 'worth' in the new system to get the value on all weapon types you load and 1 'range' module worth for all the weapons you'll put on the mech.

Then it's giving you back all your XP as GXP without charging 1 MC per 25 XP.

The problem with the new refund model is it's way, way, way too generous. It makes SP feel worthless.

I would rather the SP essentially be worthless(which it wouldn't be) than going with anything resembling the previous system which is what you are basically advocating for in the OP. If we can only have one or the other I would much rather have the one that is over generous in our favor than one that is overly punishing of people that have a lot of mechs.

[orcrist86]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

So you're saying you want free modules of every type on every mech for the value of the XP alone you spent just to get them mastered with no modules.

Why?

Because PGI, stupidly, was too generous with their refunds out of the gate.

Your XP got you skills in the old system. The new system is XP plus cbills. However the old system had modules you could buy and boost mechs before you even got any XP on them, but you paid essentially just cbills. Now it's combined them so out of the gate you need cbills and XP.

The old system sold power creep in the form of modules. That was always bad. Now the power creep is being rolled back, like it was with unbalanced tech and mechs and the times we've had over-quirked mechs.

Getting a mech to the same level as a fully quirked mech with modules only costs 4 million cbills instead of 21 million in the current system for the new (toned down) equivalent.

That's fair and balanced. People demanding everything for free isn't.

That's not even remotely what I said dude. not at all. It is in fact, the complete opposite.

[Monkey Lover]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

Except you didn't spend cbills before. Why are you getting them now? Prices changed, the value of things has changed. Again, it costs the same amount to buy a TBR now as it did when it was OP AF.



You'd get the XP you've spent on mechs refunded back to those mechs, not GXP. So you'd rebuy it on mechs at 56K to get 72SP, plus 3,240,000 cbills per mech, then an extra 15k XP and 855,000 cbills to get the mech to 91. The value of mastery plus modules. So about 4,100,000 and 71k mech specific XP (or gxp if you've got it) per mech. So your 800 million cbills would get you about 195 mechs mastered to 91; however you'd need to grind up all their XP or convert mech XP to GXP at a cost of 1 MC per 25 XP converted, so 2,840 MC per mech mastered. Or you grind the XP.

Not sure in the long run that's better than enough SP to never have to worry about it for all the mechs you have and will buy for a while yet.

However I'm absolutely game with that. It would be a fair refund.

well the gxp refund should be a gxp refund its from the unlock module screen. I basically had everything unlock but a few clan weapons.

Again i think i would be better off because at this point i think i would only master maybe 15 mechs. I dont play almost any of my mechs anymore. Might do a few of them for lols with the new tech but most are junk.

But im sure most people wouldnt be happy with this

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 April 2017 - 10:22 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Lukoi and Mischief,

I think you guys are vastly overrating the value of XP in your views on the value of the current exchange.

For a new player in the current system, GXP is strongly limiting resource as it takes a long time to accumulate enough to begin to unlock modules.

However, in terms of man-hours playing the game, useful quantities of C-bills is far, far more limiting to typical players than XP (in any form). The fact that the proposed conversion rewards players with large quantities of various XP's doesn't matter because the C-bill bottleneck remains the limiting nutrient in the ecosystem. By the time players are working with larger quantities of C-bills, like buying modules for every mech instead of swapping, they have amassed enough XP (mech and/or general) to essentially ignore XP costs, even in the new system.

What I think is a far more positive thing about the new system is that the new player experience becomes much more intuitive and familiar to a typical gamer. The rule of three with its various sub-rules for eliting and mastering and the differences between mech, variant, chassis and weight class was a nightmare to teach to new players. The new system, even with it's massive number of clicks, is similar enough to other games that new players should be able to intuit at least the basic mechanics of how it works even if they aren't sure what the terminology within each node means specifically. And, allowing new players to branch out and buy different chassis with their four free mech bays instead of grinding out three variants of one chassis and then selling them to start on another can only help to keep new players interested longer.

[MischiefSC]

orcrist86, on 26 April 2017 - 10:07 PM, said:

That's not even remotely what I said dude. not at all. It is in fact, the complete opposite.

My bad then, I took what you said as saying PGI was trying to refund the value in the old system into the newer system, which includes cbills in the cost.

Monkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

well the gxp refund should be a gxp refund its from the unlock module screen. I basically had everything unlock but a few clan weapons.

Again i think i would be better off because at this point i think i would only master maybe 15 mechs. I dont play almost any of my mechs anymore. Might do a few of them for lols with the new tech but most are junk.

But im sure most people wouldnt be happy with this

That GXP you'd get back as GXP, true enough.

So you'd only ever master 15 mechs? Not getting new mechs?

Fair enough. However for most people, both people with more than a few mechs and who would get new mechs in the future, the new system PGI has offered is vastly more generous. Also I sorta like the idea of being over-refunded so much I can max out mechs I probably would have never bothered to master up.

WarHippy, on 26 April 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

I would rather the SP essentially be worthless(which it wouldn't be) than going with anything resembling the previous system which is what you are basically advocating for in the OP. If we can only have one or the other I would much rather have the one that is over generous in our favor than one that is overly punishing of people that have a lot of mechs.

I'm saying the new system is vastly, vastly more generous than the old system. Hence I've been mocking people who are saying the new system is 'cheating' them. I'm putting into context exactly how much better the new refund option is than the old one. So much so that people are now raging that they don't get everything from both systems at the same time.

[Dogstar]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

That's a completely fair refund as it gets you back exactly what you spent to date.

It's also exactly the refund PGI originally proposed that screws over anyone who bought more than a few mechs.

It's not fair because you have to spend more on the skill tree than you did before, meaning mech collectors are seriously screwed and literally have to grind for years to get back to where they were.

Also, people who spent a lot of c-bills on modules get back more money than they need to skill up mechs, and can buy all the new weapons giving them a huge advantage.

Your proposal of 'fair' is so short-sighted that you'd kill off the game entirely.

Edited by Dogstar, 26 April 2017 - 10:29 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Lukoi Banacek, on 26 April 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

What they COULD do that I'd really appreciate is a slider bar in my refund ledge that lets me sell some GSP (cap it to be limited to the # of modules I purchased or whatever, or to some date like the December one being bandied about) and let me sell the excess that way, as opposed to the night before patch day forcing me to log on, strip mechs, do math and then sell a bunch of mechs lol.

This right here would fix all the problems with a very simple idea and stop all the dumpster fires from all corners.

How PGI have not thought ahead and just done that, I dunno.

Don't sell mechs too early though even if the great "de-quirkening" is coming lol, who knows what is going to happen and where the dust will settle.

I think by about Sept we'll know which mechs we can sell because with ST and severely lower quirks over IS mechs, it's gonna be pure hardpoint warrior online - Lots of my crappy 3rd variants will get sold as a result (if that is how it pans out).