223 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 29 April 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

What is "comp" is generally not actually that good in Solo because you are operating under very different conditions... so something like a Pokebear which is as "Comp" as it gets is next to useless while the Dakka Bear is the God-Emperor Mech of the battlefield, all the Meta mechs are actually very sub-optimal for Solo play and too many of those Cancer Mechs will always kill a team. It is hard enough for the Team to carry a Pokebear and ACH/RVN-3L but once you start adding a NTG or two and that team is guaranteed to lose most of the time

Sure, PokeBear is a comp-only mech that is next to useless in solo, very sub-optimal, and a cancer mech that needs to be carried...

Sure. That's why somebody like me, who is terrible in assaults (don't really own any, and certainly don't play them much) ... can accomplish this in solo queue. Somebody like me... who almost never breaks 900 damage.







But maybe if you put four of these cancer meta comp PPC tryhards in the same lance, they'll become an overburden. Too much dead weight that needs to be carried by their team.






Or maybe comp builds are comp builds because they are the best builds. Sure, there are some niche comp builds like 4x cERLL Hellbringers and such which don't work that well in solo, but even those builds aren't used frequently in comp, they only come into play in very niche scenarios. The vast majority of builds that players use in high level comp are pretty much the same builds that they bring to solo and group queue.


Also, ACH? Really? The one mech that the masses complain about the most as being overpowered, impossible to kill, and earning the moniker "Arctic Cheater" and you call it a mech that needs to be carried by its team?

And the RVN-3L? Which hasn't seen competitive use in what... three years?

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Hit the Deck, on 29 April 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

I think I'm glad that I waited until the very end before buying the Mad Cat Mk. II because the 3D model isn't as nice as the concept art.

I do hope that they will fix that so I can buy it for C-Bills.

meh... anything is worth buying for C-Bills

[Y E O N N E]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Also, ACH? Really? The one mech that the masses complain about the most as being overpowered, impossible to kill, and earning the moniker "Arctic Cheater" and you call it a mech that needs to be carried by its team?

To be fair, all Lights need to be carried by the team, at least enough to where they can get shots in without retaliation. That's how they have always worked.

[Pariah Devalis]

Scout Derek, on 29 April 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

One thing I noticed is the leg joint design. I'll circle it right now in this crudely made red piece O' crap circle image I made:



- In the in-game model art, the circle piston found on the back of the leg is larger and longer than the original concept art.
-The In-game model has a pad of sorts for it's thigh. It's the circle closest to where the torso meets with the legs. The pad (not the one facing upwards, but outwards), is a bit elongated more than what the concept art had originally had.

At Least, that's what I see as far as differences that are noticeable aside from the arm lengths.

Actually, what I find interesting about the leg design is that they went with a scissor joint. Didn't they avoid doing that on the Timberwolf and Mad Dog because of concerns on how it would animate? I find this interesting. I like the joint design, but it is curious that it is OK on this mech, but was not OK prior on the others.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 April 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Actually, what I find interesting about the leg design is that they went with a scissor joint. Didn't they avoid doing that on the Timberwolf and Mad Dog because of concerns on how it would animate? I find this interesting. I like the joint design, but it is curious that it is OK on this mech, but was not OK prior on the others.

They got guder, apparently.

I just wish they'd stop using ugly semigloss textures and specular on the cockpit glass. Go look at the cockpit glass on the Blackjacks or Hellbringers, then go look at the newer 'Mechs. So ugly on the newer 'Mechs. Even the Catapult got whacked with the ugly-glass when they remodeled it.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 April 2017 - 01:37 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I use comp-mechs in solo queue all of the time and doesn't seem to hurt my scores, stats, win % etc. I don't usually however, take my purely-for-fun mechs from solo queue into comp play.

I'd argue that all of the mechs mentioned by Zuul are indeed very capable in solo queue and it's not the mech that's the issue, it's the playstyle. Things play out in solo where there's much less control/coordination (people doing different things, trying builds, playing drunk etc -- just having some fun).

So I think it's safer to say, playing a specialized "comp" build can at times be less forgiving than playing a more rounded out build. By that same token, playing a slow assault is much less forgiving for the same reason. It's just tougher to get it into the fight, especially if your pugmates NASCAR away from you and you get gobbled up by the lights who are inevitably chasing your team's tail.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Sure, PokeBear is a comp-only mech that is next to useless in solo, very sub-optimal, and a cancer mech that needs to be carried...

Sure. That's why somebody like me, who is terrible in assaults (don't really own any, and certainly don't play them much) ... can accomplish this in solo queue. Somebody like me... who almost never breaks 900 damage.

Look at the break down of the rest of the Team... lots of decent midrange mediums, also it was horrifically terrible enemy team by them not pushing D5 to E4. So yes... in very small number on ideal maps against terribads, then you can definitely Win More. Win More to a massive degree... as soon as you get pushed into by even a mildly compentent team who can keep cohension then you will get easily rolled over since you have nowhere the DPS to fight in anything but the longest ranges possible. So unless you premise is that you do that CONSISTENTLY while Winning then your isolated event is irrelevant, there are people who insist that LRMs are the worst thing ever even though I can CONSISTENTLY get 800 damage 3 Kills and 7 KMDDs on every map not Mining.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 29 April 2017 - 01:46 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Actually, what I find interesting about the leg design is that they went with a scissor joint. Didn't they avoid doing that on the Timberwolf and Mad Dog because of concerns on how it would animate? I find this interesting. I like the joint design, but it is curious that it is OK on this mech, but was not OK prior on the others.

I think that they'll be introducing some very new walk animations alongside the new tech for these mechs. I'd expect the old mw4 walking animation to make a debut for it:

Yeonne Greene, on 29 April 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

They got guder, apparently.

I just wish they'd stop using ugly semigloss textures and specular on the cockpit glass. Go look at the cockpit glass on the Blackjacks or Hellbringers, then go look at the newer 'Mechs. So ugly on the newer 'Mechs. Even the Catapult got whacked with the ugly-glass when they remodeled it.

mmm. Perhaps with after the update with new mechs and tech they can further redo the cockpit glass and introduce new ones.

Who knows, maybe they'll go a step further in cosmetics and start introducing glass that you can change the colors of and textures too (textures being Matte, gloss, etc)

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Sure, PokeBear is a comp-only mech that is next to useless in solo, very sub-optimal, and a cancer mech that needs to be carried...

Sure. That's why somebody like me, who is terrible in assaults (don't really own any, and certainly don't play them much) ... can accomplish this in solo queue. Somebody like me... who almost never breaks 900 damage.







But maybe if you put four of these cancer meta comp PPC tryhards in the same lance, they'll become an overburden. Too much dead weight that needs to be carried by their team.






Or maybe comp builds are comp builds because they are the best builds. Sure, there are some niche comp builds like 4x cERLL Hellbringers and such which don't work that well in solo, but even those builds aren't used frequently in comp, they only come into play in very niche scenarios. The vast majority of builds that players use in high level comp are pretty much the same builds that they bring to solo and group queue.


Also, ACH? Really? The one mech that the masses complain about the most as being overpowered, impossible to kill, and earning the moniker "Arctic Cheater" and you call it a mech that needs to be carried by its team?

And the RVN-3L? Which hasn't seen competitive use in what... three years?

Don't take this the wrong way...but one or two examples don't make or break the idea.

Fact is, many times the cutting edge of COmp tactics and Tech, aren't as effective in Solo PUG play. And other times, the Meta is so damn button mash simple, like the KDK3, that yes, even the Noobs can use it.

Still doesn't make what works in comp play a 1 for 1 translation to the game most non comp players see day in, day out, no matter how much CompNation want's to believe they are the end all, be all reason for any damn game to exist.

[Tarogato]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 29 April 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

as soon as you get pushed into by even a mildly compentent team who can keep cohension then you will get easily rolled over since you have nowhere the DPS to fight in anything but the longest ranges possible.

Clearly you've never went PPC brawling in group queue. Doesn't matter what map it is, as long as the opponents are at or below your skill level, you roll over them with your supposedly inferior DPS. Why? Because it's a better loadout than you're giving it credit for. And if they rush you? You spread out and receive them.

And if they enemy is the same skill as you or higher? Then they probably already have PPFLD themselves, unless they're messing around.

You're suggesting that brawl beats PPFLD. And it doesn't. They're actually pretty equally balanced - it all comes down to execution, or which team is better.

Also, earlier in this thread you said, "PPFLD do not really use "shield arms" since they are not brawling or even mid-range" ... which is not true. PPFLD is the midrange currently. What is better at midrange than PPFLD currently? What do you take? Laservomit, be it IS or Clan? Laservomit gets destroyed by PPFLD in the current meta. Dedicated and organised dakka pushing and straight brawl are the only things that can stand up to PPFLD at the moment (as well as ERLL in rare circumstances)

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

So I think it's safer to say, playing a specialized "comp" build can at times be less forgiving than playing a more rounded out build. By that same token, playing a slow assault is much less forgiving for the same reason. It's just tougher to get it into the fight, especially if your pugmates NASCAR away from you and you get gobbled up by the lights who are inevitably chasing your team's tail.

This is very much the point, overall.

And considering what is or isn't effective for comp play shifts, this is hard ot pin down examples that always work. I'd say the current meta is overall my noob friendly in many ways, although to be actually effective with a Night Gyr poptart is usually beyond the skill scope of the average player. Because the reality of current poptarting is it's ot as easy as it was back when it was the all encompassing Meta. That said, if you do have the skill to leverage it, the Night Gyr is very very effective.

But the various KDK3 builds are so darn effective, they can post scores no matter the environment.

Sometimes the Meta favors buttonmash. That translates well. Sometimes the Meta actually requires skill and coordination to maximize (sword and board armor sharing or current heavy?Assault poptarting).

The issue I take, and am guessing ZUUL also, though I could be wrong is the insistence from certain portions of the competitive playerbase that what works in Comp ALWAYS works direct port over, to the general public.

Because it doesn't.

And yes it would be equally foolish to assume my PUG curbstomper will work worth a damn in a Comp Match. Because the tactics, play level, etc is so different in the two extremes. Even the difference between ply between Group and Solo elevates or invalidates some builds.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

Clearly you've never went PPC brawling in group queue. Doesn't matter what map it is, as long as the opponents are at or below your skill level, you roll over them with your supposedly inferior DPS. Why? Because it's a better loadout than you're giving it credit for. And if they rush you? You spread out and receive them.

And if they enemy is the same skill as you or higher? Then they probably already have PPFLD themselves, unless they're messing around.

You're suggesting that brawl beats PPFLD. And it doesn't. They're actually pretty equally balanced - it all comes down to execution, or which team is better.

Also, earlier in this thread you said, "PPFLD do not really use "shield arms" since they are not brawling or even mid-range" ... which is not true. PPFLD is the midrange currently. What is better at midrange than PPFLD currently? What do you take? Laservomit, be it IS or Clan? Laservomit gets destroyed by PPFLD in the current meta. Dedicated and organised dakka pushing and straight brawl are the only things that can stand up to PPFLD at the moment (as well as ERLL in rare circumstances)

In Comp Play*

Since there is a VERY clear distinction being made here, try to keep up. Just like the team I was just on ROLLED the other team 12-4 that had a total of 5 of those "meta" PPFLD builds you are saying is so good, they get smashed when they play against me. I call the match and call the target and point out that if you get in their face they can not put out the damage... not shockingly at all, when you tell your teammates how that MAD-IIC/KDK is not actually a real threat they jump them and then the "meta" mech dies quickly while smashing the S button as hard as they can. So having 5 Cancer Mechs is way too much to not kill the team they are infested onto... they all die backing up and unsupported, CAUSE IT IS PUG QUEUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hit the Deck]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 29 April 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

meh... anything is worth buying for C-Bills

Nah, for people who seldom play like me, even c-bills is a valuable resource.

[Scout Derek]

Hit the Deck, on 29 April 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Nah, for people who seldom play like me, even c-bills is a valuable resource.

Especially if you don't have any heroes or special variants.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 29 April 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

So having 5 Cancer Mechs is way too much to not kill the team they are infested onto... they all die backing up and unsupported, CAUSE IT IS PUG QUEUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But those aren't cancer mechs. They are manned by players who aren't good in them. There's a difference.

If I see a poptart NTG, I don't assume it's a god among men but I do assume it's a stronger mech than the 9-ERLL KDK-1 I played with and against multiple times last night.

If I get in a mech that requires more patience, better situational awareness to ensure proper positioning, or sacrifices self-defense to specialize in long range poke, that's a conscious decision, knowing that I'm taking it to pubqueue without support.

Just like if you take a DWF. It's so damned slow, you know you're going to get left in the cold pretty damned often. It's a condition of the queue, less so a damning indictment of the mech. And frankly, the DWF isn't a great mech anyway imo (but fun).

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 29 April 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Nah, for people who seldom play like me, even c-bills is a valuable resource.

Not just those who seldom play... I experiment too much, and smurfy only tells me so much.... so I buy stuff to build, then testing ground, then modify, .... a lot. I'm always space poor because.

I still think one of the biggest things I would love to see added is the ability to "test drive" builds in Testing Ground before you actually hit "BUY".

Simply add a testing ground tab in the Mechlab listed along with purchase, weapon group, save, etc.

Scout Derek, on 29 April 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Especially if you don't have any heroes or special variants.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

But those aren't cancer mechs. They are manned by players who aren't good in them. There's a difference.

There is. BUT, if you go by the party line being pushed by some here, even to some degree Taragato, those are the robots even bads should be using.

And obviously, they are not. Because a Bad will be uberbad in a Night Gyr poptart, and even a joe average like me, is more likely to be less effective than using a less skill dependent design.

BUT.... if you listen to what many elements of Comp Nation are selling, here, on Smurfy, Reddit and Metamechs? If you wanna be good you gotta drive this Tier 1 Meta Mech!

And obviously, Joe Scrub is going to jump in the seat, thinking buying that new Dodge Viper ACR will make him into a GT3 driver. When in reality it will more likely just get him in a wreck and killed.

Perhaps more effort put out to explain and educate on what does or doesn't work, might mitigate some of this? (though reading the forums, we also see a lot of people with...shall we say, inflated opinions of their actual skill? Not seeing any way to fix that, sadly). Because obviously, there are mechs that are scrub bad, and educating folks not to drive them, can only help the overall play level. But too often, we simply are told "NO! Comp Way or NO WAY!".

And that's not really helping, either.

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Still doesn't make what works in comp play a 1 for 1 translation to the game most non comp players see day in, day out, no matter how much CompNation want's to believe they are the end all, be all reason for any damn game to exist.

Eh, you seem to think that the comp-minded player wants the entire game to only be the way THEY want play it. But the reality is, they don't care what the game is, they'll find what's best and stick with it until something changes. And they won't complain when it does change, unless the new meta is objectively boring (imagine if Narc+LRMs were the strongest playstyle right now... )

And what do non-comp players see day in and day out? They see less optimal builds in the public queue. Sure, can you be effective in that environment while playing something outside of the meta? Of course you can. Why? Because most of the mechs you'll encounter aren't playing the meta. But if more people started taking the meta, you'd begin to find yourself at a disadvantage.

It's like saying... you have a sword, and you want to go on 14th century killing spree. Everybody else is running around with knives and swords, so you can compete with them just fine. But what if a few of them figured out they could carry guns instead? Why would you choose to keep carrying the sword, if you could have a gun yourself? I'd carry the gun all the time, even if my odds of running into somebody else with a gun is fairly low. And that's how I feel about optimised builds in MWO.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Eh, you seem to think that the comp-minded player wants the entire game to only be the way THEY want play it.

Because no offense, despite what some people say, and no I don]t claim this is all encompassing...but the very things being protested against, and the like, oftentimes do indicate exactly that.

And if boring wasn't excepted so easily, we wouldn't have had what... a year and a half of Poptarting that so many protested vehemently against seeing ended?

For every player like yourself or Quicksilver I see post, I read 5-6 posts that are pretty blatant "Winning at any cost, any tactic is the only acceptable fun"..... even if it is playing wackamole over and over again.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 April 2017 - 02:26 PM.

[Tarogato]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 29 April 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

In Comp Play*

Since there is a VERY clear distinction being made here, try to keep up. Just like the team I was just on ROLLED the other team 12-4 that had a total of 5 of those "meta" PPFLD builds you are saying is so good, they get smashed when they play against me. I call the match and call the target and point out that if you get in their face they can not put out the damage... not shockingly at all, when you tell your teammates how that MAD-IIC/KDK is not actually a real threat they jump them and then the "meta" mech dies quickly while smashing the S button as hard as they can. So having 5 Cancer Mechs is way too much to not kill the team they are infested onto... they all die backing up and unsupported, CAUSE IT IS PUG QUEUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like you're describing a situation where your group had better players than the enemy. So is it really that surprising you won? If they were at your skill level, it would have been an even match, and whoever executed better would have won.

You're saying basically this:

"The meta mechs and builds which are carefully weeded out by the hundreds of competitive players trying to find the strongest mechs and builds are at a disadvantage compared to non-meta builds."

Please explain to me how this makes any sense.



And remember what I said, brawl meta is fairly equally balanced with PPFLD currently. So yeah, if scrubs are bringing PPFLD, and you're brawl or DPS? You'll beat them. Because you are better. Not because PPFLD is worse.