223 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

The6thMessenger, on 29 April 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Now we're at it, can you make it so that the Ultra AC10 and Ultra AC20s would be Over-Under than side by side on arm mounts? Cause they look ugly as hell when put at something like an Urbanmech.

Oh please please please this.

And you know what would help them look LESS liek mufflers, also? Actually having a little barrel wall thickness (aka smaller inner bores) because as it is now, the loo like the barrels of real cheap shotguns.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

I think where I disagree with you both to some extent is I am pretty content to say where the coordination and tactics of Group?Comp Play provide absolutes, there are NO absolutes in Public Play. No one "perfect answer", but all have weaknesses than can be exploited (which I like, being an agent of Chaos).

Actually, this is all I have been saying. Public queue being a mad house, there is no "perfect" answer. No "one great thing," and the difference between what is considered the best and what is simply good enough is a lot wider a margin there than in a competitive setting.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 April 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Ah, there's the crux of the matter. I couldn't disagree more.

In my opinion, brawl is rather weak for public queue. It's somewhat workable when you have four brawlers working together on comms, and somewhere around seven or more organised players it certainly approaches being overpowered. But if you have fewer than four coordinated players, I feel it is very weak. And certainly very weak (frustratingly so) in solo queue.

Wat.

I have spent most of my playing career in solo queue. Certainly, ever since I left my unit, I've played only a tiny, tiny number of group queue matches. My most-played 'Mechs are all brawl-range 'Mechs. My most-played Heavy (MAD-5D) runs pop-brawl builds and tactics exclusively. It consistently performs near the top of the scoreboard, even after the nerfs to its size, agility, and missile quirks. Even on Polar Highlands.

If you don't have the patience and/or experience to know how to wield it, then brawl comes off as awful. Certainly, a lack of jump jets does have a tremendous impact on your options within the match and can exacerbate it. There is also the team factor. However, none of that is any different than the drawbacks you have to account for when running PPFLD.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 April 2017 - 06:23 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

Oh please please please this.

And you know what would help them look LESS liek mufflers, also? Actually having a little barrel wall thickness (aka smaller inner bores) because as it is now, the loo like the barrels of real cheap shotguns.

Shotguns which i wouldn't even shoot {Godwin's Law} and Stalin with. I'd empty an entire belt of 7.92mm Mauser from an MG42 though.

Still, i get why they would do that -- another rapid fire technique is the Gast-Gun, where the rearward motion of the other barrel propels the forward motion of another, and vise versa. So having a double-barrel auto-cannon isn't far fetched.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

They are strong, though I don't know if I still call them all purpose ideal. Fortunately in public queue, I don't think anything truly qualifies. But even with a good shotcaller, one is better off getting up in the grill one a Night Gyr poptart than to give him the space and time to play the poptart game. And if you come across say a PPFLD KDK3, they are more vulnerable (though still dang good) to overwhelm tactics than the DakkaBear is, especially against decent shielding brawlers.

But not denying the gap is smaller than it has been ATM. Though if the QQ over the skill tree and Quirk nerf is to be believed, that gap might just be widening again. And just mechanics are currently closer to on par, doesn't actually mean the heart of the mentality has changed. Maybe it has, but still see way too much "One Truth" posting around here to fully buy in.

Problem with the skill tree as is -

take any meta laservomit, especially clan. Now give him 7% extra heat gen and 15%laser duration and 10% range quirks. Take the night but. Give him PPC velocity buffs and Gauss charge up quirks. Now take mediocre mechs, give them unfinished basics, 3 pts of extra armor but keeping radar derp.

That's the new skill tree. Smart players in meta get a huge buff, mediocre in non meta get nerfed.

[Bishop Steiner]

The6thMessenger, on 29 April 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

Shotguns which i wouldn't even shoot {Godwin's Law} and Stalin with. I'd empty an entire belt of 7.92mm Mauser from an MG42 though.

Still, i get why they would do that -- another rapid fire technique is the Gast-Gun, where the rearward motion of the other barrel propels the forward motion of another, and vise versa. So having a double-barrel auto-cannon isn't far fetched.

double barrel is fine. I just don't like the model for it. I agree with you, over under would look better, and having a proper barrel wall, too. The barrels are too short and thick for them to be so thin, visually.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

There are more than a few and they are all over solo queue. Good players are good players, period. Position play. Speed and aggression are hallmarks of being successful at this game and the comp scene to a very,large degree. So again, you have no proof that meta mechs are some cancerous in the solo queue, there is no logical reason to expect them to be so, so we will have to disagree that they are indeed detrimental to teams in the solo queue.

Frankly, I cannot think of a single current era mech Ive seen used in Div A B or C of MRBC this season that,isnt regularly used to good effect in solo queue.

Solid, effective mechs played by selfish or poorly skilled (or the too drunk, or folks just going through the motions) are only going to be as good as that effort. But **** mech builds,typically take extra effort to run with good results.

I know most of them who drop regularly and the difference between the good ones and the overwhelming majority of the rest is that while both kinds HATE me, the good ones at least do what I say. Which is to STAY with the Team when we move forwards... talking about "I am in range of my weapons" while hiding in the back in a 100T machine of death earns the abuse someone gets when that say something that terrible to me. Cohesion & Focusing Fire while moving forwards is how you Win in PUGlandia, those builds are completely against that concept since they are doing Hide & Poke Bulls hit. Since you are dealing with Low Trust levels then operating isolated already is indicative of what kind of selfish mindset you have and since they are already predetermining themselves to be selfish, I know it is super easy to make them break and die like chumps smashing the S button. Getting people to move forward together makes a much better team, getting shot in the front with other mechs around you has a much higher probability of staying together (then it is just a constant monitoring & yelling at people who try to chase the Locust in their Assaults, lost 3 already Won games today by idiots doing that.)

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 29 April 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Again you are confusing the build with selfish play, which is no different from an LRM mech, or laser vomit mech, hiding in the back using fellow pugs as armor. The poptart NTG, the poke bear, the dakka bear (also meta), the Timberbelle (GR/PPC), GHR, BLR etc etc can all fight selflessly, aggressively and as part of the push.

None of your personal anecdotes invalidate any of that. I play most of my games in solo queue by a large margin, 80-90% a month, and see undoubtedly the same guys you do. Its not the mech thats problematic, its the player. Everything you are saying, I can say about useless LRM pilots who hang in the back barely ever hitting targets, or the ERLL scratch and skirmish lights and mediums who die at the very end but claiming their high damage farming was somehow integral to the match, or the light pilot who believes blissfully charging in, popping a uav and dying in the first 2 mins is important info warfare. Those are all forms of selfish play.

Saying a NTG poptart is cancerous because it promotes selfish play flies in the face of all the stupid l, squirrel chasing **** we all see in pug queue. Its not the "meta mechs" holding teams back, its usually bad play. Simple as that. Bad builds iust make it worse, but I dont know of many if any comp builds that really qualify as that.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 29 April 2017 - 07:14 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Again you are confusing the build with selfish play, which is no different from an LRM mech, or laser vomit mech, hiding in the back using fellow pugs as armor. The poptart NTG, the poke bear, the dakka bear (also meta), the Timberbelle (GR/PPC), GHR, BLR etc etc can all fight selflessly, aggressively and as part of the push.

The dakka bear is the God-Emperor Mech of the battlefield in Solo queue... do not ever include him with the rest. Realistically they "could" do it but that is not even close to being what they are designed for with the long recharge times and poor heat management on quite a bit of them. So x4 UAC5s on a NTG will always be better as an "aggressive part of the push" then the Meta version would ever be... because it also has the capability to continuously keep hitting the enemy mech which goes a long way to psychologically breaking them, which is a very real factor in PUG that is virtually non-existent in Comp. So while I can use my car to demolish a brick wall if I crash into the wall hard enough, not only is my car not good at it there are much better options.

Quote

None of your personal anecdotes invalidate any of that. I play most of my games in solo queue by a large margin, 80-90% a month, and see undoubtedly the same guys you do. Its not the mech thats problematic, its the player. Everything you are saying, I can say about useless LRM pilots who hang in the back barely ever hitting targets, or the ERLL scratch and skirmish lights and mediums who die at the very end but claiming their high damage farming was somehow integral to the match, or the light pilot who believes blissfully charging in, popping a uav and dying in the first 2 mins is important info warfare. Those are all forms of selfish play.

Saying a NTG poptart is cancerous because it promotes selfish play flies in the face of all the stupid l, squirrel chasing **** we all see in pug queue. Its not the "meta mechs" holding teams back, its usually bad play. Simple as that. Bad builds iust make it worse, but I dont know of many if any comp builds that really qualify as that.

LRM pilots who do that are incompetent... the vast majority of people who are playing PPFLD are doing it because they mean to, there is a huge difference between Intent when judging a persons actions.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Zuul, if I thought for a moment that you knew people's intent in game, you theory might have credence but since you cannot back anything up you're saying with anything other than opinion and supposition, why would anyone listen to this.

The Dakka KDK is both comp and solo queue competitive. As is virtually every single comp build out there. Arguing otherwise based on your belief in people's intentions is pretty out there.

You're main issue with "comp builds" btw seems to be lumping GR/PPC mechs into the category as the only comp mechs, which is also a falsehood.

Dakka mechs are comp. Laser vomit is used in comp. Brawlers are used in comp. ALL with regularity. So your real conspiracy theory complaint here is with selfish poptart players, which again, I'd argue is proof that selfish play is the problem, not the builds.

Yes, poptarts aren't optimal in a push usually...if you only deathball. But they are just fine in aggressive pushes if you stay spread out so the enemy has to choose which of you to deal with. Just because mechs might be easier in solo queue to be effective in, doesn't invalidate comp builds. Not by a mile.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lukoi Banacek, on 30 April 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Yes, poptarts aren't optimal in a push usually...if you only deathball. But they are just fine in aggressive pushes if you stay spread out so the enemy has to choose which of you to deal with. Just because mechs might be easier in solo queue to be effective in, doesn't invalidate comp builds. Not by a mile.

Murderball works... "spreading out" is just begging to fragment the team in Solo or what usually happens is that the enemy Murderball a portion of that spread out line and then easily roll the rest. You and Mischief both suffer from the fundamental failure of not being able to recognize what you have to work with... it is a distinctly different composition. I also do not subscribe to the "Its just PUGs what do you expect" viewpoint because utterly failing to do basic level things is not acceptable but I also do not expect them to be able to accomplish things that require High Trust relationships & Good Discipline. The most basic cursory knowledge on military strategy would let you know you do not use Militia to serve as the center of the line, no that is where you put your hardened veterans with the highest morale... Why? Because it is unreasonable to expect more from people then they are capable of doing... so once you understand that different tactics work better in Solo Queue because they have a much higher chance of achieving success, then you would naturally see that different builds are clearly superior for those tactics. At exactly zero points have I claimed they were better in Comp, just that what is the "best" in Comp is rarely even that good in Solo... as a general rule they are Win More mechs which rely upon gaining a small advantage early and maintaining that advantage throughtout, I can totally respect that as a strategy since it is how I play Chess myself being that I am not that amazing but can hold my own with State level players using it by riding that single pawn advantage all the way to the bitter end. Solo Queue is way way way too chaotic to reasonably expect that and very few Mechs are built for and even fewer pilots have the training and/or discipline to do it... there it is all about riding forward momentum, DPS, & good heat management to victory. All things that the "meta" mechs are not conducive to doing

[Rekkon]

El Bandito, on 28 April 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

Oh baby, those Cougar ballistic mounts are just so perfect for making it a Clan Hollander! I am gonna put a 12 ton Clan Gauss on it, and have some fun... except it is the Hero variant. Well played, PGI.

And if no one already pointed it out, there are only 5 slots available in each side torso unless the RT DHS is not locked.

[CK16]

back to topic please!
https://mwomercs.com...el-adjustments/

[Lukoi Banacek]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 April 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Murderball works... "spreading out" does as well.

FTFY.

I think my performance in the solo queue speaks well to this. I could name off dozens of people I see regularly in solo queue that understand this quite well.

Murderball works "well" if by that you mean it allows people to stay closer together to help if things go south. It also means problems as guys get in each others ways, bottleneck in choke points, block each other's firing lines etc.

If your preferred tactic is press W and "overwhelm" everyone with a giant murderball, good on. It's not the only tactic.

Are we still arguing that comp mechs cannot be effective in solo queue and they're cancerous (your exact word)? Or are we past that and now you're just arguing that they're less optimal for the dirty-masses of casuals, you think either cannot run them effectively, or choose to be selfish with them? Your point doesn't seem to stay consistent.

Btw, I've not once said that comp mechs, or hyper-specialized mechs aren't more difficult to use effectively in solo play. I'm arguing with you about your original hyperbole that they are doom for a team in solo queue when they clearly are not.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 30 April 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

**** it, I want the Annihilator, 2xLL, 2xERML, 2xUAC5, 2xLB2X, LFE300 for the base one, grab the hero pack too and do do something like 2xLPPC 3xSNPPC 4xMRM10 LFE300 or maybe 4xLPL 4xMRM10 LFE300 on it. Forget all the builds I came up with the other day, but, I have some hilarious ideas for it. the other two base pack versions I am eh on, but, well, no rule of 3 so whatever.

[El Bandito]

Rekkon, on 30 April 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

And if no one already pointed it out, there are only 5 slots available in each side torso unless the RT DHS is not locked.

No one did. That's such a waste of good ST mount.

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 30 April 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

No one did. That's such a waste of good ST mount.

That sorbo meme was so tasty I had to look up the reference directly;



A
Maze
Ing

[dimachaerus]

Overall I like the looks, they're even giving the mechs that should have nice long gun barrels, something more than a flaccid little box.

Now if only they'd fix the energy hardpoints on the phoenix hawks right arm and flip the ultra barrels to vertical, I'd say most everything is right with the world. Can't wait for my RAC urbie.

[stealthraccoon]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

double barrel is fine. I just don't like the model for it. I agree with you, over under would look better, and having a proper barrel wall, too. The barrels are too short and thick for them to be so thin, visually.

Superimposed barrels would be far better looking, and if you've ever tried sighting in a side-by-side rifle, well they don't regulate so easily... They always have sarna fluff about 'cooling jackets' - need a barrel shroud or "shoulder-thing-that-goes-up" to make it proper.

[Bishop Steiner]

stealthraccoon, on 30 April 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

Superimposed barrels would be far better looking, and if you've ever tried sighting in a side-by-side rifle, well they don't regulate so easily... They always have sarna fluff about 'cooling jackets' - need a barrel shroud or "shoulder-thing-that-goes-up" to make it proper.

really not how these work. Look up the ZU-23 Autocannon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2