63 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Prestige.

The skill tree is a textbook example of redundant complexity (complexity that adds no strategic depth) and horrible horrible design.

They are reluctant to admit it to us and perhaps to themselves, their pride compels them to defend it.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 April 2017 - 02:32 AM.

[cazidin]

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

Prestige.

The skill tree is a textbook example of redundant complexity (complexity that adds no strategic depth) and horrible horrible design.

They are reluctant to admit it to us and perhaps to themselves, their pride compels them to defend it.

Pride cometh before thine fall.

[Alan Davion]

Catten Hart, on 28 April 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Anyways. Just let both the old placeholder skill system die, and let the new one die too. Find a new way to get a money grind. As it stands, the web's causing too much whining among the community, and the old one just sucks. If PGI actually *wants* to go for the "Competitive" route, they need to look at what other companies do-and I don't mean World of Tanks, I mean stuff like League or Smite. As much as I hate both of those.

Pay for Cosmetics, new Mechs, Hero Mechs, Premium time. Use the free C-Bills for everything else. Bam. Nobody's at a higher level because they played longer, beyond skill rating. Instead of dealing with this confusing and apparently infuriating skill tree.

Except all of that requires one thing. Getting Russ and Paul the f*** out of their controlling positions. Because all of that makes actual common sense, and these two have proven time after time they are incapable of believing that common sense actually exists.

And the chances of that happening are about as remote as the Vulcans or literally any other alien species out there discovering this pathetic dustball of a world we live on.

They'd take one look at all the BS still being flung around all over the world and think we were a giant insane asylum.

Well, maybe not the Klingons... They'd just come down and enslave or slaughter the lot of us.

[cazidin]

Alan Davion, on 29 April 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

Except all of that requires one thing. Getting Russ and Paul the f*** out of their controlling positions. Because all of that makes actual common sense, and these two have proven time after time they are incapable of believing that common sense actually exists.

And the chances of that happening are about as remote as the Vulcans or literally any other alien species out there discovering this pathetic dustball of a world we live on.

They'd take one look at all the BS still being flung around all over the world and think we were a giant insane asylum.

Well, maybe not the Klingons... They'd just come down and enslave or slaughter the lot of us.

We're stuck with the hex system, aren't we? Also, why are you referencing Star Trek? I'm not complaining I just find it... /raises eyebrow ...highly illogical.

[nehebkau]

cazidin, on 28 April 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why is PGI so adamant against a simple skill tree, rather than this maze-like circuit of low level hexes? They've fixed the refund process, mostly. Engine-agility decoupling seems fine now. They even buffed the blast door damage reduction but THIS? Why is THIS still a problem?

PGI has been together too long without enough shake-ups in the senior management levels. This has ended up with a group of people who come up with 'OK' ideas but lack the critical thinking and edginess that you get in a company when old-blood is let and new blood brought in. Likewise, Russ loathes his community, except for a few of his hipsters and so, any decent ideas that the community puts forward never actually get a decent hearing in the company.

The best thing for the company would be if Russ took a big step back and concentrated on what CEO's do -- promote the brand build the business and then put down some hard targets for his management team to make in regards to growth and income. When or if they fail to meet those targets he gets rid of some and brings in new blood.

[Tordin]

cazidin, on 28 April 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Back to the topic at hand, gentlemen.

WHY do they simply refuse to implement this one change that would not only make this system simpler, more streamlined and easier for them, but also make the playerbase happy?

Because they want to avoid going people full on ONE weapon Specialist boating, neglecting varity, hurting Generalist builds?

Still I dont know whats the worst, PGI's ignorance (mostly) of some great ideas from the players they could implement among their own OR the communitys crying (mostly) over either not getting enough general skill points in refunds for modules ("cheapskates" Im one, just not the whiny one) or the greedy c-bill lords wanting c-bills instead of getting modules refunded as points.

Edited by Tordin, 29 April 2017 - 03:34 PM.

[Marius Romanis]

cazidin, on 28 April 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

They've fixed the refund process, mostly.

Nope.

WE DONT GET TO SEE WHICH OF OUR MODULES ARE DEFINATELY FROM BEFORE DEC 3RD SO WE CANNOT SELL THEM BACK AT HALF VALUE COZ WE CANT BE SURE THEY ARE NOT ONES THAT WE WOULD GET FULL REFUND FROM. BECAUSE PGI COULDNT EVEN RELOAD THE PTS WITH THE CORRECT DATE FOR THE LEDGER AND LEFT IT AT FEB 8TH....

I cant remember what modules I bought before / after dec 3rd and I want to sell about half my pre dec 3rd modules back at 50% value so im not sitting on 75+ mechs of GSP, just 30 worth. Cant do that unless they give us PTS with the correct date for the ledger.

[Alan Davion]

cazidin, on 29 April 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

We're stuck with the hex system, aren't we? Also, why are you referencing Star Trek? I'm not complaining I just find it... /raises eyebrow ...highly illogical.

Just the first reference that came to mind really.

Tordin, on 29 April 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

Because they want to avoid going people full on ONE weapon Specialist boating, neglecting varity, hurting Generalist builds?

But again, what about the mechs that only have one type of hardpoint by default? Death's Knell, Wolfhounds, Grasshoppers, etc etc.

Mechs like these need their own specific firepower trees because otherwise there's likely going to be problems down the road.

[Summon3r]

Mole, on 28 April 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

Russ and friends seem to have an aversion to common sense. It's the same reason America has Donald Trump as President.

could not have worded that any better, and it made me LMFAO

[vandalhooch]

CadoAzazel, on 29 April 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Nope.

WE DONT GET TO SEE WHICH OF OUR MODULES ARE DEFINATELY FROM BEFORE DEC 3RD SO WE CANNOT SELL THEM BACK AT HALF VALUE COZ WE CANT BE SURE THEY ARE NOT ONES THAT WE WOULD GET FULL REFUND FROM. BECAUSE PGI COULDNT EVEN RELOAD THE PTS WITH THE CORRECT DATE FOR THE LEDGER AND LEFT IT AT FEB 8TH....

I cant remember what modules I bought before / after dec 3rd and I want to sell about half my pre dec 3rd modules back at 50% value so im not sitting on 75+ mechs of GSP, just 30 worth. Cant do that unless they give us PTS with the correct date for the ledger.

There is no way the database knows which exact module was purchased before or after. Example you strip all your modules. Your inventory now lists a total number of each module. You then put one of them back on a mech. The database simply subtracts one from the total number in the inventory. No need to "know" which module it was.

What they have is a snapshot of the database on 12/3 and know what the total number of each module type was at that time. We will be refunded full C-bills for any modules above that old total. If we can be told what the total numbers were on 12/3, we could sell the fraction of that total we want.

[Baba_Yaga]

cazidin, on 28 April 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why is PGI so adamant against a simple skill tree, rather than this maze-like circuit of low level hexes? They've fixed the refund process, mostly. Engine-agility decoupling seems fine now. They even buffed the blast door damage reduction but THIS? Why is THIS still a problem?

They are Canadian, what would you expect, they do not understand the concept of K.I.S.S. !

[Baba Yogi]

Biggest fail of this revamp is that all mechs have the same tree. They should make a different yet smaller tree for each mech. A Direwolf should not have the same access to scout abilities as a light mech has. It should not even be in Dire's tree, the same way some mechs that have all 3 types of weaponry should have weaker but universal weapon type of skills on tree. This way

1. They'll guarantee that something like a timbie wont get his hands on weapon quirks like a mech that actually needs it ie Centurion.
2. It assures mechs will have different flavour.
3. If actually done decently will remove the need for mech quirks completely.

Downside of it will be that it's going to take alot more work. But at least it wont be fail. They already have current mech quirks to give them a baseline of what to strive for.

Edited by Lordhammer, 29 April 2017 - 11:09 PM.

[Summon3r]

Lordhammer, on 29 April 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Biggest fail of this revamp is that all mechs have the same tree. They should make a different yet smaller tree for each mech. A Direwolf should not have the same access to scout abilities as a light mech has.

in pgi world/pgitech why not?

[nehebkau]

This is what is wrong with PGI and why they ignore even the excellent suggestions from the community

[oldradagast]

cazidin, on 28 April 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why is PGI so adamant against a simple skill tree, rather than this maze-like circuit of low level hexes? They've fixed the refund process, mostly. Engine-agility decoupling seems fine now. They even buffed the blast door damage reduction but THIS? Why is THIS still a problem?

Probably because that one intern they hired who coded it all left, and nobody there knows how to fix the mess he or she created.

Seriously, I don't know. Anyone with any real understanding of modern video game design would realize the skill maze is a staggering, tangled, confusing, bloated failure that would have no place in a 2nd rate, cheapo RPG, much less a game like MWO. Hell, once Diablo 2 added respec ability, it's skill system is better than this one, and that game is over 15 years old. The mix of tiny bonuses, dead nodes, gated "must have" skills, and piles of false choices - all to produce maze builds that are mostly identical when all is done - is just embarrassing and laughable.

PGI seems to honestly think that GRIND is the same as CONTENT and CHOICE, and that by making things harder, slower, and more confusing, it will somehow improve the game experience. It won't, and they should know that. The worst part is that the current skill system, despite its simplicity, is at least easy to understand and brand new players can use it just as easily as veterans. Not so with the skill maze. It's just another noob trap, like bad mechs and bad builds, that will punish new players for playing the game, slow down their progress, and widen the gap between them and the veterans.

In short, it's a total failure.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 April 2017 - 02:14 PM.

[oldradagast]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 28 April 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Simple answer is PGI already sunk roughly a year's worth of people's paychecks and PGI's operating costs into making this skill tree and want to have it go live or lose all that money in axing it. Hopefully this is a first iteration and next year or in two years we get a revised one that is more... sane. It needs streamlining which can be done post launch, but, the longer they hold off launching the more resources lost.

Yeah, no. Not happening. Aside from me seriously doubting this game will be in anything but "bare minimum maintenance mode" in a year or two, PGI has a long track record of doing nothing about even simple problems for years. Heck, the current skill system itself is a "placeholder" that was supposed to be upgraded soon after Beta, and the Pinpoint skill has literally done nothing for about 4 years now, and they didn't even find the time to grey it out or replace it with some other simple skill, like +5% to internal structure or something.

Whatever mess gets deployed, expect everyone to be stuck with it for the long haul.

[Davegt27]

Rough crowd

[BlueFlames]

Davegt27, on 30 April 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Rough crowd

When a standup comedian tells **** jokes for half an hour, the audience gets cranky.

[Alik Kerensky]

Good rant against new refund of modules for skill points bull...

[Christophe Ivanov]

The Way I see it, The skill tree is gonna happen....good or bad. We will try our best to make this work as best as possible. The end result will show if it's actually working or not. Only then can we REALLY show the true use of the skill tree. If it's bad, I can guarantee you PGI will see that when folks stop playing and the money starts to slow down. If it works as intended and becomes a positive change, then yay for all. If not....well we all know what happens when things go south.