128 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Is that the general fear? That I.S. is getting screwed over? I can see that and understand that given history. At the same time, if we go into this new system with pre-existing modifiers (quirks in place now), will that not make attaining the balance that we all pine for, further out of reach?

If quirks stay in place going into the new system, I fear that would result in more slap dash fixes. Big cup of IF, but if we could dependably have some sort of check and balance in place for after Skilltree drops, I think that would work out for the best.
Otherwise more of the same.

That's saying, within a few weeks of the skill tree being dropped, PGI reacts accordingly. Strong order, I know. But entertain the idea but for a second, and pretend that we have the fastest reacting dev team on the planet and history of mankind - then would that type of implementation and balancing work?

Edited by JackalBeast, 30 April 2017 - 12:02 PM.

[Bud Crue]

JackalBeast, on 30 April 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Is that the general fear? That I.S. is getting screwed over? I can see that and understand that given history. At the same time, if we go into this new system with pre-existing modifiers (quirks in place now), will that not make attaining the balance that we all pine for, further out of reach?

If quirks stay in place going into the new system, I fear that would result in more slap dash fixes. Big cup of IF, but if we could dependably have some sort of check and balance in place for after Skilltree drops, I think that would work out for the best.
Otherwise more of the same.

That's saying, within a few weeks of the skill tree being dropped, PGI reacts accordingly. Strong order, I know. But entertain the idea but for a second, and pretend that we have the fastest reacting dev team on the planet and history of mankind - then would that type of implementation and balancing work?

But quirks ARE staying in place. Sure, the dart board has lowered some across the board (PPC velocity) but many that are being reduced are totally and seemingly random. Hell, compare this skills tree nerfs to the last PTS's proposal. Both are all over the map with one thing in common: some of the worst mechs are still getting hit. Not just IS but even some clan mechs.

This sort of thing will not even remotely lead to "attaining the balance that we all pine for" but will guarantee, without doubt of any other possibility, that the new system will require "slap dash fixes".

Edited by Bud Crue, 30 April 2017 - 12:07 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

JackalBeast, on 30 April 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Is that the general fear? That I.S. is getting screwed over? I can see that and understand that given history. At the same time, if we go into this new system with pre-existing modifiers (quirks in place now), will that not make attaining the balance that we all pine for, further out of reach?

If quirks stay in place going into the new system, I fear that would result in more slap dash fixes. Big cup of IF, but if we could dependably have some sort of check and balance in place for after Skilltree drops, I think that would work out for the best.
Otherwise more of the same.

That's saying, within a few weeks of the skill tree being dropped, PGI reacts accordingly. Strong order, I know. But entertain the idea but for a second, and pretend that we have the fastest reacting dev team on the planet and history of mankind - then would that type of implementation and balancing work?

Since the EXISTING QUIRKS are a necessary part of even accomplishing the flawed imbalance that currently exists between IS-Clan... then it will throw the balance out even more. The fundamental problem with the dumpster fire Skill Maze is that it makes the game WORSE not better... Great Mechs are even more Great while Decent Mechs are terrible and Bad Mechs are unusable!!!!! The Skill Maze accomplishes the exact opposite of its stated goals, it is what makes anyone who supports it clearly someone who should NEVER be listened to EVER! If you support something that is a comprehension failure under the dubious hope that it will be fixed later, then you need to know that you are dumb.

[Garfuncle]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 April 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

If you support something that is a comprehension failure under the dubious hope that it will be fixed later, then you need to know that you are dumb.

Yeah, well, that's just like...your opinion, man.

[Mcgral18]

JackalBeast, on 30 April 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

Let's try this:
What would make the skill tree better that can realistically be accomplished (to those with knowledge and experience with PGI's abilities) within the time frame and still get it out?
I and many and here are more tired of the whining, and the whining, and the whining more than anything related on here.

#entitlementmuch, #whinesomemorewe'regoingplaces #tryconstructivecriticismbecausetheamountofwhiningyoudointheforumsisoutrightexasperating

#TREE TRAVERSAL


This is CompSci 2006!

[Jackal Noble]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 April 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Since the EXISTING QUIRKS are a necessary part of even accomplishing the flawed imbalance that currently exists between IS-Clan... then it will throw the balance out even more. The fundamental problem with the dumpster fire Skill Maze is that it makes the game WORSE not better... Great Mechs are even more Great while Decent Mechs are terrible and Bad Mechs are unusable!!!!! The Skill Maze accomplishes the exact opposite of its stated goals, it is what makes anyone who supports it clearly someone who should NEVER be listened to EVER! If you support something that is a comprehension failure under the dubious hope that it will be fixed later, then you need to know that you are dumb.

That's not what I said man, and you really need to brush on up those PR skills.
I said so in a hypothetical manner, considering that everything up to this point and until the skilltree actually drops is in effect hypothetical musings and reflection on our part on what we have seen and experienced in the PTS - that is the idea tho right?. The actual Skill tree could have us all riding out in mecha gundams with 3000% extra stuff.

My comment merely insinuated that in the goal for across the board balance that is all so important to FPS's apparently, it would be better to balance all mechs after they have been all put on a normalized system. Pretty dumb eh?

It's also apparently what we've been careening towards with the way quirks have handled on newer mech releases. Also it should be noted, have you not noticed how frequently quirks have been changed on a monthly basis. Balance dude is much more active than what we had before.

Edited by JackalBeast, 30 April 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

JackalBeast, on 30 April 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

A bit over-reaching there ya? Man, the forum meltdowns on the LT...that was the stuff of legends.

Well, it probably won't be LT levels, but having seen forum meltdowns even over the minimap... (or even UI 2.0 when they first introduced it), it'll be pretty loud by those that didn't even partake in the PTS.

We're always in a perpetual beta test... the difference is that the game is more of an alpha of your sensibilities in designs of a game.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 April 2017 - 12:46 PM.

[Baulven]

Tordin, on 29 April 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

C'mon now, with enough whining and rage after the implementation Im sure PGI will listen and adjust..
Didnt they say they knew some mechs would get hit badly but use the ST as a blank slate and adjust values thereafter? If so, yeah I give it a shot and since the new balance overlord, Chris seems to have the head tuned right to the communitys wishes I wish the new change good luck and GOOD RIDDANCE to the old system.

I would like to point out that th3 dumpster fire that was the nerfing of the mini map wasn't even reversed, just made less bad. I would like to point at other attempts to balance, such as the original quirks on the KDK3 when people say that they are sure that PGI will adjust. I mean, the KDK3 only kept it's ridiculous quirks icing on top of the strongest weapon hard point cake for what? Five months?

[Jackal Noble]

Baulven, on 30 April 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

I would like to point out that th3 dumpster fire that was the nerfing of the mini map wasn't even reversed, just made less bad. I would like to point at other attempts to balance, such as the original quirks on the KDK3 when people say that they are sure that PGI will adjust. I mean, the KDK3 only kept it's ridiculous quirks icing on top of the strongest weapon hard point cake for what? Five months?

Ya....

[Deathlike]

Baulven, on 30 April 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

I would like to point out that th3 dumpster fire that was the nerfing of the mini map wasn't even reversed, just made less bad. I would like to point at other attempts to balance, such as the original quirks on the KDK3 when people say that they are sure that PGI will adjust. I mean, the KDK3 only kept it's ridiculous quirks icing on top of the strongest weapon hard point cake for what? Five months?

The thing is, I believe those are attempts selling more mechpacks (allow them to be OP initially to drive sales), except that always comes with backlash (people telling PGI they need those buffs or they need to stop removing quirks).

It's more of a lose-lose situation when you put quirks on something that didn't need them in the first place (Hello Arctic Cheetah). If they were balance from the beginning (as that's some balance overlord's job), you wouldn't need to have this conversation.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 April 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[Baulven]

Deathlike, on 30 April 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The thing is, I believe those are attempts selling more mechpacks (allow them to be OP initially to drive sales), except that always comes with backlash (people telling PGI they need those buffs or they need to stop removing quirks).

It's more of a lose-lose situation when you put quirks on something that didn't need them in the first place (Hello Arctic Cheetah). If they were balance from the beginning (as that's some balance overlord's job), you wouldn't need to have this conversation.

That's just it with the new skill tree the KDK3 gets to have quirks again, while IS quirks are reduced and need to be ground back to current levels. This is not a wise choice.

If PGI really wants to push this tree they need to make at least tiered bonuses (1/2, 3/4, 1 at a minimum) so that underperformers can be be placed in higher bonus brackets. It is quite likely there will need to be more than three brackets, but even that would do a lot to fix some of the issues that will be inbound when this starts. Granted that only addresses a single problem of the collective issues the skill tree has.

I do want a new skill tree, but I honestly think it would be ready for May if they had continued to run the PTS since PTS 1 and addressed key concerns from the get go. The company decided that it was better to stick fingers in their ears and yell really loud.

Deathlike, on 30 April 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The thing is, I believe those are attempts selling more mechpacks (allow them to be OP initially to drive sales), except that always comes with backlash (people telling PGI they need those buffs or they need to stop removing quirks).

It's more of a lose-lose situation when you put quirks on something that didn't need them in the first place (Hello Arctic Cheetah). If they were balance from the beginning (as that's some balance overlord's job), you wouldn't need to have this conversation.

Ideally they would but there will always be a little disparity due to mech geometry and balance is difficult initially to get right. That being said it's primarily math, so it should be close after years of work but I don't see that as what we currently have.

[Deathlike]

Baulven, on 30 April 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

I do want a new skill tree, but I honestly think it would be ready for May if they had continued to run the PTS since PTS 1 and addressed key concerns from the get go. The company decided that it was better to stick fingers in their ears and yell really loud.

Sounds about right.

Quote

Ideally they would but there will always be a little disparity due to mech geometry and balance is difficult initially to get right. That being said it's primarily math, so it should be close after years of work but I don't see that as what we currently have.

Besides math not being PGI's forte, there's noone wanting to really check over the work (cause math) outside of the players... so it is what it is.

[C E Dwyer]

I do think complain about it is pointless.

It's blowing wind against the storm, it's arriving like it or not.

Once it's in people will either find out it's o.k after all, hate it and stay hate it and leave.

What is pointless is complaining about it, if you have no intention of making one of the above choices, once it's live

[oldradagast]

Cathy, on 30 April 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

I do think complain about it is pointless.

It's blowing wind against the storm, it's arriving like it or not.

Once it's in people will either find out it's o.k after all, hate it and stay hate it and leave.

What is pointless is complaining about it, if you have no intention of making one of the above choices, once it's live

There is the biggest choice to consider: Continue to play the game now and then, but never spend another dime on it.

I suspect that one is going to happen far more than people outright quitting and never returning, or mindlessly buying into PGI's slop and continuing to throw large sums of money at them as a reward for their arrogance and laughable mediocrity.

The problem is, while player numbers may stay the same and "prove that the skill maze was a success?!," the real story is in the potential earning loss now that PGI has blown whatever remaining goodwill they had with many players. Players continuing to play for free doesn't pay PGI's bills; maybe if they actually listened to the players and the facts they presented, this would not be an upcoming risk to their business.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 April 2017 - 02:02 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 April 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

Kindly show me where PGI has attempted to fix the skill tree before this time. I'll wait.

I think that's kinda the point. 5 years with placeholder skill treel. There were non functional nodes on it lol

[oldradagast]

Ghogiel, on 30 April 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

I think that's kinda the point. 5 years with placeholder skill treel. There were non functional nodes on it lol

Exactly. If PGI couldn't come up with ANYTHING to do about Pinpoint in FIVE friggin years - not even just grey it out and assume it's already obtained, or replace it with a simple bonus to armor or structure - then there is zero chance they have the will or ability to rebalance the game after unleashing this monstrosity since that would involve a lot more work, actual understanding of game balance, listening to facts vs. white knights, etc.

[Alteran]

Ghogiel, on 30 April 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

I think that's kinda the point. 5 years with placeholder skill treel. There were non functional nodes on it lol

IF they were non-functional, why would PGI bother to spread those nodes completely throughout their new system? Why not just give all Mechs the same basic movement system and leave it at that? Call it a placeholder system, but at least all Mechs had the same placeholder systems. Really all they had to do was get rid of the required 3 Mech mechanic.

This system will just create alternative Meta-Skil/Mech/Quirk and PGI will be in for another round of Nerf the skill tree, quirk and chassis system.

It will do nothing more than what they've already created... a complete and utter mess.

Get rid of it all, no skills, no modules and no quirks. Give each mech their basic movement and weapon systems; let the skill of the pilot truly rule the field of battle.

Edited by Alteran, 30 April 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Mystere]

JackalBeast, on 30 April 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

Let's try this:
What would make the skill tree better that can realistically be accomplished (to those with knowledge and experience with PGI's abilities) within the time frame and still get it out?
I and many and here are more tired of the whining, and the whining, and the whining more than anything related on here.

#entitlementmuch, #whinesomemorewe'regoingplaces #tryconstructivecriticismbecausetheamountofwhiningyoudointheforumsisoutrightexasperating

What can PGI realistically do within 1 month? That's easy: dump the entire concept of a skill tree.

[Insanity09]

I would rather have a further delay that results in a product able to meet all the stated goals than deal with the current flaws for any length of time.

Simple. (not an inherently confusing UI)
Meaningful. (bonuses for each node that actually feel useful, even if that means fewer nodes overall)
Easy to understand (choices and trade-offs that are clear)
Good scaling (allows mechs that are just starting to ramp up at a decent rate so they get more competitive, more quickly, rather than languishing in skill-less purgatory)
No useless skills required. (self explanatory)
For PGI, some gating (easy enough to do, but in a non-aggravating way, lots of suggestions in the forums on how to make that happen)

I'm sure I missed a few goals, but it seems like that would cover many of the basic needs.

[Kubernetes]

Mystere, on 30 April 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

What can PGI realistically do within 1 month? That's easy: dump the entire concept of a skill tree.

Or at least postpone it until it actually makes sense. Or simply adopt So1ahma's suggested tree.

I don't get it, is there some world-shattering event that's about to happen and PGI must race to release the skill tree before it drops? We've gone years with a crippled skill tree, and suddenly it's NOW NOW NOW GOTTADOITNOW? The current iteration of the tree sucks. I'm honestly dreading it because I'll probably quit playing. I've got a huge list of games I've put off playing in favor of MWO, and those titles are looking more and more appealing the closer we get to SkillTreemageddon.