36 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

I've recently made a number of posts on Skill Tree 2. They addressed specific questions and issues raised by the Skill Tree as presented on PTS2. However feedback both in and out of the public forum apparently feels I am being a "whiney entitled troll" for posting or commenting factually on these issues.

It should be obvious from my post history that I try to find ways to make MWO/PGI more profitable and sustainable while also making players happier (because the two go together). Unfortunately sometimes people get cranky enough that the obvious isn't so obvious anymore.

That said, an awful lot of posts do offer nothing beyond 'I want the skill tree so shut up you guys!" and "I hate the skill tree it is bad bad bad". Even long-time posters whom I normally respect have done this for their past 20-30 posts.

The 'PTS2 Offline' post (https://mwomercs.com...s-2-now-offline) pretty much guarantees that Skill Tree 2 will go live in a month or so in roughly its present form. The arguing is pointless since PGI doesn't pay much attention to these forums anyway.

The only thing we can accomplish in forum now is to help other players deal with, adapt to, and estimate the impact that Skill Tree 2 will have on our current mech setups.

I experimented on duplicating the effects of the current Basic and Elite mech skills in Skill Tree 2. https://mwomercs.com...ter-comparison/ This takes 61 nodes and gives you a little more of some, less of others. This is not a 'recommended' node set, just a comparison to get a feel.

I raised some specific module/ability questions in https://mwomercs.com...hese-skills-do/. Once pointed in the right direction by ForceUser, I answered most of those questions and came up with a Nerf/Buff/Unchanged list for some common mech functions.

Cazidin started a useful thread called https://mwomercs.com...tree-20-builds/ in which he asks for specific sample builds. For myself I came up with a baseline 71 node build which gives the most mobility, armor, heat management, sensors, and 1 consumable slot that I could get for the least nodes used. That leaves 20 nodes to customize your mech for its intended role. (Of course not every mech will want baseline armor or mobility boosts, but it's a decent starting point)

PTS 2 is down but you can still experiment and post builds using this link: https://kitlaan.gitlab.io/mwoskill/

I noticed that hardly any of the really loud frequent pro/con posters have actually posted any hard, useable data or examples in quite a while. Like what your favorite mech will actually gain/lose after you set it up in ST2. Or what you plan to do with an LRM mech now that it has new options. Or how a laser vomit build will be affected by the global heat increase. If you feel that Skill Tree 2 totally breaks something, please give an example with numbers. Not so PGI will change things (that's unlikely), but so other players can begin preparing to adapt to the coming change.

So, less loud opinion, more useful information please. Let's work together as players and help each other prepare for 'the new normal' we'll be dealing with in a month or two.

Edited by MadBadger, 30 April 2017 - 05:45 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Very well compiled, good practical suggestions.
That's what we actualy need here.
Well done thank you...._{(now lets rage on)}

Edit: on a side note....even if there are changes that are actually taking away something frome some builds and even if there are changes that seem to worsen some things (well a general downfall energy mechs would be actually a nice change in my eyes) I do think that this game has reached a point where next to EVERY change is good as long as there is something to do again.

Edited by The Basilisk, 30 April 2017 - 06:00 AM.

[oldradagast]

The Basilisk, on 30 April 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

Edit: on a side note....even if there are changes that are actually taking away something frome some builds and even if there are changes that seem to worsen some things (well a general downfall energy mechs would be actually a nice change in my eyes) I do think that this game has reached a point where next to EVERY change is good as long as there is something to do again.

The problem is that the "something to do" will be:
- Shelve all your IS mechs, now stripped of quirks, and let them rust in your garage
- Buy a handulf of Clan meta-mechs that do not need quirks to be devastating. Look to current quirk-free mechs that are still competitive to see what will dominate the future of the game
- Try to decide between wading through the skill maze now, or waiting a few months after PGI probably shuffles everything around because of New Tech - and fails to offer everyone a free respec on all their mechs.

Stuff to do, sure, but I don't see anything FUN on that list.

[Scyther]

Please provide an example of an IS mech that you currently play, what quirks it will lose, what you might pick for it in the new skill tree, and give a rough idea how you think those changes will affect what you can do in that mech.

Please provide an example of a Clan meta-mech that does not need quirks, what the global heat/engine changes might do to it, what skill tree build you might pick for it and how you think that may make that mech even more competitive/OP.

Those examples would actually be helpful and useful. Further opinion based complaints won't be.

Note: the Skill Tree lab link https://kitlaan.gitlab.io/mwoskill/ provides a handy text summary of all the nodes selected. It might be easier to just list that when providing comparisons/examples.

Example:

[Bud Crue]

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

The problem is that the "something to do" will be:
- Shelve all your IS mechs, now stripped of quirks, and let them rust in your garage
- Buy a handulf of Clan meta-mechs that do not need quirks to be devastating. Look to current quirk-free mechs that are still competitive to see what will dominate the future of the game
- Try to decide between wading through the skill maze now, or waiting a few months after PGI probably shuffles everything around because of New Tech - and fails to offer everyone a free respec on all their mechs.

Stuff to do, sure, but I don't see anything FUN on that list.

In the spirit of being productive:

So if the skills tree refund scheme holds true when we go live, is there any clan heroes worth buying? I'm going to have about 4000 MC after refund and since there is no reason to waste it on an IS mech, I was thinking of a Viper. Is there any other MC only mech worth buying in that price range even? I've never played clan mechs so I don't really even know what to do here.

As far as the rest I am using my c-bill refunds to buy a Night Gyr and a Hunchback IIc. Not sure if I will buy a Kodiak-3 or something else for an assault (but I probably will).

Edited by Bud Crue, 30 April 2017 - 06:27 AM.

[Appogee]

So many pearls cast before swine, when the swineherders don't even come to this sty.

That'll do pig, that'll do.

Edited by Appogee, 30 April 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[oldradagast]

MadBadger, on 30 April 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

Please provide an example of an IS mech that you currently play, what quirks it will lose, what you might pick for it in the new skill tree, and give a rough idea how you think those changes will affect what you can do in that mech.

Honestly, you can figure this one out on your own. and don't need to play with the skill maze to see the problems.

Take a look at an Atlas. They are going to lose most, if not all, of their substantial quirks. Now, pit it against a KDK-3, a mech that has no quirks and doesn't need them to be top-tier even today.

Tell me with a straight face how the Atlas will even be remotely useful in the future without its massive quirks against a KDK-3, which doesn't even need quirks to be deadly?

It won't be, and no amount of skill maze grinding is going to change that because at any given point in the skill maze, without its quirks, the Atlas will be horrifically inferior to the KDK-3 because both of them can be upgraded through the skill maze at about the same level and rate. And this comparison will be repeated a hundred times over with every mech in the game that has large quirks vs. mechs that don't need quirks to already be deadly: Kodiaks of all sorts, Night Gyrs, etc.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 April 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

Honestly, you can figure this one out on your own. and don't need to play with the skill maze to see the problems.

Take a look at an Atlas. They are going to lose most, if not all, of their substantial quirks. Now, pit it against a KDK-3, a mech that has no quirks and doesn't need them to be top-tier even today.

You mean the Atlas that isn't losing a single Armour or Structure Quirk when the skill tree drops? That Atlas?

I guess you don't even need to read patch notes or Quirk lists to know everything about them, eh?

[oldradagast]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 April 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

You mean the Atlas that isn't losing a single Armour or Structure Quirk when the skill tree drops? That Atlas?

I guess you don't even need to read patch notes or Quirk lists to know everything about them, eh?

Post the link to where PGI states what mechs will keep which quirks after the skill maze goes live.

As for the Atlas, perhaps a poor example. Still, any mech that loses a lot of quirks: mobility, firepower, defensive, etc, which needed them to be viable will be hosed in this new system. Maybe they are just leaving defensive ones as is. OK, fine - that's better than nothing, but mechs that needed a huge mix of defense, offense, and mobility to survive will be hosed in the new system if even 1 or 2 out of 3 of those quirk categories are stripped away.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 April 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[SaintLucifer]

You mean this https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf that was posted on the PTS 2 post? As you can see the AS7 will not lose any defensive quirk, just some minor weapon ones, that are becoming skills.

Edited by SaintLucifer, 30 April 2017 - 07:12 AM.

[Ted Wayz]

Fact not opinion: I have over 300 mechs and do not want to spend a second to respec a single one.

Fact not opinion: Easily in the top 1% of spenders and the current skill tree going live will have an effect on my spending.

Am I doing it right?

Edited by Ted Wayz, 30 April 2017 - 07:46 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

Post the link to where PGI states what mechs will keep which quirks after the skill maze goes live.

OMG SO HARD TO FIND!!

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

As for the Atlas, perhaps a poor example. Still, any mech that loses a lot of quirks: mobility, firepower, defensive, etc, which needed them to be viable will be hosed in this new system. Maybe they are just leaving defensive ones as is. OK, fine - that's better than nothing, but mechs that needed a huge mix of defense, offense, and mobility to survive will be hosed in the new system if even 1 or 2 out of 3 of those quirk categories are stripped away.

Agreed, some 'mechs (mostly IS) get royally screwed by the Quirk changes. That's why I've been mostly sticking to Clan 'mechs for the last few months.

[Scyther]

So I decided to get started with an example. I don't play most of my mechs, and what I do play, is mostly because I bought a new mech for whatever reason (often just to throw some $$ PGI's way to let them know I think they've done something right) and need to level it.

Bought the WarHammer pack a while back, liked the BW, play it from time to time. Checked the quirk changes on this link: https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf

For those who may have missed it, that comes from the informative PTS post: https://mwomercs.com...-test-session-2

Looks like my Black Widow will lose 10% Ballistic Velocity quirk and its 30% PPC Velocity will be trimmed down to 10%. The Energy Heat, Energy Range, and Structure bonuses all stay the same. (Edit: I checked wrong Quirk list earlier, latest says BW will lose its 10% Accel/Decel/Torso Turn boost as well)

When I got this mech I stuck (or kept) an XL320 on it, 8 DHS, 2 torso PPCs and 2 arm Large Lasers. PPC Velocity loss affects me a little, Ballistic not at all. I normally load LL Range +10% module, PPC Range +10%, and Radar Dep. I have the extra module slot unlocked but rarely remember to put anything in it. If I remember to it would usually be Advanced Zoom or Seismic. (I don't pretend it's a good build just what was handy at the time, plus I need to practice with PPCs.)

I will take my 71-node 'baseline' build and toss in 20 nodes of FirePower. 5 x Range, 7 x Laser Duration, 3 x Cooldown, 5 x HeatGen. Totals will be:



What I lose:
7% of my Cool Run, 14% Heat Containment, 2.3% of my Fast Fire cooldown, 12% of Quick Ignition, 40% of my RadarDep, 2.5% off my Range, 1 consumable slot.

What I Gain:
10% more Anchor Turn and Kinetic Burst, 5% more Hard Brake, 13.6% more Armor, 9.6% more Structure, 7% more Torso Speed and 10% Torso Pitch (useful for the torso PPCs), +10 seconds / +20% range to my UAV. I regain -5% Heat Generation for a net loss of 2% factoring in my Cool Run. Various other Shock Absorb, Improved Gyros etc, small stuff but still gains.

Overall that looks like a net plus to me. Of course that won't be the case on every mech and build, but it's a far cry from "Shelve all your IS mechs, now stripped of quirks, and let them rust in your garage".

By the by, my Atlases, King Crabs, and Stalkers aren't getting 'stripped of quirks' either, although they do lose a bit here and there.

See, that's the difference between a fact based example, and a hyperbole based opinion. One we can use, the other not so much.

Edited by MadBadger, 30 April 2017 - 09:34 AM.

[Scyther]

@Ted Wayz: (sorry, the Quote button never works for me)

Sadly, no, you're not doing it right. No matter how many times you post "I am a big spender and I will stop" it won't change the Skill Tree implementation. It won't fix your mechs, it won't provide useful information to anyone, and it won't give anyone ideas on what to test or what specific useful information to relay to PGI (presumably via Twitter or some other non-forum medium) to show that something is either working or broken.

It doesn't help yourself or any other player because PGI frankly won't pay any attention to it. I respect your support of the game, I respect your stating that you are voting with your dollars - in the end that is the only real input PGI will pay attention to.

I'm just saying that type of forum post doesn't really help anyone, but other kinds might be more useful.

[Ted Wayz]

MadBadger, on 30 April 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

@Ted Wayz: (sorry, the Quote button never works for me)

Sadly, no, you're not doing it right. No matter how many times you post "I am a big spender and I will stop" it won't change the Skill Tree implementation. It won't fix your mechs, it won't provide useful information to anyone, and it won't give anyone ideas on what to test or what specific useful information to relay to PGI (presumably via Twitter or some other non-forum medium) to show that something is either working or broken.

It doesn't help yourself or any other player because PGI frankly won't pay any attention to it. I respect your support of the game, I respect your stating that you are voting with your dollars - in the end that is the only real input PGI will pay attention to.

I'm just saying that type of forum post doesn't really help anyone, but other kinds might be more useful.

Oh, I see. You are the special snowflake and this is the thread PGI will read.

Let me know how that works out for you. Meanwhile I will communicate my way.

[Queen of England]

Ted Wayz, on 30 April 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

Oh, I see. You are the special snowflake and this is the thread PGI will read.

Let me know how that works out for you. Meanwhile I will communicate my way.

I don't think he's saying that - his point is this is happening, we can't stop it, so we need to plan to deal with it.

We're treating the skill tree like a natural disaster and helping each other with boarding up windows and putting up sandbags.

In that spirit, something like this looks like a good "generic" skill tree.



I've purchased all the agility and survival (minus all the trash nodes that don't gate anything) and all the sensors needed to get full seismic sensors and radar derp.

If PGI would just let us save skill templates I'd just apply this to all my 'mechs and save about 8000 clicks (depending on how many clicks saving a template costs).

Edited by Queen of England, 30 April 2017 - 08:26 AM.

[DAYLEET]

SaintLucifer, on 30 April 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

You mean this https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf that was posted on the PTS 2 post? As you can see the AS7 will not lose any defensive quirk, just some minor weapon ones, that are becoming skills.

According to the notes the AS7 lose 1500% of 15 turn rate! At minus 225 turn angle, playing it will be an esoteric experience no drugs can beat.

Edited by DAYLEET, 30 April 2017 - 08:44 AM.

[Dogstar]

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

The problem is that the "something to do" will be:

You could always man up/grow a pair/some other macho saying and stick with the IS mechs regardless!?!?!?

I know they're at a disadvantage but I still prefer them to the clans B52-faced chicken legged rejects from a kit-bashing convention

Games played on my IS account - 1500+
Games played on my clan account - 30ish

[Scyther]

@Queen of England:

Good template, Q! Plus, I am astonished that as many posts as I have read saying "I refuse to click 26,792 times to respec my mechs!", this is the first time I have seen 'save and load a template' mentioned. Preferably named templates so we can set up more than one.

I'm even more astonished that I didn't think of it myself, but hey, that's why you're Queen and I'm just a peasant! Hail Brittania!

(PS: I'm sure it's been mentioned before, I just haven't seen it)

Edited by MadBadger, 30 April 2017 - 09:13 AM.

[oldradagast]

SaintLucifer, on 30 April 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

As you can see the AS7 will not lose any defensive quirk, just some minor weapon ones, that are becoming skills.

So, what you're saying is that the Atlas WILL be losing some of its quirks that it needs to remain even "sort of" competitive with the Kodiak's, which have few, if any, quirks at all.

See? That is exactly the type of crap I'm talking about - the Atlas already is trash compared to the Kodiak, So, let's make it weaker in the baseline stats and then pretend that "both mechs can take skills" somehow balances it out. It doesn't, any more than "both mechs can take modules" balances out the current situation.

You want specific examples?

- Take a look at any most of the lights. What the hell use is a Locust going to be with it's 80% acceleration and deceleration quirks reduced to ZERO? One could argue they might be a bit too mobile now, but come on!

- Mediums are in a similar boat. Nice seeing my Hunchbacks will drive like a truck now with a 30% to 35% reduction in Yaw and Turn Rate. Because having a sluggish brawling mech is totally viable in MWO... not...

- Heck, there's my Awesome 8Q, having it's PPC speed buff dropped from 50% to a crappy 20%. Might as well put Large Pulse Lasers on it. Oh, and its gets it's mobility similarly nerfed into the dirt like the Hunchback. Because everyone knows Awesomes are top-tier meta mechs and badly need to be nerfed so they move like a barn stuck in mud.

Yes, I can "take skills" to fix this, but so can the top-tier Clan mechs that don't need any quirks today to remain competitive. That's the point; even if you can muddle through the skill maze to get your IS mech back to "sort of" what it had before, the Clan mech, which had no quirks before, is ALSO getting a buff from the skill maze, and will thus end up on top at the end again anyway.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 April 2017 - 09:29 AM.