62 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

Pr8Dator2, on 01 May 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

... by the skill tree... It seems like every IS mech is transforming into assault tanks!



Also with the new RACs and lighter engines etc... it makes sense for IS quirks to be removed or at least lessened as technology closes the gap between the two factions. In fact, as technology gap closes in, the drop deck difference between clan and IS should also even out.

IS mechs are getting murdered by the skill tree. There is nothing in the skill tree that IS can get that clan doesn't. They can get structure and armor quirks too, only that's something they've never had before. IS had to be structure quirked to keep them relevant. Now, losing the majority of their offensive quirks, IS weapons will once again be a joke. It was all pointless. The good news is, I'll never have to buy a new IS mech pack again.

[Ryllen Kriel]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

I have adapted. I run meta Clan mechs in SQ and GQ now. Better than other alternatives.

And god tier defensive quirks are mostly on **** tier IS mechs, which means they will still be overall mediocre.

I do not think he gets the fact that all the defensive quirks in the world will never compensate for the offensive shortcomings of comparatively bad weapon slot placement, poor scaling of certain chassis or weak hitboxes. The IS has a vast pool of mediocre mechs based upon these values. A good pilot can only do well in a mediocre mech occasionally depending on skill, luck and positioning. A mediocre pilot in a good mech performs more consistently all the time. Good pilots in good mechs...you get the picture.

Clan mechs as a whole have had better weapon placement, omnitech for weapon selection and better ranged weapons on their mechs. Even with better clan-like tech for weapons and engines for IS pilots, Clan weapon placement and hitboxes are a far superior advantage compared to a few extra armour buffs any day of the week. We don't even know what defensive quirks shall remain, if any. Meanwhile weapon location and omnitech groupings for Clan have no reason to change.

Sadly the issue will always come back to the same thing despite all the skill trees or defensive quirks. PGI seems unable to balance the game in the way it was intended; Clanners in superior mechs versus IS with superior numbers. The new tech helps IS mechs a little but it won't close the gap, it won't compensate for superior weapon mounts, omnitech and hitboxes. The new skill system buffs all mechs while removing the majority of current IS offensive quirks. I'll take bonuses to offensive capability over defensive anytime. New weapon tech only fixes a few issues, this game will continue to be far from balanced.

[Khobai]

Quote

So you're saying a Kodiak that has to suffer the indignity of 2.5 second fire cycles on UAC/10s won't be viable? That's ******** and you know it.
It will still be viable, in fact it will be exactly where it is now compared to non quirked ballistics boats and way ahead of the ones that currently are quirked.

CUAC10 is basically going from a 2.0 cooldown to a 2.5 cooldown. thats a pretty massive dps reduction. But also armor/structure is being increased, so weapons like the CUAC10 that fire in bursts and spread damage around are going to be significantly weaker. So yeah CUAC10 is getting hit with like a 30% nerf.

dps weapons are done if this skill tree goes live

massive cooldown skill removal combined with armor/structure quirks means PPFLD weapons like gauss/ppc will be even more king than they were before.

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2017 - 07:04 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

Sorry but only IS mechs with pretty low mounted weapons get this heavy armor buffs. How often do u see Highlanders, Atlas, Vindicaters and even Bushwackers? And even a Kodiak can have like 140 (I think it was) ct front armor on PTS. Timber Wolf can run with 100 ct front armor easily on PTS and with the internal bonusses it can take 3 dual gauss+dual ppcs shots into ct and it's still alive.

Dogstar, on 01 May 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

Well this thread wins today's prize for saltiest crocodile tears from the clan warriors for justice.

Don't throw all Clan players into the same pot, thanks.

I hate this more than anything else.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 01 May 2017 - 07:08 AM.

[R Valentine]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

dps weapons are done if this skill tree goes live

massive cooldown skill removal combined with armor/structure quirks means PPFLD weapons like gauss/ppc will be even more king than they were before.

Good thing I bought a Night Gyr and stocked it up on XP this weekend. "Adapt or die". I did. I bought a Night Gyr, Kodiak, MAD IIC, and HBKIIC all in one go. The game has never been so easy.

[CDLord HHGD]

HAX!
https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

[Humpday]

Kiran Yagami, on 01 May 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Good thing I bought a Night Gyr and stocked it up on XP this weekend. "Adapt or die". I did. I bought a Night Gyr, Kodiak, MAD IIC, and HBKIIC all in one go. The game has never been so easy.

I did that same thing...that thing is OP as fack! No wonder people have such high k/d in them, they are so tanky that you simply go match after match picking up 1-5 kills without a death of your own. And unlikc the KDK-3 you dont' get instantly targeted.

[Snowbluff]

Kudos to Snuggles with that urbie fight. I would have shot the retreating urbie in the crotch though, because that's back armor.

[Mister Blastman]

Those armor buffs are nuts. They should open up PTS so we can test more.

[Erronius]

Man, I can't wait for all the tears when PGI inevitably has to nerf certain base quirks because they're OP when combined with the ST. Even if it's something minor, people are going to trip over themselves to complain about it as loudly as possible on the forums.

I can't really fault PGI holding off on tweaking too many of the remaining quirks before the ST hits. I just hope that they're already lining up possible tweak/balance scenarios now, so that post-ST release balancing doesn't take a year or more. Because it's going to be pretty grating having to trudge through posts complaining about PGI taking forever to address balance after the ST hits (whether those complaints are valid or not, because TBH the nonstop complaining does get old)

[Herodes]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

IS quirks armor/structure quirks are way better than what Clans get. period.

The King Crab would like to have a word with you.

El Bandito, on 01 May 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

I have adapted. I run meta Clan mechs in SQ and GQ now. Better than other alternatives.

And god tier defensive quirks are mostly on **** tier IS mechs, which means they will still be overall mediocre.

I can understand. But I cannot follow. Never Clan. Ever.

[Druarc]

Zergling, on 01 May 2017 - 01:16 AM, said:

Mist Lynx: +10 LT/RT structure, +24 LA/RA armor, +12 LL/RL structure
Kit Fox: +10 LT/RT structure, +20 LA/RA armor, +14 LL/RL structure
Adder: +12 LT/RT structure, +6 LA/RA structure, +16 LL/RL structure
Ice Ferret: +11 RT/LT structure, +14 LA/RA structure, +11 LL/RL structure
Mad Dog: +7 to +21 LT/RT structure
Linebacker: +11 CT armor, +11 LT/RT armor, +8 LA/RA armor, +15 LL/RL structure
Summoner: +11 CT structure, +11 LT/RT structure, +11 LA/RA structure, +15 LL/RL structure
Orion IIC: +12 CT armor, +12 LT/RT armor, +6 LA/RA armor, +8 LL/RL armor
Gargoyle: +12 CT structure, +17 LT/RT structure, +26 LA/RA armor, +8 LL/RL structure
Warhawk: +11 CT structure, +18 LT/RT structure, +21 LA/RA structure, +9 LL/RL structure
Highlander IIC: +15 CT structure, +10 LT/RT structure, +8 LA/RA armor, +10 LL/RL structure
Supernova: +10 CT structure, +10 LT/RT structure, +8 LA/RA armor, +10 LL/RL structure
KDK-2, KDK-4, Spirit Bear: +15 CT structure, +5 LT/RT structure, +10 LA/RA structure, +10 LL/RL structure

Mad Dog is arguable, as it has to sacrifice all torso missile hardpoints to gain +21 LT/RT, but that will be more viable in August when it gains another 3E energy arm, allowing it to boat 3 energy weapons in each arm (eg, cookie cutter clan laser vomit of 2x Large Pulse + 4x ER Medium).




Only a handful of mechs like the Atlas get armor/structure quirks anywhere near that strong.

The vast majority of IS mechs have quirks comparable or worse to those listed above for Clan mechs.





Because I prefer a balanced game. Why? Because such a balanced game has far greater variety, reducing boredom.


Aside from that, the claim that IS benefits more from the survival tree really isn't true.

Eg, compare the AS7-D Atlas to the Dire Wolf, both 100 ton mechs.
Dire Wolf has 62 CT structure and 124 CT armor, for 186 total CT hit points.
Atlas has 62 CT structure and 155 CT armor, for 217 total CT hit points.

As such, the Atlas -D has 31 hitpoints more than the Dire Wolf, or 16.67% advantage.

If both mechs max out the armor/structure skill nodes in the Survival Tree, they both gain +25% structure and +10% armor.

Dire Wolf goes from 62 CT structure to 77.5, and 124 CT armor to 136.4, for a total of 213.9 hit points, a 15% gain.
Atlas goes from 62 CT structure to 77.5, and from 155 CT armor to 170.5, for a total of 248 hit points, a 14.29% gain.

As a result, the Atlas -D has 34.1 more hit points than the Dire Wolf, or 15.94% advantage. It's percentage advantage in CT hit points has actually gone down.

Except it's actual advantage goes up by 3.1 damage points.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

Its because quirks also get multiplied by the armor/structure skill nodes.

So if you have a +31 CT structure quirk, and +25% structure from skill nodes, that +31 quirk just became a +39 quirk



IS get access to more armor/structure quirks than Clans though. And like I said above those quirks get further multiplied by the skill tree.

So IS mechs with armor/structure quirks will be considerably tankier than Clan mechs.

Quirks for free are nice.

Giving up 15% laser burn duration or 8% weapon cooldown or 5% speed tweak to get 8 pts of armor is stupid. So you shrugged off 1 1/2 extra ML hits total on the match. 8% weapon cooldown is ~40 more points of damage on an average match plus getting to shoot first on the 2nd trade in a brawl, often eliminating return fire completely. Or being into position first.

Survival buffs are not worth it.

[Zergling]

Druarc, on 01 May 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

Except it's actual advantage goes up by 3.1 damage points.

Percentage is what matters.

Eg, if the Dire Wolf has 16.67% more DPS output (it doesn't, just assume they do for this example) compared to the Atlas having 16.67% more hit points, then in theory they'd kill each other in the same time.
If the Atlas is reduced to 15.94% more hit points, while the Dire Wolf retains its 16.67% higher DPS output, then the Dire Wolf can kill the Atlas faster than the Atlas can kill the Dire Wolf.

As a result, that is a nerf to the Atlas.


Note that the Atlas D is also receiving offensive quirk nerfs: it is losing 5% AC20 cooldown, 5% ballistic velocity and 5% energy cooldown.
The Dire Wolf isn't receiving any offensive quirk nerfs (because it doesn't have any to lose), so not only is the Atlas relative durability versus the Dire Wolf, it is also losing in relative firepower.

Edited by Zergling, 01 May 2017 - 04:10 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Zergling, on 01 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Percentage is what matters.

Eg, if the Dire Wolf has 16.67% more DPS output (it doesn't, just assume they do for this example) compared to the Atlas having 16.67% more hit points, then in theory they'd kill each other in the same time.
If the Atlas is reduced to 15.94% more hit points, while the Dire Wolf retains its 16.67% higher DPS output, then the Dire Wolf can kill the Atlas faster than the Atlas can kill the Dire Wolf.

As a result, that is a nerf to the Atlas.


Note that the Atlas D is also receiving offensive quirk nerfs: it is losing 5% AC20 cooldown, 5% ballistic velocity and 5% energy cooldown.
The Dire Wolf isn't receiving any offensive quirk nerfs (because it doesn't have any to lose), so not only is the Atlas relative durability versus the Dire Wolf, it is also losing in relative firepower.

Except the 16.67% armor bonus is only useful one time. 16.67% bonus is useful every time you shoot and every mech you shoot.

Which is better - a 16.67% raise to your weekly income or a 16.67% bonus to one weeks income, one time in your life?

[Druarc]

Zergling, on 01 May 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Percentage is what matters.

Eg, if the Dire Wolf has 16.67% more DPS output (it doesn't, just assume they do for this example) compared to the Atlas having 16.67% more hit points, then in theory they'd kill each other in the same time.
If the Atlas is reduced to 15.94% more hit points, while the Dire Wolf retains its 16.67% higher DPS output, then the Dire Wolf can kill the Atlas faster than the Atlas can kill the Dire Wolf.

As a result, that is a nerf to the Atlas.


Note that the Atlas D is also receiving offensive quirk nerfs: it is losing 5% AC20 cooldown, 5% ballistic velocity and 5% energy cooldown.
The Dire Wolf isn't receiving any offensive quirk nerfs (because it doesn't have any to lose), so not only is the Atlas relative durability versus the Dire Wolf, it is also losing in relative firepower.

The problem with % is they can hide the truth. There was an old study that said meat eaters have 50% higher chance of death from heart conditions. Over a study of 200 people 1/2 of each. 4 vegetarians died and 6 meat eaters from heart conditions so yup they didn't lie but as a meat eat I felt better when I read the full study at not the headlines.

Plus as a light player I'll just core both from behind

[Pixel Hunter]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2017 - 01:36 AM, said:

Not even close. CXL saves tonnage so well so I can kill better.

this is how I feel when I read all the quirks being lost on the IS side and Clanners and devs trying to rationalize with the "new tech" carrot

[Zergling]

Druarc, on 01 May 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

The problem with % is they can hide the truth. There was an old study that said meat eaters have 50% higher chance of death from heart conditions. Over a study of 200 people 1/2 of each. 4 vegetarians died and 6 meat eaters from heart conditions so yup they didn't lie but as a meat eat I felt better when I read the full study at not the headlines.

Plus as a light player I'll just core both from behind

That analogy doesn't apply here, as the percentage isn't hiding any truth; the relative durability advantage of the Atlas over the Dire Wolf is smaller with the survival tree.

With the Atlas also losing offensive quirks, the Atlas is definitely being nerfed relative to the Dire Wolf.

MischiefSC, on 01 May 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

Except the 16.67% armor bonus is only useful one time. 16.67% bonus is useful every time you shoot and every mech you shoot.

Which is better - a 16.67% raise to your weekly income or a 16.67% bonus to one weeks income, one time in your life?

Yup; armor/structure quirks might make them somewhat competitive in a 1 vs 1 situation, but in a Many vs Many battle (which all normal MWO battles are), greater firepower is more useful.

Which is why all the armor/structure quirks on underperforming mechs don't raise those mechs beyond mediocrity.

Edited by Zergling, 01 May 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

I like how this thread's OP started with #alternativefacts.

It makes me wonder why people never look at the quirks they are given relative to how often they show up on the field (whether it be comp teams or just regular play).

I guess we have plenty of #alternativefacts by PGI telemetry.

[MischiefSC]

Zergling, on 01 May 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

That analogy doesn't apply here, as the percentage isn't hiding any truth; the relative durability advantage of the Atlas over the Dire Wolf is smaller with the survival tree.

With the Atlas also losing offensive quirks, the Atlas is definitely being nerfed relative to the Dire Wolf.





Yup; armor/structure quirks might make them somewhat competitive in a 1 vs 1 situation, but in a Many vs Many battle (which all normal MWO battles are), greater firepower is more useful.

Which is why all the armor/structure quirks on underperforming mechs don't raise those mechs beyond mediocrity.

It's also why the new skill tree is a trap.

Good players will take good mechs and use it to make them better. Bad players will take mediocre/bad mechs and make them comparatively worse with the skill tree.

Result will just be a bigger gulf between good players and bad players.

Rage will ensue. At best it's going to play just like it does right now.