94 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 02 May 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

I am laughing, as if not having a dorito over someone's head is that powerful. I mean in PUG's yes it is, people in solo queue and hell even in CW without teamspeak have horrible awareness, this is no different from being 300m out with ECM on a map where visuals are just fine so no need for heat or night vision.

PPFLD meta will still kill the mech, "oh it is an atlas, shoot the CT". Laser Vomit will skill kill the mech "Shoot it". Skilldogs won't, so all the sudden all those "skilled" players running streaks will cry, but, well, there are other targets to eat with their "skill" weapons. Or they can learn to aim with normal SRM's. As for TAG or Narc? Logically yes those would break stealth armor, as would Active Probes, all three systems are ACTIVE systems that generate their own signal and don't listen for signals out of an enemy mech. As for laughing at NARC? Well, NARC gets play in even T1 and T2, it is hilarious to watch in fact.

Seriously though "oh that mech doesn't have a dorito over it? Shoot it!" Will be the name of the game and friendly fire incidents will rise due to stealth armor, that's about it. It isn't some godlike power, it isn't something new, it is Guardian ECM that also blocks Thermal and normal sensors when people get close, as well as friendlies, and, prevents you from capping or flipping objects. Yeah, super OP, not, it isn't like the Radar Derp module.

Yup, I am so glad that you are like this elite uber player. Now go back to the issue the actually affects 99.5% of us.

SkyHammyr, on 02 May 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

I read the title and I thought to myself, "the clickbait hyperbole is stong with this one."
Then, the op goes to talk about LRMs & Streaks and that's when he lost me.

Yup, predicted that one too. "I don't use that system, so I don't give a damn"

Great attitude there, slugger! What a winner we have here.

Edited by razenWing, 02 May 2017 - 08:28 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

razenWing, on 02 May 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

Yup, I am so glad that you are like this elite uber player. Now go back to the issue the actually affects 99.5% of us.



Yup, predicted that one too. "I don't use that system, so I don't give a damn"

Great attitude there, slugger! What a winner we have here.

Yes super uber pilot, who started in T5 when the PSR system came out and clawed her way up to T2 over the past year, most of that via a Phoenix Hawk 1b, because lol why not. I will use the Stealth Armor when it comes out on said Phoenix Hawk 1b to see how useful it is, but, I don't feel the utility in it. People can't get a lock on me? They can't now. UAV's? I shoot them down asap and move away from where I was. Oh I hide what part of my mech is damaged? I already do if I keep at range.

Where is the utility. Again, I listed the 5 IS lights that could run it, none of them are that spooky, go make a Raven 3L, a Command 2D, Spider 5D, Locust Pirates' Bane without ferro and instead standard armor since stealth armor is the same weight as standard armor on it. Remember while doing it you have to maintain 2 free slots in both arms, both side torsos, and both legs.

Edit, I threw in some examples as links myself, they don't feel much more threatening, in fact, they are worse as they lose out on cooling or engine in every case. It won't do much to lights, I mean taking a PPC to the face won't disrupt their ECM anymore which is a plus for them, but, that isn't much.

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 02 May 2017 - 08:44 PM.

[razenWing]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 02 May 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Yes super uber pilot, who started in T5 when the PSR system came out and clawed her way up to T2 over the past year, most of that via a Phoenix Hawk 1b, because lol why not. I will use the Stealth Armor when it comes out on said Phoenix Hawk 1b to see how useful it is, but, I don't feel the utility in it. People can't get a lock on me? They can't now. UAV's? I shoot them down asap and move away from where I was. Oh I hide what part of my mech is damaged? I already do if I keep at range.

Where is the utility. Again, I listed the 5 IS lights that could run it, none of them are that spooky, go make a Raven 3L, a Command 2D, Spider 5D, Locust Pirates' Bane without ferro and instead standard armor since stealth armor is the same weight as standard armor on it. Remember while doing it you have to maintain 2 free slots in both arms, both side torsos, and both legs.

You don't get it.

I don't have to spend hours in the mechlab to prove my point. My point is this simply... IMMUNITY IS STUPID. You can argue me all you want about how certain builds can be countered. So what? If you think having a permanent advantage is no big deal because... well... "certain builds won't work as well." Then we really don't have any point of discussion.

With that, I salute you good luck with your impressive climb, and will continue to seek meaningful conversation.

PS Note how EVERYONE saying its no big deal is talking about how it will not supposedly break the game, but no one is talking about how this can be easily exploited into a permanent radar cloak with no penalty.

Edited by razenWing, 02 May 2017 - 08:39 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Did you watch the last Dev stream? They specifically said TAG will affect Stealth armor. So... not immunity.

[ice trey]

While I don't mind the idea of stealth armor, there's really WAY too much in this game as it is that exists to negate LRMs.

I mean, yeah. In the right situation, massed LRMs wreck face, but so much is riding against them now.

Everyone and their mother pack Radar Dep
Everyone and their mother pack ECM
The LRM-improving modules don't do crap to counter either.
It's got that warning claxon
Most cover is made to negate it.
The only way to get a decent lock is for someone to pop a UAV up.
Everyone loves tunnels.

I just wish that they converted LRMs to play more like they do on tabletop, where they're not affected by ECM, they're not anywhere near as well guided as streaks (if guided at all), and indirect fire is WAY less accurate than direct fire. As a direct fire weapon with the option to support indirectly, I think that they'd lose most of the vitriol that they've faced since 2011.

I think ditching the lock-on, removing the guidance, removing the warning, boosting the flight speed, and making the indirect missiles fire at coordinates rather than the mech itself would do worlds to improving gameplay and giving LRM-focused mechs more status than hangar queens that are rendered helpless 9/10 times on the field.

Edited by ice trey, 02 May 2017 - 08:57 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Stealth Armor doesn't generate heat persay; it will cut your Heat Dissipation by a fair amount


That's because it won't frontload any heat (unless it does...), but generate 1 H/s according to TT rules
That's the same as a Flamer right now (before the expontential heat)

It's not a terrible penalty, but it's still not insignificant. On your 10 DHS mech (TrueDubs, no efficiencies) that turns your DHS into WORSE than 10 SHS (but let's say 10 SHS for the ease of testing)


So, either get a picture of what firing your Flamer for the first 4.5s (before increments) does to your cooling, or calculate and grab as many SHS to equal that


That's what your new heat curve is going to be


Flashing it on and off still impacts the cooling, but as with MASC, I'll assume there's some residual heat for a few seconds to prevent spamming it for dissipation reasons



It can be left on for 100% of the time, but you have to deal with SHS, that's how I see it.
Poke a few times, then turn it off behind cover.

[stealthraccoon]

If your ECM is active, it will override a NARC. TAG will override ECM, and will likely also override stealth armor. Most of the common builds for speedy ninja lights will generally not have the slots left. I think you have to focus of the sniper/single weapons builds, or the oddball STD engine Commando to be ultra sneak.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

razenWing, on 02 May 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

You don't get it.

I don't have to spend hours in the mechlab to prove my point. My point is this simply... IMMUNITY IS STUPID. You can argue me all you want about how certain builds can be countered. So what? If you think having a permanent advantage is no big deal because... well... "certain builds won't work as well." Then we really don't have any point of discussion.

With that, I salute you good luck with your impressive climb, and will continue to seek meaningful conversation.

PS Note how EVERYONE saying its no big deal is talking about how it will not supposedly break the game, but no one is talking about how this can be easily exploited into a permanent radar cloak with no penalty.

Oh no you got hard countered? It is like dropping on Polar Highlands with an SRM build. Tough luck, you going to get PPC+Gauss, ERLL, and LRM's all day. Drop on Mining Collective? SPL out the *** with SRM brawlers and streak boats stroking their greasy beards claiming to be skilled, with a lock on weapon that has a near 0 chance of missing. Here's a solution, bring a flamer, or, bring standard SRM's. Streaks exist to ensure a SRM's hit their target, another way to do this is to learn how to aim. You could even mix the two.

Seriously, look at the four mechs I linked, the Spider, Raven, and Locust are popular to a degree, the Raven is so far out that sure you could hit it with tag now but it would run off before your LRM's hit it so moot point. Same with the spider. Locust? You could maybe get a lock if you could twist and turn fast enough, or they dove too hard, or are a **** pilot and ran into something. Every single one of these builds is losing speed or cooling capacity to run stealth armor for immunity to a weapon system that is a hard counter to them that takes no skill to use in a game where most mechs carry enough fire power on one half of the mech to kill them anyways.

Do LRM's need a change? Hell yes they do, PGI ****** them up, but, PGI won't change how lock on weapons work because PGI. Through ECM you should get locks but TAG, NARC, BAP, Artemis? No bonus through ECM against said target. Fire without LOS? Should have a penalty to your spread. So invert Artemis apply that spread to LRM's without LOS, so if you want to do non-LOS LRM's take Artemis to get standard 'Spread'. Then with Artemis with line of sight you get damn good tight missile spread. Also change LRM's to say their optimal range is like 630m, go yellow past that so people. Streaks too, then suddenly stealth armor has a purpose as you can not be targeted, end of story, instead of not be targeted outside of 300m, be invisible on thermal, sure at the cost of 12 slots and your heat sinks are worse.

But, hey, PGI is going to PGI and Stealth armor is going to decrease heat sink efficiency of a mech running it and make it so you can't lock onto a mech under 300m that has ECM on it when stealth armor is on. How threatening. If you must only take lock on only weapons and take no weapons able to dumbfire (even LRM's can) that is your own fault for going with the easy streak builds instead of learning how to aim and taking a ballistic, or PPC, or SRM's to kill lights that can also be used on heavier mechs, because streaks kind of suck against anything over 50 tons.

[Valhallan]

ice trey, on 02 May 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

I just wish that they converted LRMs to play more like they do on tabletop, where they're not affected by ECM, they're not anywhere near as well guided as streaks (if guided at all), and indirect fire is WAY less accurate than direct fire. As a direct fire weapon with the option to support indirectly, I think that they'd lose most of the vitriol that they've faced since 2011.

I think ditching the lock-on, removing the guidance, removing the warning, boosting the flight speed, and making the indirect missiles fire at coordinates rather than the mech itself would do worlds to improving gameplay and giving LRM-focused mechs more status than hangar queens that are rendered helpless 9/10 times on the field.

Well..... actually ecm did affect lrms in TT, by canceling artemis. That being said I too would like the ewarfare to be more like it's TT version. No free target sharing, you need to mount the c3 systems or you can't share targeting data, (clans cannot target share at all). ECM doesn't prevent hardlocking but it does cancel artemis, slows lock time and can nullify c3, no target lock means your weapons will fire as if you are targeting something on max range so the ppfld is much weaker as the weapons convergence will be weaker without that lock (kinda like having artemis or not on missiles, though to a smaller extent). But well we're not likely to get something like this .

OT. IDK where you are getting this lrm immunity, all stealth armor is going to do is hide the mech from heat vision/ seismic. The protection from LRMS/streaks is from the ECM, TAG and the like that break it to allow lrms still work. Also given the bulkiness of IS equipment only meds/lights can really take it, heavies and above will have to give up endo meaning that armor would cost 3-5 tons.

[Tincan Nightmare]

I don't see how the OP can just discount the heat issue with stealth armor. On the CW dev stream they stated that they are still playing with the stats and you will either not lose heat or even possible continue to build heat while using stealth. How quickly can even the most heat neutral build overheat when it can't dissipate any heat at all? Also they could easily introduce a system where it takes a few seconds to go online when activated, and has a cooldown when turned off, to prevent the macro spam you are talking about. I don't see many mechs fighting with stealth active, maybe some poking then running to turn it off to cool down, but any serious extended combat will require them to drop stealth or shutdown. I see it being more of an ambush weapon, allowing someone to get into a advantageous position (say behind their target) undetected, then turning it off to fight. Biggest use of this will probably be sneaky people using it to take out bases in incursion in a surprise attack.

[razenWing]

Tincan Nightmare, on 02 May 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I don't see how the OP can just discount the heat issue with stealth armor. On the CW dev stream they stated that they are still playing with the stats and you will either not lose heat or even possible continue to build heat while using stealth. How quickly can even the most heat neutral build overheat when it can't dissipate any heat at all? Also they could easily introduce a system where it takes a few seconds to go online when activated, and has a cooldown when turned off, to prevent the macro spam you are talking about. I don't see many mechs fighting with stealth active, maybe some poking then running to turn it off to cool down, but any serious extended combat will require them to drop stealth or shutdown. I see it being more of an ambush weapon, allowing someone to get into a advantageous position (say behind their target) undetected, then turning it off to fight. Biggest use of this will probably be sneaky people using it to take out bases in incursion in a surprise attack.

It can be ignored because as I was saying... you can easily exploit it by turning it on and off. and if you can't do it manually, use a macro for no heat. Let's be real realistic, how much heat is really going to be an issue if you activate for only 1 milisecond for the sole purpose to disrupt lock? Now, sure, they can make it 10 heat per milisecond, but that's not realistic as you are not doing 5000 heat per second.

[Tincan Nightmare]

That's if they allow it to work like that. What if they put in a cooldown to both activate and deactivate it? Would be pretty hard to flip the switch back and forth if it doesn't work. If they even give it a small window of 2 or 3 seconds to be effective once activated, and maybe a 10 second cooldown once turned off, it will not work like some instant lock disruption as you describe it. Not to mention, why would you even bother since you will have to be using an ECM anyway? I imagine the ECM will still work like normal whether stealth is active or not, making the unit pretty much immune to locks anyway. And even if PGI doesn't put in a CD, your proposal would pretty much ensure that your mech also never loses heat, as the flipping back and forth would also mean stealth never really turns off, meaning you get to shoot a few times and then shutdown because it effectively turns off your heat sinks while active (no heat dissipation at all in stealth).

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 02 May 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

It really just goes to show that missile locks shouldn't be dependent on red doritos. You should be able to get a lock on any target in your LoS, with the caveat that targets without doritos just take longer to lock and lose the lock immediately if you can't hold your cursor over the target.

On the other hand, I would greatly enjoy running a light mech with Stealth Armor just to troll the living hell out of Skillcrows and other similar designs. They deserve it.

i liked lerms the mwll way. lerms can only be used indirectly when there is tag or narc or a c3 chain in play. direct fire was also problematic with everyone running passive radar, and that you had to run active radar to get locks, lighting you up as a target. thus an lrm80 mad dog was actually not op at all, even though if you managed to get a lock on something it was pretty much a death sentence for the guy on the receiving end.

still its going to be heavy and it will also be paper. its going to be the light mech armor of choice though, along with the micro lasers and heavy machine guns and the engine desync, a lot of assault pilots will be rage quitting and a lot of light pilots will be racking up kills.

[Pjwned]

If only PGI would relegate the current ECM functionality to stealth armor and make ECM do what it's actually supposed to do according to lore, that would be 1 major problem (out of many) finally solved.

But there's no reason to think they'll do something actually smart like that, since they've already broken their promises multiple times to actually address ECM properly, and the ECM "nerfs" coming with the skill tree still don't cut it.

[627]

I think you'll see more mech with IS Ferro than Stealth armor, even "niche system" would be exaggerated.

But for the OP Macro thing, this could be denied completely with a flat heat tax for turning it on. Maybe it will be 1heat/second when it is on, but to turn it on you have to pay 5 heat. Sure, go on, toggle it with a macro, will be fun.

[HGAK47]

WTF is this incoherent babble op?

[Shifty McSwift]

627, on 02 May 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

I think you'll see more mech with IS Ferro than Stealth armor, even "niche system" would be exaggerated.

But for the OP Macro thing, this could be denied completely with a flat heat tax for turning it on. Maybe it will be 1heat/second when it is on, but to turn it on you have to pay 5 heat. Sure, go on, toggle it with a macro, will be fun.

Yup, pretty simple ways to balance that fear; timer, ignition charge.

[El Bandito]

OP forgets to mention that when you turn on stealth armor, you lose all targeting yourself as well. It is a double edged sword. Sure, the enemy is gonna lose the lock, but so will you, and your teammates will not be able to identify you either. Friendly fire will become a serious issue then.

Stealth armor is nothing too fancy, as we have been dealing with ECM mechs for 4+ years.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2017 - 05:14 PM.

[Tarogato]

I look forward to completely ignoring that this equipment exists.

It will be worthless.

Sacrificing the weight savings of Ferro just so that you can toggle your ECM to "immune to locks-ons but builds heat" ?

No. Not worth the sacrifice in tonnage/slots. I have a hard time imagining what mechs will benefit at all from this.

And macros will not be a problem. You can't spam the present ECM, can you? It's on a timer, you can only toggle Disrupt/Counter every second, and no faster. PGI could just give Stealth a longer timer.

[Spheroid]

Foolish scrub, I am just going to saw your legs off with direct fire weapon same as it is now. I don't need a dorito, paper doll or anything else just the mark I. eyeball.

Seldom have I seen a prediction more out of touch with reality. Stealth armor the new meta? LOL.