91 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mister Blastman, on 04 May 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

And that's suicide.

PUGs versus comms. No thanks. I prefer not to be someone else's chattel.

Pugs can have comms too. I play almost entirely by myself in FW games and I do pretty okay.

Or just play a lot of scouting.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 04 May 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

3 battles of Tukayyid, and there still isn't Clan Diamond Shark to participate in it. 'grumbles about CDS fairing better than most of the other Clans there'

nope... they got rolled! Wolf won while Ghost Bear & Jade Falcon drew but it was a typical pug rollstomp for the rest. It was so bad for Diamond Shark that it was what shaped the Clan there after by reducing the importance of the Warrior Caste because they lost almost the entirety of their Elite Formations & the Merchant Caste was able to claim such a dominant position. They never really recovered and was instrumental in not only their leaving the Clan worlds but in transforming back into Clan Sea Fox, the impact of their utterly defeat of at Tukayyid. Viper might have lost harder (really the only Clan that the case could even be made for) they also suffered the least amount of Combat Unit Loss , which meant that in a broader scope of "fairing better" the Viper was one of the those who had the most benefit from their loss. So as far as Immediate or Long Term judging of Diamond Shark performance at Tukayyid... they handily did the absolute worst of any Clan present.

[kesmai]

I'm underwhelmed.
Giving the necessary time to get the rewards, those rewards are a joke.
Talking about cheapstakes...

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Stopped reading at "Tukkayid 3."

We all know how this is going to play out. All of the current top units will pile up on one side- probably Clan- and proceed to roflstomp so hard that PGI will need to extend the event and offer additional incentives to draw in more opposition or entice units to flip. It won't be enough, because they like winning more than they like the various rewards, which are irrelevant to most of the top players because they all have massive surpluses of cbills and whatnot. Terra will fall- again- and everyone will go back to ignoring CW completely.

Besides... are we really doing this again? We're getting a timeline advance, so why can't we have Operation Bulldog instead? Y'know, so the Inner Sphere can catastrophically fail a different key turning point campaign that was a spectacular victory in lore. Or, y'know, maybe putting the IS on the attack might actually convince enough IS players to care about the event that it flips the other way and actually results in a win. It would be pretty funny to see the forum salt after those smarmy Jaguars got stomped into smoking wreckage... especially if the faction were then deleted from the game before the Civil War update.

But that would make too much sense, so let's go back to Tukayyid. In fact, let's go back to Tukayyid every year until the game servers go offline, instead of advancing the events and faction map with the game timeline. That sounds like a winning strategy for keeping things fresh and interesting.

...nuts, there goes my salty snark quota for the day.

[RestosIII]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 04 May 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

hey handily did the absolute worst of any Clan present.

U wot m8. Have you even seen what happened to CSJ at Tukayyid? And the main reasons CDS even got overrun is the fact that reinforcements from the troops that had just whooped CSJ's rear showed up, and the fact that Hawker was an incompetent fool that held the Freebirth forces in Omega Galaxy back until the end. And you need to remember, what losses CDS had were easily refilled due to the dual Warrior/Merchant caste reserve system that's in place. And I really don't give a rat's posterior about 3,100+ era stuff, so they stay CDS in my mind forever.

And I might as well mention, Nova Cat had a massive kill count, and it's a damn shame they aren't included as well.

[Elizander]

LT. HARDCASE, on 04 May 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

What's the point in giving away 30 something cache keys?

Dunno, but I have 30+ caches that all have a mech bay or mech in it (I sold the rest that didn't).

[Valhallan]

Eh just spam scouting, at least the gap isn't as bad there

[Skipmagnet]

Was it the sharks or the vipers that got curbstomped trying to cross the river and basically handed the Comguard like a full galaxy of nearly pristine mech (minus boiled alive pilots, obv)?

[Curccu]

kesmai, on 04 May 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

I'm underwhelmed.
Giving the necessary time to get the rewards, those rewards are a joke.
Talking about cheapstakes...

Really?
- Daily progress reward = 1-2 games each day, not that much really?
- United or Solitary = 5000XP per day which is also 1-2 games each day. (unit should get that 100k XP eaaasily...)
- Scouting mode: 2 wins for 7 days of premium, I would say that is stupid easy. 4 for 1M CB and 8 for that MC, can be done in hour'ish.
- Faction Play Match Participation: 20 games for top reward = little over 2 games a day.
- Faction Play Match Score: 6600 total match score with those 20 games ^ you need to average 330 match score, which is doable, might take few more BUT last two rewards is 15M CB so it should be worth it easily... how many pug games do you have to play to earn 15M CB? (not even including CB you get while playing these CW matches)

So IMO rewards are good.

Edited by Curccu, 04 May 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 04 May 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

U wot m8. Have you even seen what happened to CSJ at Tukayyid? And the main reasons CDS even got overrun is the fact that reinforcements from the troops that had just whooped CSJ's rear showed up, and the fact that Hawker was an incompetent fool that held the Freebirth forces in Omega Galaxy back until the end. And you need to remember, what losses CDS had were easily refilled due to the dual Warrior/Merchant caste reserve system that's in place. And I really don't give a rat's posterior about 3,100+ era stuff, so they stay CDS in my mind forever.

And I might as well mention, Nova Cat had a massive kill count, and it's a damn shame they aren't included as well.

The failure of Jade Falcon to achieve any objectives does not detract from the overall effect that they did more damage then they took... nor the fact that Diamond Shark suffered the HIGHEST causality percentages especially in comparison to their overall Clan size. The death of Diamond Shark into needing to be reborn back to Sea Fox as an inner sphere Clan can be traced directly back to their crushing defeat at Tukayyid... they had the absolute worst performance of any Clan there. You can try to justify the WHY of how it happened in any fashion that you want but they lost virtually all the forces they committed and that was a larger percentage of their total force than other clans who did not even suffer the same causality rates.

Your refusal to acknowledge what happened to Diamond Shark as a direct consequence to their horrific performance at Tukayyid is no more relevant than your refusal to acknowledge what actually happened AT Tukayyid... Diamond Shark did the absolute worst and had direct dire consequences for that failure. Ghost Bear took their only IS world and the other clans took vast chunks of thier clan world holdings because of the actual weakness caused by losing so much top tier warriors and the perceived weakness of that loss coupled with the success others were having taking Diamond Shark holdings. There is solid case to be made that is was in fact the IS who saved Diamond Shark because Operation Bulldog did quite a lot to save Diamond Shark just by getting everyone to stop taking their holdings and getting to the point they had been so diminished that a Trial of Absorption could have been called on them

So in conclusion... your entire premise about how well Diamond Shark did is utterly untrue, a delusion you have that exists only in your own mind but no where else.

[Khobai]

Tukkayid more like Stuppayid. Why would anyone agree to fight a proxy battle on their enemy's terms when theyre already winning the real battle on their own terms? It takes a special kindve stupid to agree to that.

Yeah I get that it was to save lives and irreplaceable technology/infrastructure. But the clans couldve accomplished the same thing by demanding the innersphere's unconditional surrender. And if the innersphere didnt surrender the resulting loss of life would be entirely on them.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2017 - 12:21 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

eyeballs, on 04 May 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Was it the sharks or the vipers that got curbstomped trying to cross the river and basically handed the Comguard like a full galaxy of nearly pristine mech (minus boiled alive pilots, obv)?

That was the Vipers... they did horribly as well, really the only ones who can be argued did as bad or worse than Sharks. But since Vipers committed a fraction of the force then they lost not nearly as much meaning they were less losers than the Sharks.

Khobai, on 05 May 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Tukkayid more like Stuppayid. Why would anyone agree to fight a proxy battle on their enemy's terms when theyre already winning the real battle on their own terms? It takes a special kindve stupid to agree to that.

Yeah I get that it was to save lives and irreplaceable technology/infrastructure. But the clans couldve accomplished the same thing by demanding the innersphere's unconditional surrender. And if the innersphere didnt surrender the resulting loss of life would be entirely on them.

That is NOT actually how morality works... under your logic than a rap.ist did not really do anything wrong, the woman should have just said yes to start with.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 05 May 2017 - 12:24 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That is NOT actually how morality works... under your logic than a rap.ist did not really do anything wrong, the woman should have just said yes to start with.

huh that analogy isnt at all the same thing

because surrendering to the clans wouldve meant the destruction and loss of life would STOP.

kindve like when japan surrendered to the US, the US didnt keep dropping nukes on them after they surrendered. the hostility ended. And its not like the clans were genocidal, they didnt want to wipe out the innersphere, they just wanted to take over politically, create a fully restored starleague, and usher in a new golden age for humanity. And in restrospect, if the IS had just surrendered to the clans the whole davion civil war, jihad, or dark age probably never wouldve happened. So the stupid clans ultimately caused the dark age they sought to prevent in the first place, and got dragged down with it.

the fact remains that the clans were stupid for giving up their surefire victory for a shortcut that they werent guaranteed to win. if kerenksy was the greatest general in living history he sure didnt teach his descendents anything.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2017 - 12:40 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 05 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

if kerenksy was the greatest general in living history he sure didnt teach his descendents anything.

Mankind is just a rather short memorizing bunch of fools. History repeats so often and badly because of exactly this.

[Valhallan]

Khobai, on 05 May 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Tukkayid more like Stuppayid. Why would anyone agree to fight a proxy battle on their enemy's terms when theyre already winning the real battle on their own terms? It takes a special kindve stupid to agree to that.

Yeah I get that it was to save lives and irreplaceable technology/infrastructure. But the clans couldve accomplished the same thing by demanding the innersphere's unconditional surrender. And if the innersphere didnt surrender the resulting loss of life would be entirely on them.

LOL, given that the clans structured their society on exactly that kind of combat and totally expected comstar to rollover like the scattered resistance the houses put up OF COURSE they would bloody accept.

Oh yea the innersphere would have totally rolled over and not decided to just spam nukes like the first succession war, and comstar would've totally rolled over and continued supporting the clans with comstar intel and infrastructure (while the inner sphere twiddles its thumbs and allows comstar to continue doing it) despite knowing that the clans would dismantle them afterward. Thats a whole nother level of stupid right there.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 05 May 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Tukkayid more like Stuppayid. Why would anyone agree to fight a proxy battle on their enemy's terms when theyre already winning the real battle on their own terms? It takes a special kindve stupid to agree to that.

Yeah I get that it was to save lives and irreplaceable technology/infrastructure. But the clans couldve accomplished the same thing by demanding the innersphere's unconditional surrender. And if the innersphere didnt surrender the resulting loss of life would be entirely on them.

The invading Clans simply couldn't take and hold the entire Inner Sphere, and would have been destroyed in the end. Ulric Kerensky knew that. He wanted to save the Clans from destruction, as well as upholding his Warden views, which is why he bargained with Anastasius Focht.

[Valhallan]

El Bandito, on 05 May 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:

The invading Clans simply couldn't take and hold the entire Inner Sphere, and would have been destroyed in the end. Ulric Kerensky knew that. He wanted to save the Clans from destruction, as well as upholding his Warden views, which is why he bargained with Anastasius Focht.

Yea something that a lot of clanners conveniently forget is that Comstar was a large part as to the Clans successes, Comstar being the primary communication provider suppressing all communication that passed through their hands regarding the invaders as well as handing over military intel, in addition supplying personnel for facilitating the suppression of conquered worlds using comstar's face. The clans wouldn't have been nearly as successful if comstar wasn't being an *** and the innersphere got it together.

[Skipmagnet]

Plus, it can be argued (and was by the Jade Falcons, see the Refusal War) that Ulrich never intended for the Clans to win at Tukkayid.

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 May 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

still doesn't look exciting enough to make me give a damn enough to waste time on FW and getting in 1 drop an hour on a good night.

To get this thread back on track (give it a rest ya lore nerds )...I made a similar point on the announcement thread, and I think that as impressive as the rewards are, Bishop is right. I think that if they want the people who have played CW in the past -and left- to give it a solid effort for this event and to draw noobs and casuals in as well, then rewards will need to be even greater. Like doubling c-bills for participation (not based on win or loss, but a bonus just for playing), that sort of thing.

If you peruse the FP forums over the last year there are several complaints as to why people left, and the rewards they are providing for this event I don't think will be enough to get casuals and FP-expats to return in mass numbers. Sure, as is, there will be a boost relative to the normal barren wasteland of population that normally defines the FP experience, but better/more participation based rewards might attract far more.

I mean, will these rewards overcome the hate/fear many have of the oft cited pug stomping by organized units?
Will these rewards overcome many folks dislike of the time commitment that an FP drop involves?
Will these rewards act to address the concern many have (however irrational) of using TS or discord and dropping with an established unit?
Will these rewards make the "this is hard core mode enter at your own risk" aspect of the advertised FP experience go away for the length of the event?

If the answer to any these questions is "no", then PGI ought to try and come up with motivators that will make the answer turn to "yes" for as many of the casual population -and even the CW haters- as possible. I think a good way to do that would be some sort of greater bonus or prize associated with simply playing and not tied to outcome of the match or the tug-of-war. [And no this isn't some commentary on "special snowflakes" or the "suck it up buttercup" aspects of society. This is just my commentary on how I think PGI could get more people to bother playing the event and hopefully make it more populated and thus more fun for everyone]

TLDR:
PGI: if nothing else think of it this way: if you want people to spend their time acting as targets of abuse for the organized groups that usually dominate FP (this is the perception of FP that a lot of folks express), then make it worth the while for people to act as those targets. The current rewards may not be enough incentive, however great those rewards may be. Including better and greater rewards for per match play not based on outcome of the match, the day or the tug-of-war might help in that regard.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Khobai, on 05 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

huh that analogy isnt at all the same thing

because surrendering to the clans wouldve meant the destruction and loss of life would STOP.

kindve like when japan surrendered to the US, the US didnt keep dropping nukes on them after they surrendered. the hostility ended. And its not like the clans were genocidal, they didnt want to wipe out the innersphere, they just wanted to take over politically, create a fully restored starleague, and usher in a new golden age for humanity. And in restrospect, if the IS had just surrendered to the clans the whole davion civil war, jihad, or dark age probably never wouldve happened. So the stupid clans ultimately caused the dark age they sought to prevent in the first place, and got dragged down with it.

the fact remains that the clans were stupid for giving up their surefire victory for a shortcut that they werent guaranteed to win. if kerenksy was the greatest general in living history he sure didnt teach his descendents anything.

actually it fits perfectly... the USA was dropping nukes on Japan in a Just War, where we were fighting against an aggressor who attacked us first. You live in a delusional wonderland if you think human nature works that way... nukes and bioweapons would have come out as the Clans won more. As a society is stressed it resorts to ever more desperate measures... now the Inner Sphere went through a normal destructive period in the 1st Succession War but it was kept in an ever decreasing state by the hideous cancer hiding in its center called Comstar. Comstar is wholly responsible for the Inner Sphere not recovering & advancing like they should have naturally (hence what makes them the Catholic Church that kept Europe in the Dark Ages for a 1000 years)... the Clans could not militarily conquer the whole of the Inner Sphere, it is so far beyond their material resources that it is laughable at best and sad that you think given the information provided that they could have since it shows a severe lack of critical thinking skills on your part.

Since Kerensky left explicit instructions that the "Clans" were supposed to be disbanded and restored to a functional Democracy not a Totalitarian Military Caste system, that all the Khans when they opened his letter promptly destroyed and never followed. Then your premise about a "golden age of humanity" being found under a Totalitarian State is so terrible that I am quite literally horrified that you express it, yet the 20th century taught us through the 100s of millions of lives lost what truly catastrophic ideas they are, people are still expressing them in the 21st century about how Socialism/Communism is going to work this time.