70 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

That the Cataphract receives a hitbox overhaul, which beyond the "Bikini strap" has had its hitboxes mostly unchanged since 2012.

2012.


Current


For comparison...
Classic Dragon.

Damn that looks familiar... oh wait a Cataphract.

Current Dragon.

Now that's sexy. And prior to quirks, it actually could tank like this, too.

Classic Awesome.

Wait a second, is that a Cataphract!?



Okay, well the Awesome couldn't really improve much but the size reduction has helped.

But that Cataphract man, it reminds me of another Cat.


yeah, that Cat.


It could use this sort of (hitbox) improvement, especially in this universe of 12.5 to 50% faster firing weapons above the already 3x to 19x faster rates of the source material (an AC/2 currently delivers -- unquirked and no skill tree -- the damage of a tabletop RAC/2 within 3.6 seconds), so in this universe of perfectly aimed PPFLD, these Cataphract hitboxes are too god damn big and too damn straight forward and the armor buffs are ultimately a poor substitute.

(Before someone comments "but the Catapult got a size reduction", it is true that size reduction even without a hitbox change 'could' work, but it isn't the size of the mech that is main issue, it's that at 600 meters the center torso hitbox is 2 reticule widths wide, meaning you cannot fail to hit it.
Edit:

Since the Jenner's been mentioned...


OMG THAT'S A CATAPHRACT Oh wait... Jenners were always so damn easy to kill back then.

Improvements...


Current:

In comparison, these ******* tank like mad, even in private matches with quirks turned off. Before twin AC/20s could just level them, now they take almost twice as many hits because the Armor of the hitboxes are shared better due to being closer together, allowing the mech to live longer by taking more damage and making it harder to focus on a specific torso.

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 11:44 AM.

[AnTi90d]

TIL: Awesomes don't have nards.. so there's no point in kicking their crotches.

[Mister Blastman]

Sure, I'm all for it. Just as soon as they up the ghost heat limit on regular IS PPCs to 3.

[Bud Crue]

Not sure how they would re-do the Phract hitboxes or if such an update would do any good.
I almost always die from CT loss despite the fact that many players focus the RT just to neuter the predominant ballistics. I suppose you could make the CT a bit smaller but then that would be a very odd hit box doing nothing more as framing in the CP.
Honestly from a hardpoint and hitbox perspective the Phract is screwed no matter what.

That being said, if I were Dev on high for a day, I think what I would do to help the Phract the most is to increase its twist ability to some amazing level. Now and after decoupling/skills tree.

Yes, the Phract will benefit from LFE, but I don't think it will be a game changer because again...its CT is going to draw fire no matter what it seems. Oh well.

[Monkey Lover]

I wish they would just start transferring damage to the side components the closer you get to the edge of the hit boxes.
This would cause more spreading and increased ttk.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

(an AC/2 currently delivers -- unquirked and no skill tree -- the damage of a tabletop RAC/2 within 3.6 seconds)

Sorry, but can you stop using this like it is OMG TERRIBLE that the AC2 can actually damage for the tonnage it uses. Without that it would be horrible since we don't have BV which was the AC2s sole saving grace. That said, the Cataphract isn't even the worst offender in the hitbox department in the 70 ton range as the Grasshopper still has an insanely large CT just like the Cataphract (the only difference is the Grasshopper has better quirks/hardpoints so it doesn't draw as much attention to it).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

Sorry, but can you stop using this like it is OMG TERRIBLE that the AC2 can actually damage for the tonnage it uses. Without that it would be horrible since we don't have BV which was the AC2s sole saving grace.

All weapons are extremely high damage rates here.

AC/2's current saving grace is that it delivers 15x its tabletop damage. Minimum. (UAC/2 without jamming can deliver 30x, again minimum).
Compared to AC/5 delivering 7.66667x its tabletop damage.
AC/20 delivering 3.5x its tabletop damage.

Lasers I won't dig into, but without quirks they easily net well beyond 3x their damage.

All of these come with that same amount of extra heat. Meaning we MUST have XL engines to be viable. We MUST have the maximum available tonnage. We MUST be as fragile as possible to even handle the heat of the EXCESSIVE firepower we throw out. We CANNOT be viable with standard engines, we CANNOT be viable with maximum slot savings and single heatsinks. We have twice as much armor, twice as much structure, and, AND we have just tons and tons worth of extra armor and structure quirks to help us live longer and we live not even 1/10th as long as mechs do in the source material.

Now, the AC/2 might not be fantastic, but at least its potential damage of 6 (double fire + direct blows) is a lot easier to manage and balance than 30 damage.
UAC/20 delivers 120 damage here, where it'd only be a maximum potential of 44 damage "elsewhere."
An ER PPC with 15 heat, well it'd be 15 heat instead of 45 heat or our currently reduced 40.5 heat. And the irony is we might do 10 to 15 damage per shot, but one shot there is 10 to 15 damage. Here, against our current situation without quirks, we're looking at a shot being worth an appalling 5 to 7.5 damage in comparison to the effect that it would have in the other material.

Think about that.
We could suffer 15 heat, deliver 10 to 15 damage.
But here, we're actually netting 13.5 heat to do what is effectively 5 to 7.5 damage, YET, that's a great thing in your eyes because we get to spam it up to 40.5 heat so that we can net a grandiose effective comparison of 15 to 22.5 damage for 6 to 7 tons, oh my gawd that is so worth it! So worth it!

....Sorry, but could You get off of it?
-----
Anyway, back to the actual topic. We deliver too much damage, too quickly, for hitboxes to be THIS BIG and this straight forward. No other mech in MWO has a CT this large. It is currently as wide as a Panther, and we know that Panthers are 0.6 meters shorter than Hunchbacks (which is freakishly tall; but that's not my complaint).

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 07:33 AM.

[Koniving]

(And before the question comes: AC/2s like UAC/2s can double fire per the TacOps Rapid Fire Autocannons rule; [details]

Spoiler

the risk of course is that it is twice as likely to jam, and it could also blow up in your face. But considering it is the longest range weapon when considering basic ranges, or factoring in Extreme Ranges, or even factoring in Extreme Ranges + Maxtech piloting skill "Sniper," you're looking at a weapon that could do up to 6 damage (total in 10 seconds) at a range of (Extreme range 960 + Sniper Skill) 1920 meters...

would the AC/2 really be so bad, when the PPC is doing 12 damage in a single shot (with only a single shot in 10), the AC/20 is doing 44 damage in two shots [or we can spread it out more to make a lot more sense, but still land that 44 damae in 10 seconds), the UAC/20 is doing 44 in two shots (but not blowing up in your face or jamming as often).. And we're all living longer without structure quirks, armor quirks, and 1x armor/structure?)

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 07:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

All of these come with that same amount of extra heat. Meaning we MUST have XL engines to be viable. We MUST have the maximum available tonnage. We MUST be as fragile as possible to even handle the heat of the EXCESSIVE firepower we throw out. We CANNOT be viable with standard engines, we CANNOT be viable with maximum slot savings and single heatsinks.

First, I don't think you understand why STD engines aren't viable, and it really doesn't have much to do with heat (because generally they are relatively equal in heat dissipation). The reason they aren't viable is to get that heat dissipation you have to drop speed, and the extra survivability you gain from mounting the STD engine isn't worth the fragility of the loss in speed. That's it, the trade off of speed for the potential to survive longer isn't worth it. Has nothing to do with heat (alright, that's a lie, it has a little bit to do with heat since you generally lose 1-2 DHS in the change, but that isn't as huge as the speed, nowhere close).

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

....Sorry, but could You get off of it?

Only if you start using an actually good weapon that isn't absolute trash without insane refire rates as your proof of how we do too much damage too fast. That, and you need a better understanding of why people run the things to do as evidenced by why you think XL engines are preferred over STD engines (which was mostly brought on by the Clans since before them and the poptart nerfs the CTF-3D ran a STD engine iirc).

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

No other mech in MWO has a CT this large.

Pretty sure the Grasshopper and Banshee give it a run for its money because those are both more notorious for being CT'd than the Cataphract (which is more often XL checked).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 07:49 AM.

[Ultimax]

Making it's STs larger to make CT smaller would only buff STD engine Cataphract builds - none of which are remotely relevant in the game.

It's better off having smaller STs so it can run XL and actually have some guns.


Welcome to balance by bad, old, artwork.


The bigger, effectively unsolvable problem, with the CTF is how it's arm mounted weaponry is.

[Lily from animove]

yes there is surely a few mechs still left needing this. Worst is probably still the catapult as all mechs with wide hips and CT area there cnanot even utilise twisting vs opponents knowing about those hitboxes. .

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 May 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Ultimax, on 05 May 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Making it's STs larger to make CT smaller would only buff STD engine Cataphract builds - none of which are remotely relevant in the game.

It's better off having smaller STs so it can run XL and actually have some guns.


Welcome to balance by bad, old, artwork.


The bigger, effectively unsolvable problem, with the CTF is how it's arm mounted weaponry is.

Yeah. I suggested a year ago that as part of rescale they ought to move the RT ballistics mount up to shoulder level (lore 0xp) or at least chest height. More the left hand under arm hardpoints to the top of the arm (or at least the side(s)); and re-configure the right arm paddle such that the hard points are above crotch height at the minimum.

Alas, for various reasons I was told that Cataphracts were "fine" as is. Odd that they should need all those quirks if they are fine.

[Metus regem]

Bud Crue, on 05 May 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Yeah. I suggested a year ago that as part of rescale they ought to move the RT ballistics mount up to shoulder level (lore 0xp) or at least chest height. More the left hand under arm hardpoints to the top of the arm (or at least the side(s)); and re-configure the right arm paddle such that the hard points are above crotch height at the minimum.

Alas, for various reasons I was told that Cataphracts were "fine" as is. Odd that they should need all those quirks if they are fine.

Tell me about it, I rather enjoyed the old Dragon hit boxes, I tended to run mine (and still do) with large XL engines, usually in the 340 to 360 range... Just the older hit boxes made it way more XL friendly....

[Koniving]

Ultimax, on 05 May 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Making it's STs larger to make CT smaller would only buff STD engine Cataphract builds - none of which are remotely relevant in the game.

It's better off having smaller STs so it can run XL and actually have some guns.

Welcome to balance by bad, old, artwork.


The bigger, effectively unsolvable problem, with the CTF is how it's arm mounted weaponry is.

A maximum size XL hasn't proven more viable, however, in a 3L. It still dies the same way, CT.

STD and XL engine cataphracts lived a long time back in the day, in fact they were the meta for a long time, but we delivered significantly less damage for greater amounts of heat back then. That time has passed thanks to quirks. 22 extra front armor, netting a total of 104 front armor and 44 structure doesn't keep the Cataphract from dying in under 5 seconds of direct fire from two targets while moving in a diagonal strafing path at 78.7 kph.

Meanwhile a few years back, 72 armor and 44 structure back then on the front torso could sustain fire for almost 11 seconds from two similar targets (while going as slow as 48 kph) while moving directly at the enemy, and against a single enemy and without using torso twist, you had the time to pick up a cup, fill it with mountain dew, drink said mountain dew, open up chat, send several messages describing what you literally just did, followed by "It's been fun but it's time to kill you now," and actually kill the enemy.

Now you'll be lucky enough to get to type "Hi" against a single enemy before you're dead.

Also, certain slower cataphracts will never benefit by XL, despite how they have stock armor that rivals even 85 ton assault mechs and are tons higher in armor than their much faster brother and sister variants... and yet they aren't getting much of crap for armor buffs.

Also, what about the viability of the LFE? LFE needs LARGE side torsos to be viable, otherwise the center torso is the only place to shoot.

STs can be protected, CTs cannot on these older mech designs.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 05 May 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Tell me about it, I rather enjoyed the old Dragon hit boxes, I tended to run mine (and still do) with large XL engines, usually in the 340 to 360 range... Just the older hit boxes made it way more XL friendly....

While true, I run mine with XL and STD engines still. However back then, you know when dragons were popular and not niche because Everyone had Arm Skills instead of the crutch that is Armlock (and as such, only your arm weapons could be truly 100% accurate; making the Dragon about the closest thing to OP as possible if you had the skills to use it)... we had terrible hit detection too. Those old hit boxes today...

Well Kintaro's reputation is the embodiment of why the old hitboxes would NOT work today. It came out with tiny STs, a big CT that would leave a Dragon in awe... but it released during good hit detection. We at Zhizhu came to know it as the 3 second flop.

With the new hitboxes, before rescale, and before quirks... that sucker (the Dragon) tanked.
Now, it's actually kinda ridiculous how that thing tanks. Not that most people know it.

Side note: Kintaro's hitboxes after the 'fix' were pretty phenomenal, as such during a time when Clans had quirks and the IS didn't, it was amazing provided you used those basic skills that a Dragon could teach you -- use your damn arms! Despite the more than 3 times the ST size of the original and half the CT size, the Kintaro is perfectly viable with an XL engine.

(edits: Clarified a subject jump that wasn't clear when my wife read it.)

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

While true, I run mine with XL and STD engines still. However back then, you know when dragons were popular and not niche because Everyone had Arm Skills instead of the crutch that is Armlock (and as such, only your arm weapons could be truly 100% accurate; making the Dragon about the closest thing to OP as possible if you had the skills to use it)... we had terrible hit detection too. Those old hit boxes today...

Sadly I missed out on the CB, I was still flying Gunships in Iraq in 2012, but I think I would've had a great time in CB with a Dragon...

Still I started using them when Clan wave 1 was still $ only... the Dragon 1C was the second mech I ever bought in MWO, with a Highlander 732 being the first... man I hated using Gauss Rilfes back then... also learned the hard way that I was not a Highlander pilot... Dragon yes, I just used it like I did my Gunship, just like I do with my Bushy today...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 05 May 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

STD and XL engine cataphracts lived a long time back in the day, in fact they were the meta for a long time

There have also been 2+ years worth of mechs added to the game since those days as well. The Cataphract never had the greatest layout, the only reason it was meta was because it was the ONLY heavy that could poptart with Gauss/PPC/ACs (which is no longer the case either). It is important to understand why a mech is meta and whether it is meta because it is the least worst option (CTF-3D back in the day) or because it just has a great combination of hardpoints, mounts, hitboxes, etc (KDK-3/HBK-IIC). The CTF-3D is similar to the Timby poptart honestly (which has faded into obscurity itself a bit).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Lily from animove, on 05 May 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

yes ther eis surely a few mechs still elft needing this. Worst is probably still the catapult as all mechs with wide hips and CT area there cnanot even utilise twisting vs opponents knowing about those hitboxes. .

I'm gonna consider this sarcastic humor.

Edited by Wildstreak, 05 May 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mister Blastman, on 05 May 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Sure, I'm all for it. Just as soon as they up the ghost heat limit on regular IS PPCs to 3.

While we're at it, IS ERPPCs and the incoming SNPPCs could use the same treatment

OT:
Sure, hitbox changes may get me playing mt CTFs again, rather than selling them once the new tech drops.

[Koniving]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

There have also been 2+ years worth of mechs added to the game since those days as well. The Cataphract never had the greatest layout, the only reason it was meta was because it was the ONLY heavy that could poptart with Gauss/PPC/ACs (which is no longer the case either). It is important to understand why a mech is meta and whether it is meta because it is the least worst option (CTF-3D back in the day) or because it just has a great combination of hardpoints, mounts, hitboxes, etc (KDK-3/HBK-IIC).

I failed to share in that meta, in fact I have never, ever, owned a Cataphract 3D. And when I had a chance to do so last month, I considered buying one... then I pulled my other Cataphracts... the 2X, 4X, 1X, 0X, Muromets and 3L out... every... single... one of them is a flop. My builds, old and new, don't work. No matter what, twisting or tanking, long range or short, fast or slow, STD or XL, I'm dying in a whopping 15 seconds of combat or less and every time it's by the CT.

I even did the old trick I once did to stand toe to toe with an ATlas for 2 and a half minutes at 180 meters give or take, one on one against 2 SRM 6s, AC/20, 4 ML, whom was most memorable for his ability to throw his left or right arm into the way of an incoming AC/20 blast almost routinely to the point that I destroyed an arm before I could get his ST's armor red, while using a Muromets with an AC/20, 3 ML and 2 MGs. That trick being to copy what Atlas did every time he threw his AC/20 or SRMs at me (since he followed a pattern of AC/20 followed by 2 ML, a second after the MLs were fired he'd throw the twin SRM-6s at the same time, then block my AC/20 with his arm and simultaneously attack with the 2 chest ML.

In other words, throwing my arms up to catch shots and use them as shields was also rendered completely worthless, as the arms can't protect the CT with the accuracy we now have.

Long story short, I never enjoyed that meta. Cataphracts were viable as grounded, tanking machines that could take damage and dish it out, that could take the old 4 damage in 10 seconds MGs.... and do this.

My point being, Cataphracts were viable as normal, non-meta mechs, back when that hitbox design was viable. That hitbox design hasn't been viable since 2015, around the time when the Cataphracts began to die out.


(Edit: "almost routinely to the point that I destroyed before I could get his ST red."
Inserted "an arm")

Edited by Koniving, 05 May 2017 - 09:14 AM.