77 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

So, with Skill tree dropping soon, the Light mech issue has to be dealt with. On one hand, a good portion of the community has this idea in their heads that Lights are "nothing but scouts". This seems to be the driving logic behind about 95% of all Light nerfs. On the other hand, apparently the Objectives in Objective-based game modes aren't supposed to matter, so Mechs that aren't good at combat(Such as all but two Light mechs) can't earn any Cbills. Well, something has to give here. One of two things needs to happen:

1) buff Lights to be capable of competing with the heavier weightclasses. This solution involves giving Lights their quirks back, undoing the Rescale, and buffing the light-weight weapons Lights rely on(such as the small laser).

Or

2) overhauling the score system to fairly reward mechs who play the Objective-based game modes correctly(ie, focus on the objective, not playing every mode as Skirmish). This involves lowering damage's influence on matchscore even further, increasing the objective's influence on matchscore, restricting combat-based bonuses to Skirmish mode, heavily buffing all non-combat bonuses, and removing map and mode voting while not implementing opt-out.

I honestly would prefer that both happen, but since the "L33T Skillz" crowd would scream with rage at that, at least one has to happen. Because if things are allowed to continue on as they are now, they might as well remove Lights from game, since they won't be able to fight effectively and won't earn any money from doing anything else.

EDIT: Poll is here.

Edited by Requiemking, 05 May 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[Zigmund Freud]

I agree with you on objective-related game modes. I just hate how [Redacted] this game is sometimes. There's whole bunch of gamemodes, like the new incursion, when you have to scout if enemy is rushing base, or keep some guards to kill bunch of fast lights that would trash the base before main force RTB. But naaaaaah, mindless skirmish all day long. A vote skirmish VS basically any other mode? 99% for skirmish. Skirmish on manifold.

Edited by draiocht, 05 May 2017 - 02:17 PM.
inappropriate language, replies removed

[Nesutizale]

I have seen my fair share of lights coreing assaults and heavys. I don't think they are useless.

[Requiemking]

Nesutizale, on 05 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

I have seen my fair share of lights coreing assaults and heavys. I don't think they are useless.

Was that in T5? If so, then thats because the Assault/Heavy went full potato. It's a sad look at the state of the game when an entire weightclass has to rely on the enemy going full potato in order to actually accomplish anything.

[Coolant]

Requiemking, on 05 May 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

On one hand, a good portion of the community has this idea in their heads that Lights are "nothing but scouts".

They seem to be nothing but brawlers or extreme snipers. I've seen nothing else.

Quote

1) buff Lights to be capable of competing with the heavier weightclasses. This solution involves giving Lights their quirks back, undoing the Rescale, and buffing the light-weight weapons Lights rely on(such as the small laser).

You must've not seen lights in MW4:Mercs. Lights died when brawling because of instant lasers (no duration) and ballistics and missiles with no stream (like Clans currently). There were many mechs that could carry 3-4 AC10's or even 3 Cultra20's and no stream...they hit and you died. Plus, there were knockdowns in MW4. You got knocked over you died as a light.

Lights don't need any buffs in MWO...they already can run through an entire team of the enemy and escape maybe orange - that would never happen in MW4:Mercs.

If anything they should be nerfed.

Edited by Coolant, 05 May 2017 - 11:00 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Coolant, on 05 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Lights don't need any buffs in MWO...they already can run through an entire team of the enemy and escape maybe orange - that would never happen in MW4:Mercs.

If anything they should be nerfed.

Counterpoint: MW4 Mercs was a miserable multiplayer game.

[Requiemking]

Coolant, on 05 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

They seem to be nothing but brawlers or extreme snipers. I've seen nothing else.



You must've not seen lights in MW4:Mercs. Lights died when brawling because of instant lasers (no duration) and ballistics and missiles with no stream (like Clans currently). There were many mechs that could carry 3-4 AC10's or even 3 Cultra20's and no stream...they hit and you died. Plus, there were knockdowns in MW4. You got knocked over you died as a light.

Lights don't need any buffs in MWO...they already can run through an entire team of the enemy and escape maybe orange - that would never happen in MW4:Mercs.

If anything they should be nerfed.

Counterpoint, they can do that because people don't pay attention to them because, with the exception of two, nobody sees them as a threat.

[Y E O N N E]

Requiemking, on 05 May 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

Counterpoint, they can do that because people don't pay attention to them because, with the exception of two, nobody sees them as a threat.

Even those two, most people don't prioritize as a threat.

[Bud Crue]

Nesutizale, on 05 May 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

I have seen my fair share of lights coreing assaults and heavys. I don't think they are useless.

I believe that should read:

I have seen my fair share of Locusts, Cheetahs, an occasional well played Spider 5K, and every once in a while an Oxide or Jenner IIc coreing assaults and heavies that were dumb enough to be caught alone and in the open, so in that particular circumstance I don't think those specific lights are useless.

Just sayin.

[Grus]

Requiemking, on 05 May 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Was that in T5? If so, then thats because the Assault/Heavy went full potato. It's a sad look at the state of the game when an entire weightclass has to rely on the enemy going full potato in order to actually accomplish anything.

one; light mech's are not and should not be solo brawlers, in wolfpacks they can be deadly. Two; lights don't need a buff because they sent supposed to take hits and be able to do more damage than a med or heavy mech. Three; if you want to buff them to the level I think you're trying to go for then fine, bring back knockdown for light mech's, so if they run into a heavier mach they fall down.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 May 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Counterpoint: MW4 Mercs was a miserable multiplayer game.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK unless you are talking about the NH/UA/3PV servers or even the mission play servers because all of them were jokes

Requiemking, on 05 May 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

On the other hand, apparently the Objectives in Objective-based game modes aren't supposed to matter, so Mechs that aren't good at combat(Such as all but two Light mechs) can't earn any Cbills.

What if I told you the idea of a class that is meant to do something that isn't the focus of the game (shooting stompy robots) or directly help in that matter was probably not a good idea? Sorry but relegating an entire class to fuel cell runners, conquest cappers, etc is probably not a good idea.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[Tordin]

Bud Crue, on 05 May 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

I believe that should read:

I have seen my fair share of Locusts, Cheetahs, an occasional well played Spider 5K, and every once in a while an Oxide or Jenner IIc coreing assaults and heavies that were dumb enough to be caught alone and in the open, so in that particular circumstance I don't think those specific lights are useless.

Just sayin.

I actually see more and more wolfhounds and panthers, heck even some firestarters. Im baffled. And no, not in tier 5.. There just Cheetas & murdering new pilots with alt accounts it seems

[Wintersdark]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 May 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Counterpoint: MW4 Mercs was a miserable multiplayer game.

This is what I'm thinking every single time I see someone reference MW4 here.

There's some INSANE rose colored glasses going on all over the place in regards to that.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

What if I told you the idea of a class that is meant to do something that isn't the focus of the game (shooting stompy robots) or directly help in that matter was probably not a good idea? Sorry but relegating an entire class to fuel cell runners, conquest cappers, etc is probably not a good idea.

I'm torn. In some ways, I'd like to see a world where that stuff has a real purpose.

But the reality in MWO is that blowing up robbits is what determines games, and that is the only thing that ultimately matters. Everything else is to some degree or other a waste of time.

It's self reinforcing, though: We don't have anything but direct combat ability, because direct combat ability is all that matters, and direct combat ability is all that matters because for the most part we just have direct combat. Sure, there's other game modes, but winning via those requirements is either tedious as all get up (everyone has those great Assault matches where the teams missed each other (deliberately or otherwise) then just sat on bases till one side won... or counterproductive (run off and cap on conquest, and you lose in combat... then the winners in combat just kill the remaining mechs and easily cap.

But... On the other hand, it's extraordinarily hard to make objective based game modes without substantial changes. Respawn is the normal way it's done (actually, I really love the FP implementation of Conquest) but simple respawn is tremendously gamey and immersion breaking (Yes, I get this is a contentious topic, lets not go there). There's no simple answers beyond that, really.

It's a very difficult game design quandry.

Say PGI increases mission objective rewards dramatically, as per the poll. This doesn't really help lights in particular as everyone can do that, it just means you have that guy in the Direwolf hauling a fuel cell instead of shooting at stuff. This is not an improvement.

You can see this happen in previous instances of reward revamps, like when they buffed "scouting" tools like NARC/TAG. You just had people slapping TAG on their brawler assaults to reap extra rewards. Then they still get the "scouting" rewards AND the high-damage rewards, and lights still suffer respectively.

*sighs*

so, really, in MWO as it is, combat is the only option.

[Yogge Mothi]

Requiemking, on 05 May 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

On the other hand, apparently the Objectives in Objective-based game modes aren't supposed to matter, so Mechs that aren't good at combat(Such as all but two Light mechs) can't earn any Cbills.

Yeah, I just played an Assault game where my team made it to the enemy base, could have won by capping, and chose to turn around and engage the enemy because they wanted a higher match score. We ended up getting slaughtered. There's something definitely wrong with the objective rewards in this game to promote this behavior.

[Lehmund]

Three words: Role Based Combat

According to Sarna:
- Lights were often used as harassers, scouts and hit & run mechs, or used in tight spaces (cities) against smaller targets i.e. infantry etc...). IMO, they should definitively keep that role and yeah, if a slow assault is isolated, he should get wrecked by a light or at least heavily damaged or distracted (see harassed) while the rest of the team is busy.

- Mediums were used most often as fast support mechs to the main line. Used to cover flanks and to flank, harass and add their firepower in the right spots where it was needed.

- Heavy mechs were main line mechs. Tank damage while dishing it out, unless they are specialized into some very specific role of course (long range missiles etc...).

- Assaults depending on loadout and speed were either line mechs along with the Heavies or support mechs when slower to support an advance or block one. Support also includes mega tank spearheading etc...

I'm no MW fanboy but I play my mechs based on what they are useful for, which means most of my mechs play as above as part of an organized team including my lights. A very few of my lights are kitted for killing heavier mechs if isolated, but they are not the norm.

I would certainly love it if PGI would provide different weight class' Skill Trees some bonuses that focus further each weight class' main Role in combat and of course give proper compensation for Objective completion vs destruction of opposing mechs.

They've already started playing with that some. Hoping for some more rewards tweaking.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 05 May 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

But... On the other hand, it's extraordinarily hard to make objective based game modes without substantial changes.

You are also ignoring another elephant in the room with regards to this discussion, the problem with destroyable objectives and how it encourages light rushing to do just that, destroy the objective. This is why good objective game modes don't really have them (CP and payload maps in TF2/Overwatch). Respawns won't fix that issue either.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[Zigmund Freud]

Wintersdark, on 05 May 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm torn. In some ways, I'd like to see a world where that stuff has a real purpose.

But the reality in MWO is that blowing up robbits is what determines games, and that is the only thing that ultimately matters. Everything else is to some degree or other a waste of time.

It's self reinforcing, though: We don't have anything but direct combat ability, because direct combat ability is all that matters, and direct combat ability is all that matters because for the most part we just have direct combat. Sure, there's other game modes, but winning via those requirements is either tedious as all get up (everyone has those great Assault matches where the teams missed each other (deliberately or otherwise) then just sat on bases till one side won... or counterproductive (run off and cap on conquest, and you lose in combat... then the winners in combat just kill the remaining mechs and easily cap.

But... On the other hand, it's extraordinarily hard to make objective based game modes without substantial changes. Respawn is the normal way it's done (actually, I really love the FP implementation of Conquest) but simple respawn is tremendously gamey and immersion breaking (Yes, I get this is a contentious topic, lets not go there). There's no simple answers beyond that, really.

It's a very difficult game design quandry.

Say PGI increases mission objective rewards dramatically, as per the poll. This doesn't really help lights in particular as everyone can do that, it just means you have that guy in the Direwolf hauling a fuel cell instead of shooting at stuff. This is not an improvement.

You can see this happen in previous instances of reward revamps, like when they buffed "scouting" tools like NARC/TAG. You just had people slapping TAG on their brawler assaults to reap extra rewards. Then they still get the "scouting" rewards AND the high-damage rewards, and lights still suffer respectively.

*sighs*

so, really, in MWO as it is, combat is the only option.

I would disagree. Partially. Yes, the game is about shoting stompy robots, but objective-centered games are not about delivering fuel cells, they are still about shoting robots, but make it a bit more interesting. I'm often piloting lights or light mediums, and it's awesome to fight other lights on the middle capture point, intercept fuel cells, or return to base to defend it from enemy lights. And scouting or spotting. It is fun and part of a game.
24/7 skirmish on the other hand is stupid meat grinder IMO, people would just bring 12 heavy/assaults if they could.
And please don't say that other game modes are about runing fuel cells or trashing bases. It's still about shoting robots, in lot of incursions or assaults or captions we end up with one side wiped out completely, and in lots there's like 3-4 mechs left on losing, so fat guys get their brawl in 95% of the time. But it makes MWO less boring. And it does give lights and mediums more action, and I mean fighting, not capping or fuel shipping.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 05 May 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

2) overhauling the score system to fairly reward mechs who play the Objective-based game modes correctly(ie, focus on the objective, not playing every mode as Skirmish). This involves lowering damage's influence on matchscore even further, increasing the objective's influence on matchscore, restricting combat-based bonuses to Skirmish mode, heavily buffing all non-combat bonuses, and removing map and mode voting while not implementing opt-out.

I understand the intentions that you and others have with this popular suggestion, but it's not just about payouts. It's about winning. Even if you made damage/kills have little to no payout at all, they would still help you win far more than objectives do most of the time.

It doesn't matter how much you get paid if you lose.

Approximately equal rewards is something I do want, but don't expect it to fix gameplay imbalances. C-Bills and XP have no impact on combat gameplay; They only play a role in mechlab progression and content gating.

Edited by FupDup, 05 May 2017 - 01:44 PM.

[Zigmund Freud]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

You are also ignoring another elephant in the room with regards to this discussion, the problem with destroyable objectives and how it encourages light rushing to do just that, destroy the objective. This is why good objective game modes don't really have them (CP and payload maps in TF2/Overwatch). Respawns won't fix that issue either.

Not the case in MWO. In assault mode capping takes a lot of time, so usually it's used just to divide enemy team, and cappers either run away or get rect by soon arrived enemy lights/meds.
In incursion trashing the base takes time, especially with lights' limited firepower, and turrets (also I think they should probably buff the turrets, like with giving them lrm5s, as it used to me long time ago). And even if you team is a crowd of angry orks who just run forward all togeather, without leaving anybody somewhere close to base to def, without scouting, and without activating the radar, you still usually have time to sand back your lights or meds to kill the attackers. On my memory only like 2 or 3 incursions ended by lights who rushed the base, and even then it was just because we were surprisingly dumb bunch of pugs who didn't cooperate in any way.