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#21 Jep Jorgensson

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 05:52 PM

The main reason why the Clans are winning is because Clan Smoke Jaguar happens to be loaded with a few big and well known merc units that are enabling them to run away with it (at least 3 of their Top 5 units are mercs). If you look at the faction leaderboards, the overall Top 5 ranking right now is:

1. Clan Smoke Jaguar

2. House Liao

3. House Marik

4. Clan Jade Falcon

5. Clan Ghost Bear

So right after the Smoke Jaguars, you find two IS houses. If Clans were OP like you guys are suggesting, then it would be all four of the Clans and then the IS, but that is not what we are seeing. Besides, Clan Smoke Jaguar has no better tech than the rest of the Clans (in case you guys have not noticed) who all lag far behind them as well.

If you look closer at the ranking individual factions, you will see a lot of merc units in the Top 5's, not just loyalists. If it was purely IS loyalists vs Clan loyalists, then things would be different (Clan Ghost Bear would be in the lead since we have the best and most dedicated loyalists).

So there you have it. If you want to complain about PGI springing this on us at the last minute with no warning, go ahead (they certainly earned it). If you want to complain about getting beat because there happened to be more merc units fighting for the Clans when they dropped it on everyone, then I will not stop you (whatever, personally). But do not blame this on the Clans being "OP". We are no stronger than we were a month ago at all whatsoever. So either blame someone else or at least try to get good without downloading your skills (only the lowest of the low would do that).

All that aside, anyone else notice how this started before we could take Terra again when we are so close and that the map will be reset afterwards, thereby making it near impossible to take it in the time remaining before the Civil War update?

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 08 May 2017 - 05:59 PM.


#22 David Sumner

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:45 PM

View PostFREDtheROLF, on 08 May 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:


Sorry I don't know what you are using while doing Scout-Missions.
As an IS team of 4 or even 3 you should loose only one out of five matches.
The only way clanners can win if they gather intel and hide. If they come to the fight IS will win.

The trick is to use the right mechs and the right tactic.
I would recommend something with an AC20 and focus on Novas and Huntsmans.

This will result in this


4xSRM6 + ECM Griffin
But .. PUG, no teams, rarely any comms despite my attempts.

#23 Mr Salty Silva

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:39 AM

View PostFREDtheROLF, on 08 May 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:


The only way clanners can win if they gather intel and hide. If they come to the fight IS will win.



What?
A Splat Pakhet (4 SRM6+A and 4 SRM4+A) can output 80 damage alpha. Granted its got ghost heat but you can get around that. Coupled with a Hunchback with double gauss (and a skilled pilot) you got a nasty one two knockout punch. Clan can easily fight on Scout just as IS can.

View PostDavid Sumner, on 08 May 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:


4xSRM6 + ECM Griffin
But .. PUG, no teams, rarely any comms despite my attempts.


Aff, unless you play with your unit or have microphone and a strong personality. Posted Image

#24 David Sumner

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM

View PostProject Tumbler, on 09 May 2017 - 12:39 AM, said:


What?
A Splat Pakhet (4 SRM6+A and 4 SRM4+A) can output 80 damage alpha. Granted its got ghost heat but you can get around that. Coupled with a Hunchback with double gauss (and a skilled pilot) you got a nasty one two knockout punch. Clan can easily fight on Scout just as IS can.



Aff, unless you play with your unit or have microphone and a strong personality. Posted Image


EDIT: 80? Well these goes someone I saw denying 1 shot kills on assaults by clan mechs because you couldn't get over 50 in an alpha.

Yeah, my experience is mainly running into ECM Streak crows.

BTW: Exactly HOW would I get to CHOOSE to go up against Novas and Huntsmen?
I mean, god forbid that almost sounds like someone expects the clans to have individualised mech production limiting access to different mech classes Posted Image


This will leg a streak crow pretty good, but unless you happen to have at least 3 of you in the same place, you are pretty much guaranteed to be toast after at best one kill.

And to be honest, CW seems to have almost as bad a problem with DC's affecting the match outcome as QP.

Edited by David Sumner, 09 May 2017 - 01:39 AM.


#25 ColorOfMagic

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:19 AM

View PostDavid Sumner, on 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:


EDIT: 80? Well these goes someone I saw denying 1 shot kills on assaults by clan mechs because you couldn't get over 50 in an alpha.

You can easily get over 50 alpha dmg. Look at the missle clan jenner. Not saying that the build is good or anyhting just saying that it is possible.
JR7-IIC

#26 Jep Jorgensson

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 09:27 AM

View PostDavid Sumner, on 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yeah, my experience is mainly running into ECM Streak crows.


What are you talking about? The Stormcrow does not have ECM. None of its variants have that. The only 55-tonner that does is your Griffin 2N.

#27 David Sumner

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 11:44 AM

View PostJep Jorgensson, on 09 May 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:


What are you talking about? The Stormcrow does not have ECM. None of its variants have that. The only 55-tonner that does is your Griffin 2N.


Hmm. Been over a year since I was paying attention. Clan medium scout, ECM, loaded with Streaks, looks like a Stormcrow?

#28 Mistriever

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:44 PM

Yes, David, No Stormcrow carries ECM...not to mention we are limited to 50 tons in Scouting matches and have been for months, so no Stormcrows in Scouting matches period. It's all Huntsman and Novas to counter all the IS mediums...and neither of those 'mechs can carry ECM either. Biggest 'mech we can bring to a scouting match with ECM is a Shadowcat and it's limited to 3 Streaks. Last match someone complained to me about Streak boats, we had one guy with Streaks to deal with any Locusts...I burned the guy who complained afterwards with SPLs since he was kind enough to stand in place without torso twisting. Amazing how easy it is to kill a 'mech that doesn't move or torso twist...

#29 PFC Carsten

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 01:01 PM

View PostDavid Sumner, on 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:


EDIT: 80? Well these goes someone I saw denying 1 shot kills on assaults by clan mechs because you couldn't get over 50 in an alpha.


If you meant me: The context was pinpoint damage to one location, implicitly with Gauss/PPC-combos. Your memory needs a little refresher it seems, especially also regarding the below.

View PostDavid Sumner, on 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

[color=#959595]Yeah, my experience is mainly running into ECM Streak crows.[/color]

Check your facts please.

#30 David Sumner

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:08 AM

View PostPFC Carsten, on 09 May 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

If you meant me: The context was pinpoint damage to one location, implicitly with Gauss/PPC-combos. Your memory needs a little refresher it seems, especially also regarding the below. Check your facts please.


Probably.
Much like you failed to note above where I said it's been about a year since I bother paying any attention to it?
Your implicit assumption was Gauss/PPC, that might or might not be valid, but I didn't see anyone else either confirming or denying your statement.

#31 David Sumner

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:15 AM

View PostGI Journalist, on 08 May 2017 - 03:56 AM, said:

The data from this event is likely to demonstrate that Faction Play is still inherently flawed. Quirks allow the IS to be competitive with certain optimized builds, but when the general population participates and determines the outcome of a planet, the Clan tech advantage is decisive.

Mind you, I'm having fun, but House Liao is accustomed to being the underdog.


Mmm.
People don't seem to think about the fact that it doesn't matter if 99% of clan builds are worse than IS ones (or vice versa). As long as one side holds THE top spot or two for a weight class, it rules for that weight class, and if one side holds most of the weight classes that way, then it rules regardless.

I also note that it is incredibly difficult to actually balance this. And further that PGI have crippled their ability to do so in a number of ways, by insisting on things like "same number on each side", or "Mercs can sign up for both IS and Clans" because those eliminate some potentially viable social methods of balancing things out.

Hell, applying drop bidding on the side of the Clans would probably go a long way to allowing the humans involved to auto correcting it. Though that probably requires a stable and large online population to work,

#32 Thieu

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:17 AM

First time posting. Felt something had to be said. I recently joined CW and have been facerolled all except one time.
I am no expert, having played on an on/off basis, but am not bad, having played for a few years now.
In CW, the effectiveness of your team is multiplied, as any poor player now gives you multiple dead-weight mechs on your team. While not the end of the world, it does make your success rate depend less on your own ability, when this game is meant to be competitive.
Then there is the meta, where some mech builds are simply worthless, and not everyone wants to laser vomit all the time. Some people wanna have fun, and I respect that, but it costs you again at the end of the day.

I am not going to shed "Clan OP" tears. Clans ARE MEANT to be OP. They rolled over the IS for how long before they were stopped. IS could not stand up to Clans in a fight. End of story.
However, if you want to maintain Clan superiority as it is lore, then (at least in CW), clans should drop less mechs, as is lore. At least try dropping two stars vs three lances.

Also worth noting is that the Clans had other disadvantages which could be implemented. Most obvious is melee. Sure you have to get close, but being hit by an Atlas who decided to grab a tree frikken hurts. (Add TSM and it gets even more crazy)

I like Clan tech, and generally go for at least mix tech when playing TT. Clan FF, Endo and XL are great.
I bought a few clan mechs myself, because I like them, and only joined CW recently because I hate being locked to one set of mechs.
Balance is tricky, given that the original game was never made for real time combat. I get that.

As I understand it thus far, both of these are lacking due to lack of programming capability/availability from PGI. People aren't there anymore who worked on things etc. Life happens.

In the case of the current event, though, this is made worse. As you can see above, people can actually manage to have a number of good drops, but the faction overall still loses. This really does not build much encouragement. Complaints everywhere can't simply be unfounded.

The rankings don't meant much to me. Look at the tug of war. It's almost always below 15% for IS.

So.. why then have an event that has the reward requirements that this one does?
The system has obvious shortcomings. If you can't fix it, at least don't exacerbate it.
My suggestion? Change the event to have it that participants get rewards for participation instead of winning.
I.E. IS and Clanners get the same rewards for gaining 400 Match Score in a day. Whether it be the "winning" or "losing" amount, or something else entirely, doesn't bother me much, just try to make it more rewarding.

As it stands, I can't help but feel that running this event was actually a bad move.

#33 Mr Salty Silva

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:42 AM

View PostThieu, on 10 May 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

I am not going to shed "Clan OP" tears. Clans ARE MEANT to be OP. They rolled over the IS for how long before they were stopped. IS could not stand up to Clans in a fight. End of story.
However, if you want to maintain Clan superiority as it is lore, then (at least in CW), clans should drop less mechs, as is lore. At least try dropping two stars vs three lances.

Also worth noting is that the Clans had other disadvantages which could be implemented. Most obvious is melee. Sure you have to get close, but being hit by an Atlas who decided to grab a tree frikken hurts. (Add TSM and it gets even more crazy)


No disrespect friend, but that came close to those tear sheds you were talking about Posted Image . But joking aside, back to the topic.
Since PGI is following the tabletop rules, we do know Clan by lore had better equipment at that time and the whole conflict focused on pushing them back despite this advantage.
Of course this will affect the game since there is always an inherent disparity between techs. This is why the quirk system was implemented and then extended to make obsolete mechs work (e.g. Summoner/Warhawk). But right now the techs are way more close than they were a year back. That much we can agree on.

View PostThieu, on 10 May 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:


In the case of the current event, though, this is made worse. As you can see above, people can actually manage to have a number of good drops, but the faction overall still loses. This really does not build much encouragement. Complaints everywhere can't simply be unfounded.

The rankings don't meant much to me. Look at the tug of war. It's almost always below 15% for IS.


IS have had good drops but then again so has clan. The problem is most people are analysing the game balance status through an event bar, which is by far the worth method of assessing the game's flaws. A multitude of reason can explain the Clan superiority in this event. Funny enough one of those has been explained by Jep already on this thread.
Population on each faction, Skill differences and even times of the day can affect this (I noticed that around GMT +00:00 IS tends to have at least 30 to 45% control, most of the time).
Its not inherently technology difference, that's been the escape goat for way too long.

Long story short, CW is flawed i agree. But a bar in a random event isn't going to tell you why.
Without going over the event data, any form explanation given is mere and utter speculation, i'm afraid.


View PostDavid Sumner, on 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:


EDIT: 80? Well these goes someone I saw denying 1 shot kills on assaults by clan mechs because you couldn't get over 50 in an alpha.



Clan can't one shot, not because of the damage (Assaults can do 95 damage alpha well) but because the duration of the laser is high or you are shooting an AC/20 that spreads damage, thanks to that burst fire. Most pilots will just hide, run or torso twist.
Also you can't get 100 damage Assaults with viable builds. Builds that do that kind of damage, either overheat in 2 secs, break ghost heat or don't have enough ammo/heatsinks. So Mr. LTDominator assessment is quite incorrect in my opinion.


View PostDavid Sumner, on 09 May 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:


BTW: Exactly HOW would I get to CHOOSE to go up against Novas and Huntsmen?
I mean, god forbid that almost sounds like someone expects the clans to have individualised mech production limiting access to different mech classes




1) Griffin 2N (XL280 + 3 ASRM4 + 2 LLs + ECM)
2) Griffin 3M (XL300 + 4 ASRM4 + 2 MPLs)
3) Blackjack 1X (XL 275 + 2 LPLs + 4 MPLs)
4) Trebuchet 7K (XL 275 + 2 ML + 2 SRM4 + 1 AC/10)
5) Bushwacker BSW-P1 [AKA Splatwacker] (XL300 + 6 SRM6)
6) Bushwacker BSW-X1 [AKA Riot Wacker] (XL270 + 1 LBX-10 + 3 ASRM6)

Edited by Project Tumbler, 10 May 2017 - 01:29 AM.


#34 Thieu

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 01:55 AM

View PostProject Tumbler, on 10 May 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:


IS have had good drops but then again so has clan. The problem is most people are analysing the game balance status through an event bar, which is by far the worth method of assessing the game's flaws. A multitude of reason can explain the Clan superiority in this event. Funny enough one of those has been explained by Jep already on this thread.
Population on each faction, Skill differences and even times of the day can affect this (I noticed that around GMT +00:00 IS tends to have at least 30 to 45% control, most of the time).
Its not inherently technology difference, that's been the escape goat for way too long.

Long story short, CW is flawed i agree. But a bar in a random event isn't going to tell you why.
Without going over the event data, any form explanation given is mere and utter speculation, i'm afraid.



Sure, but at the "end of the day" (lol pun), there is a flaw in the idea, somewhere.
If there are different time zones that play at different times, their successes and failures are all added to the final score, no?
Unless there are areas that have better players than others, and the score shifts dramatically one way or another during the hours that they're awake.
Uneven populations should be dealt with by the fact that it's always 12v12. Too many players on one side? It sucks, but then the queue is just longer.
Skill differences happen. If all of the skilled players are on one side, then yes, major victories are expected regardless of balance. However one should not expect that to be the case (tech level scapegoat again? Everyone heading for clans because the equipment is better? Another rabbit hole to follow).

Even then, at least 35 to 45%, but not really over that much, right? Or rarely so?

As you say, this is speculation, on the other hand.. Should things like this not be accounted for when they plan events? Should planning not attempt to predict shortfalls and make efforts to fox them?

The tug of war is a good measure of who wins or loses, or it would not be used.
If it isn't, then that'd be another mistake on PGI's part for this event.
That being said, if the bar was a bit closer to the middle, then one could agree that the difference would be to skill etc.
A massive overrun of like 80%? Either IS players are utter rubbish, or there is something wrong.

People agree something is wrong with CW. That is related, but not my issue. The issue is that the event is run in this way, using a known to be problematic CW system.
As I see it, this event was foolish to have run as they did, and they should make an effort to fix it.
Pity I can't switch to Clan during the event.

#35 Mr Salty Silva

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:46 AM

View PostThieu, on 10 May 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:


People agree something is wrong with CW. That is related, but not my issue. The issue is that the event is run in this way, using a known to be problematic CW system.
As I see it, this event was foolish to have run as they did, and they should make an effort to fix it.
Pity I can't switch to Clan during the event.


Again, a more depth analysis is needed to resolve this balance issues.
Riot Games, popular due to League of Legends, takes a very mathematical and scientific approach to this problem, usually reviewing hours and days worth of in-game data to support any claims of imbalance and the source of such problem. Piranha games could learn from such approach.

Nevertheless, this discussion won't be solving anything (albeit the polite discussion of ideas is a welcome change from the old "rage and point figures" type of threads). Hopefully something Piranha games investigates the source of this stomp. Although i am "clan-born", i do not like games to be this uneven. Close games and events tend to be much more enjoyable when you either win or lose by those 2 or 3% rather than winning in a landslide or getting crushed into oblivion.

Edited by Project Tumbler, 10 May 2017 - 04:47 AM.


#36 PFC Carsten

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:51 AM

View PostDavid Sumner, on 10 May 2017 - 12:08 AM, said:


Probably.
Much like you failed to note above where I said it's been about a year since I bother paying any attention to it?
Your implicit assumption was Gauss/PPC, that might or might not be valid, but I didn't see anyone else either confirming or denying your statement.

Clan PP(FL)D is Dual-Gauss/ER-PPC. Pinpoint and ST as well as massive 100 alpha is what is being mentioned in the post I quoted in the first place and therefore obviously my reference. If it was not that obvious for others as it seemed to me, I apologize for any aggressiveness in my tone.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 10 May 2017 - 05:54 AM.


#37 Kotev

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 01:26 AM

IS mechs are better just need to find the right builds. Go to http://metamechs.com/ and find your mech.

#38 David Sumner

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 02:22 AM

View PostProject Tumbler, on 10 May 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:



1) Griffin 2N (XL280 + 3 ASRM4 + 2 LLs + ECM)
2) Griffin 3M (XL300 + 4 ASRM4 + 2 MPLs)
3) Blackjack 1X (XL 275 + 2 LPLs + 4 MPLs)
4) Trebuchet 7K (XL 275 + 2 ML + 2 SRM4 + 1 AC/10)
5) Bushwacker BSW-P1 [AKA Splatwacker] (XL300 + 6 SRM6)
6) Bushwacker BSW-X1 [AKA Riot Wacker] (XL270 + 1 LBX-10 + 3 ASRM6)


Nope, that tells me HOW to go up against them

(I use GRF-2N with ECM + 4xSRM6 BTW)

What I asked was how I could be expected to CHOOSE my opponents.
And the only way I could see to do that would be by clan, if different clans actually had different mechs.

#39 David Sumner

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 02:30 AM

View PostProject Tumbler, on 10 May 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:


Again, a more depth analysis is needed to resolve this balance issues.
Riot Games, popular due to League of Legends, takes a very mathematical and scientific approach to this problem, usually reviewing hours and days worth of in-game data to support any claims of imbalance and the source of such problem. Piranha games could learn from such approach.

Nevertheless, this discussion won't be solving anything (albeit the polite discussion of ideas is a welcome change from the old "rage and point figures" type of threads). Hopefully something Piranha games investigates the source of this stomp. Although i am "clan-born", i do not like games to be this uneven. Close games and events tend to be much more enjoyable when you either win or lose by those 2 or 3% rather than winning in a landslide or getting crushed into oblivion.


My take is that the bar is a cumulative measure (maybe until it hits the end stop anyway)
so as long as the clans win 11 matches to the IS 10, it would eventually go all blue regardless.

And as an indication of player "quality" for this event.
I boat LRMs, because until recently the combination of distance and hardware meant running high lag at low res and 25FPS (I started at 30 FPS and Med res on the same hardware)
So my drop decks are 4xLRM boats for one, and 2x LRM boats + grasshopper, bane for the other.

My bane does sweet FA, it's my filler.
My grasshopper does oh 180 to 360 damage
My WORST LRM boat usually does better than my Grasshopper.

At the moment, I can run 4 LRM boats, get 1200 to 1500 damage (well, except that match where I walked in, got backshot, walked back again and we'd capped). I also will get AT LEAST 1 solo kill.

Outside an event, I'd expect 800 to 1000 damage, and no solo kills, and probably 2-3 kills by chance.

View PostPFC Carsten, on 10 May 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

Clan PP(FL)D is Dual-Gauss/ER-PPC. Pinpoint and ST as well as massive 100 alpha is what is being mentioned in the post I quoted in the first place and therefore obviously my reference. If it was not that obvious for others as it seemed to me, I apologize for any aggressiveness in my tone.


Clan, PinPoint, uh (FL?) and I assume ST = Side Torso?
Tone is kinda hard to read :) A problem I suffer from all to frequently.

#40 Mr Salty Silva

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 03:57 AM

View PostDavid Sumner, on 11 May 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:


Nope, that tells me HOW to go up against them

(I use GRF-2N with ECM + 4xSRM6 BTW)

What I asked was how I could be expected to CHOOSE my opponents.
And the only way I could see to do that would be by clan, if different clans actually had different mechs.


That would be with weight class restrictions, rather than simply weight restrictions and even then...
But that would kind of remove the "fun factor" of scouting (running VS fighting).

And we have different mechs, some just waiting to be discovered. For example:

kit fox with purifier omnipods and ecm, a slower yet more cooler artic cheetah;
Jenner IIC (Laser Vom, Splat or a mixture of both)

View PostDavid Sumner, on 11 May 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:


My take is that the bar is a cumulative measure (maybe until it hits the end stop anyway)
so as long as the clans win 11 matches to the IS 10, it would eventually go all blue regardless.

And as an indication of player "quality" for this event.
I boat LRMs, because until recently the combination of distance and hardware meant running high lag at low res and 25FPS (I started at 30 FPS and Med res on the same hardware)
So my drop decks are 4xLRM boats for one, and 2x LRM boats + grasshopper, bane for the other.

My bane does sweet FA, it's my filler.
My grasshopper does oh 180 to 360 damage
My WORST LRM boat usually does better than my Grasshopper.

At the moment, I can run 4 LRM boats, get 1200 to 1500 damage (well, except that match where I walked in, got backshot, walked back again and we'd capped). I also will get AT LEAST 1 solo kill.

Outside an event, I'd expect 800 to 1000 damage, and no solo kills, and probably 2-3 kills by chance.



Clan, PinPoint, uh (FL?) and I assume ST = Side Torso?
Tone is kinda hard to read Posted Image A problem I suffer from all to frequently.


Very much dislike LRM, either playing with them or vs them.
But given your case, it's understandable at the very least.

PPFLD = PinPoint Front Loaded Damage (PinPoint you pretty much know but Front Loaded means all damage hits at once)

Edited by Project Tumbler, 11 May 2017 - 04:03 AM.






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