953 replies to this topic

[Mycroft000]

Ed Steele, on 25 May 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

You mean the "Overwhelming" feedback from the small minority of players who actually tried it out on the test server and the people who parrot whatever their favorite streamer thinks about it on Reddit?

As someone who participated in all of the PTS sessions for the new skill tree, all I can speak to is that everyone I spoke with on the test server had variations of the same opinions.

[KingKickAss85]

Ed Steele, on 25 May 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

You mean the "Overwhelming" feedback from the small minority of players who actually tried it out on the test server and the people who parrot whatever their favorite streamer thinks about it on Reddit?

That's the problem though. The PTS was too small of a sample size of the spectrum of players in the game. The skill tree is fine for a lot of people, others not so much. It honestly feels like if they had waited, refined it some more, rolled it out after the Civil War patch, things would be fine. They needed a lot more time to make it user friendly for what I'm going to assume is the average casual player. I will go on the record as saying it's a step in the right direction, but it feels like it was rushed way too quickly to try and wow everyone. I'm only protesting this because I feel like it can be a lot better than it is right now.

[Mycroft000]

They could easily have divided everything in the skill trees by 3 and given us 30 points per mech.

Cost everything so that the "average" player can purchase 1 node on a great match, or two okay matches, or 3 losses.

It would have made all of the benefits seem less granular and give a more noticeable effect when applied. It would have reduced the number of hours spent clicking in the mechlab, and it would have been much easier to test.

[MovinTarget]

I definetely agree on the respec cost. I can live with the 400xp per node, bit i know not everyone got 600k gxp from the refund so yeah, no probs there.

The engine decoupling is trickier, the argument is that this penalized mechs with low engine caps or forced players to sacrifice tonnage just to get agility even if they didn't want it...

...and the poor dire whale... locked engine...doomed...

By decoupling, they really do give you more options and/or give innately slow mechs hope versus ankle-biters.

[AnTi90d]

mycroft000, on 25 May 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

As someone who participated in all of the PTS sessions for the new skill tree, all I can speak to is that everyone I spoke with on the test server had variations of the same opinions.

Yeah.. we wanted to be able to run mechs without dealing with hunting down which mech had what module. The idea of a new skill system was appealing, but PGI's execution of it was and is still, horrid.

We tried to tell PGI that this wasn't ready, but PGI hates feedback that doesn't come from their beloved safe space of Twitter yes-men.

If you look at the top rated posts in the entire history of MWO's main subreddit:

https://www.reddit.c...utreachHPG/top/

Eight of the top 50 threads to ever exist in the entire history (three years of threads) of that subreddit are against PGI's version of the Skill Maze.

#1 - Anti Skill Maze
#3 - Anti Skill Maze
#7 - Anti Skill Maze
#16 - Anti Skill Maze
#26 - Solahma's Skill Tree compromise idea
#35 - Anti Skill Maze
#44 - Anti Skill Maze
#48 - Anti Skill Maze



While people were touting MWO's Steam Chart hitting the highest mark that it's hit since August of last year, on the day of the patch and the first weekend..

..the population numbers have already tanked back to where they were, before the most recent Tukayyid, with several complaints of obscene queue times in Oceanic, again..

http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#1m

..and also with thousands of dollars of preorders cancelled over it, complete with email screenshots as proof.

The Skill Maze is looking like a net loss for PGI. We tried to warn them; they didn't want to hear it.. Hell, they even went on a forum suspending rampage the Thursday before the weekend of the patch, to try and direct the conversation on the forums. The most vocal opponents of the Skill Maze were handed five day suspensions for made-up rule violations that conveniently ended several hours after the patch had already went live.

PGI has two months to think up how to salvage this situation and turn the Skill Maze into something palatable.(Personally, I'm hoping for a Save/Load function to be added to the maze, the ability to export the Saves to a file to share with other players who don't feel like fooling around with it, some form of node reorganization and maybe even a reduction in the number of total nodes in the maze.) When Civil War hits, lots of players on hiatus are coming back. If the Skill Maze is still in its current form, they'll turn right back around.

If there was ever a time in PGI's life when it needed to listen to its players, it's now. This has to come together before Civil War hits.

[KingKickAss85]

MovinTarget, on 25 May 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

I definetely agree on the respec cost. I can live with the 400xp per node, bit i know not everyone got 600k gxp from the refund so yeah, no probs there.

The engine decoupling is trickier, the argument is that this penalized mechs with low engine caps or forced players to sacrifice tonnage just to get agility even if they didn't want it...

...and the poor dire whale... locked engine...doomed...

By decoupling, they really do give you more options and/or give innately slow mechs hope versus ankle-biters.

While it is true you can potentially get the pigeon holed mechs like the dire whale up to snuff, I've always considered the locked in engine for the land as inherent risk. Gonna play the LoreWarrior here for a moment, but that's what makes clan mechs unique. Greater firepower and range, omnipods, lighter equipment and faster mechs makes them diverse from the IS. The trade off always was that you were locked in with the engine, some equipment and armor and structure slots. All of that is just how the clan engineers think. The FedCom Civil War is when the disparity between clan and IS truly is negated because the IS catches up with their tech. Personally I like piloting IS mechs more as I see them as a greater test of skill, especially if I'm running an XL engine. I know tabletop can't and won't always translate into a PC game, but sometimes I get the feeling that PGI doesn't fully understand the background information, and so they just try and wing it/fly by the seat of their pants and hope no one notices.

[Mycroft000]

I even asked for guided feedback on the last test session. I wanted them to help us give the best feedback possible. Nothing. No response of any kind. Not even from volunteer moderators.

[NocturnalBeast]

AnTi90d, on 25 May 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Yeah.. we wanted to be able to run mechs without dealing with hunting down which mech had what module. The idea of a new skill system was appealing, but PGI's execution of it was and is still, horrid.

We tried to tell PGI that this wasn't ready, but PGI hates feedback that doesn't come from their beloved safe space of Twitter yes-men.

If you look at the top rated posts in the entire history of MWO's main subreddit:

https://www.reddit.c...utreachHPG/top/

Eight of the top 50 threads to ever exist in the entire history (three years of threads) of that subreddit are against PGI's version of the Skill Maze.

#1 - Anti Skill Maze
#3 - Anti Skill Maze
#7 - Anti Skill Maze
#16 - Anti Skill Maze
#26 - Solahma's Skill Tree compromise idea
#35 - Anti Skill Maze
#44 - Anti Skill Maze
#48 - Anti Skill Maze



While people were touting MWO's Steam Chart hitting the highest mark that it's hit since August of last year, on the day of the patch and the first weekend..

..the population numbers have already tanked back to where they were, before the most recent Tukayyid, with several complaints of obscene queue times in Oceanic, again..

http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#1m

..and also with thousands of dollars of preorders cancelled over it, complete with email screenshots as proof.

The Skill Maze is looking like a net loss for PGI. We tried to warn them; they didn't want to hear it.. Hell, they even went on a forum suspending rampage the Thursday before the weekend of the patch, to try and direct the conversation on the forums. The most vocal opponents of the Skill Maze were handed five day suspensions for made-up rule violations that conveniently ended several hours after the patch had already went live.

PGI has two months to think up how to salvage this situation and turn the Skill Maze into something palatable.(Personally, I'm hoping for a Save/Load function to be added to the maze, the ability to export the Saves to a file to share with other players who don't feel like fooling around with it, some form of node reorganization and maybe even a reduction in the number of total nodes in the maze.) When Civil War hits, lots of players on hiatus are coming back. If the Skill Maze is still in its current form, they'll turn right back around.

If there was ever a time in PGI's life when it needed to listen to its players, it's now. This has to come together before Civil War hits.

Outreach has just become a "safe space" echo chamber for PGI haters who can not handle the dissenting opinions​ on the MWO forums.

[KingKickAss85]

mycroft000, on 25 May 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I even asked for guided feedback on the last test session. I wanted them to help us give the best feedback possible. Nothing. No response of any kind. Not even from volunteer moderators.

Well that right there tells you everything you need to know about the situation. They were h*ll-bent on releasing this no matter the cost. Probably due to the declining player base, but all it achieved was further alienation of more players. Not a great business model when you're in desperate need of new players and at the same time holding onto the old ones.

[MovinTarget]

I'll admit their silence is far from encouraging, at the same time we can't assume whats going on...

Sure, it could be Russ heading to the Vancouver Airport with suitcases overstuffed with money, bills spilling out...

or they could be running damage control trying to figure out how to appease those that are unhappy... Its always going to be a challenge since there is literally *no* way to please everyone.

My *guess* is them trying to figure out how to change what has already been implemented to be more generally palatable without a full rewrite. I doubt they have the free manhours for restarting from scratch.

I will reiterate for the people that keep insisting that they should have gotten it "right" or "perfect" the first time may need to reconsider the feasibiity of that logic. Even Blizzard with all its resources has constantly rewritten it's skill trees (to the point that they are waaaaay too oversimplified for my tastes... which may explain why I'm fine with this). So I won't begrudge anyone that thinks it could be better, but to say "get it right the first time...." won't happen because everyone will have their own interpretation of "get it right"

Even if they had a system that 80% of the players liked, you'd still have elements of the other 20% raising a stink, trying to make their case.

That's what people do in the court of public opinion, the forums, try to convince you they are right and its up to you to find out for yourself.

Edited by MovinTarget, 25 May 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[KingKickAss85]

MovinTarget, on 25 May 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

I'll admit their silence is far from encouraging, at the same time we can't assume whats going on...

Sure, it could be Russ heading to the Vancouver Airport with suitcases overstuffed with money, bills spilling out...

or they could be running damage control trying to figure out how to appease those that are unhappy... Its always going to be a challenge since there is literally *no* way to please everyone.

My *guess* is them trying to figure out how to change what has already been implemented to be more generally palatable without a full rewrite. I doubt they have the free manhours for restarting from scratch.

I will reiterate for the people that keep insisting that they should have gotten it "right" or "perfect" the first time may need to reconsider the feasibiity of that logic. Even Blizzard with all its resources has constantly rewritten it's skill trees (to the point that they are waaaaay too oversimplified for my tastes... which may explain why I'm fine with this). So I won't begrudge anyone that thinks it could be better, but to say "get it right the first time...." won't happen because everyone will have their own interpretation of "get it right"

Even if they had a system that 80% of the players liked, you'd still have elements of the other 20% raising a stink, trying to make their case.

That's what people do in the court of public opinion, the forums, try to convince you they are right and its up to you to find out for yourself.

You have a pretty good point there. If I've been guilty of being a "get it right the 1st time", I know that's an impossibility. It is for most any game. PGI's silence is pretty baffling, considering how much they hyped this patch. Time will eventually tell what it is they're thinking/plotting.

I do believe they may have over-shot the mark a bit and rushed the skill tree, just so they could show it off and give what was hoped to be a breathe of fresh air. My opinion is this: They could have toyed with it a little longer to get a better feel for how it could potentially impact the player base, then release it after the Civil War patch. That patch is gonna be the big one as it has to achieve the long awaited balance between Clan and IS. If it's DOA, then we may as well kiss the game goodbye at that point.

I'm just gonna keep my fingers crossed that the skill tree issue(s) can be speedily resolved. If they put tangible effort into re-working the skill tree (not creating a new system, just tweaking this one a bit) the player base will sort itself out at that point.

[Mycroft000]

I'm not assuming they could have gotten it "right" from the start. But I do feel like it's not unreasonable to think they could have taken the time to read Richard Garfield's game design book and improved on their system in very real noticeable ways.

Edited by mycroft000, 25 May 2017 - 08:12 PM.

[slide]

IMO.

I am happy with the refund system.

I am happy with the concept of the skill tree

I am not happy with the implementation of the branches of the tree. Simply put too many nodes to click and too convoluted to make quick rational decisions. It needs to be rearranged such that individual nodes give more bonus with fewer overall nodes to select. Decisions need to be more binary in their choice with out being forced to take redundant nodes.

As an example :
-reduce active nodes to 50 (about half what we have now) and limit nodes to max 20 in each branch.
-rearrange branches into a linear fashion. ie range, cooldown, heat, duration each have 10 nodes @2% along with extra nodes for xtrea ammo, guass charge etc. arrange this in a simple column formation. Gives people a choice to specialize range over DPS for example. I know I hate taking range on my srm mechs because it is largely useless, the first 3 nodes you have to take are all range related now.

I am not sure how I feel about playing at the moment, IS which I only play definitely seems to have taken a lot harder hit than the clans, maybe new tech will fix that but I don't see it right now. All I can say is I am happy HBS launches the beta next week.

[MovinTarget]

KingKickAss85, on 25 May 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

While it is true you can potentially get the pigeon holed mechs like the dire whale up to snuff, I've always considered the locked in engine for the land as inherent risk. Gonna play the LoreWarrior here for a moment, but that's what makes clan mechs unique. Greater firepower and range, omnipods, lighter equipment and faster mechs makes them diverse from the IS. The trade off always was that you were locked in with the engine, some equipment and armor and structure slots. All of that is just how the clan engineers think. The FedCom Civil War is when the disparity between clan and IS truly is negated because the IS catches up with their tech. Personally I like piloting IS mechs more as I see them as a greater test of skill, especially if I'm running an XL engine. I know tabletop can't and won't always translate into a PC game, but sometimes I get the feeling that PGI doesn't fully understand the background information, and so they just try and wing it/fly by the seat of their pants and hope no one notices.

I gave some examples, but thete are lots of mechs that have low engine caps, mostlty IS, but even some clan lights and mediums with locked engines.

Thing is, there isn't one solution as long as *all* agility is lumped together.
I can see speed/accel/deccel being functions of engine size to some degree (monster truck and race car could use the same engine with different transmissions to achieve different results), but torso twisting/torso speed?

Edited by MovinTarget, 26 May 2017 - 04:33 AM.

[MrKvola]

Many people suggested UI tweaks and improvements during the PTS sessions, including me. Now some of those improvements were mentioned in the Q&A post to be under consideration (!). I believe ideas like templates and automatic path selection are something that is:
1. not that hard to implement with the current system - i.e. they already do have a save system for the ST as they need to save the current settings for each 'mech
2. adds a LOT more useability and practicality to it
3. does not force PGI to do a full or even partial re-write of the ST implementation as it is

GSP -> C-bill conversion makes sense. Not sure why it would not be possible to implement (or why it was not implemented starting Day 1, for that matter). Pretty sure it would grant players flexibility with their resources. And again this was pointed out by many people prior to the patch.

On top of that there are 2 issues, that I identified:
1. replace the Convert XP button with the Skills button on the Home page - you can already convert XP directly from the Skills screen (and it makes more sense to do it there), and if you want to access the Skills page after a match you now need to click Mechlab -> Skills. Also, accessing the Skills page is a more often used function than invoking the Convert XP screen.
2. Once a loadout is saved on the Loadout page, the game switches to the Home page. In case you made Skill Tree adjustments and have not saved those there is no possibility to return to the Skills page without losing progress made in the Skill Tree.

I'm pretty sure that adding those features would fix which I believe are the biggest issues with the current implementation.

IMO people are not exactly angry because of the Skill Tree per se, people are angry about PGI not properly handling issues that were pointed out to them numerous times before it was implemented into the live environment.

[NocturnalBeast]

Really, though, like I said before, PGI just needs to make a generic predefined build for each "role" that could be enabled with one click as long as you had 91 SP available. Also, we should still have the ability to customize builds, so that players who take the time to do so would be rewarded by having a more efficient (for them) build.

[MrKvola]

Ed Steele, on 26 May 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

Really, though, like I said before, PGI just needs to make a generic predefined build for each "role" that could be enabled with one click as long as you had 91 SP available. Also, we should still have the ability to customize builds, so that players who take the time to do so would be rewarded by having a more efficient (for them) build.

Would it not make more sense to enable players to save say 4 presets which they set up as they like instead of predefining stuff? Everybody has slightly different preferences, it would be utterly bad if you had to change the same nodes all over after you apply a template.

Also, there is no need to "gate" the template application with 91 SPs - applying a template would just select whatever nodes you saved into it, having to add/remove nodes to reflect your SP balance would be the better way to go IMO.

And as a result, the ability to customize changes before committing to them would be an innate possibility within the system.

[Mycroft000]

I am going to preface this by saying that I know it's not going to happen, but I'd like to be able to enter the testing grounds from the Mechlab before saving load outs and skill sets so they can be tested before spending the c-bills.

Again I know this won't happen, but it would be nice.

[MovinTarget]

mycroft000, on 26 May 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

I am going to preface this by saying that I know it's not going to happen, but I'd like to be able to enter the testing grounds from the Mechlab before saving load outs and skill sets so they can be tested before spending the c-bills.

Again I know this won't happen, but it would be nice.

This.

[NocturnalBeast]

mycroft000, on 26 May 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

I am going to preface this by saying that I know it's not going to happen, but I'd like to be able to enter the testing grounds from the Mechlab before saving load outs and skill sets so they can be tested before spending the c-bills.

Again I know this won't happen, but it would be nice.

Yes, that is how it should be, but then you would be much less likely to want to spend MC to respec your Mech and that would be bad for MC sales now wouldn't it?