67 replies to this topic

[Natred]

What do you guys think of the percentage armor hp stuff.. like the atlas will have a much larger health pool that the dire wolf.

[mogs01gt]

Khobai, on 15 May 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

this skill tree is the last nail in the coffin for brawling IMO
between the cooldown nerfs and agility nerfs brawlers are getting bent over
plus the increased armor/structure makes PPFLD that much better than dps weapons

I thought the nail was inserted like a year ago?

[Scyther]

@Natred:
As various people have pointed out in other threads, firepower and mobility trump armor in most situations. The armor bonuses are 1 or maybe 2 extra weapon shots from a decent mech, and then they're gone. If the opposing mech can get a little more mobility, a little more alpha, a little more range, these are things that apply continuously throughout the match.

The primary benefit of bonus armor is that it allows you to make 1 more positioning mistake per match before you die.

Edited by MadBadger, 16 May 2017 - 06:16 AM.

[Johnny Z]

MadBadger, on 16 May 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

@Natred:
As various people have pointed out in other threads, firepower and mobility trump armor in most situations. The armor bonuses are 1 or maybe 2 extra weapon shots from a decent mech, and then they're gone. If the opposing mech can get a little more mobility, a little more alpha, a little more range, these are things that apply continuously throughout the match.

The primary benefit of bonus armor is that it allows you to make 1 more positioning mistake per match before you die.

Yep that's pretty much it but that can be enough to win a duel.

Foresight can be better than mobility as well. So there are lots of aspects to this.

But yep mobility and firepower "Advantage" is best, if it is an advantage and not evened out, in which case armor comes out on top.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 May 2017 - 06:51 AM.

[Natred]

Ok makes sence... what about the srms getting critical damage? Thats going to be nice

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 15 May 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

plus the increased armor/structure makes PPFLD that much better than dps weapons

Ummm, what? Actually it makes DPS weapons better because it means you aren't as much in danger of taking critical damage which means you can stand to move into positions to where you can abuse your superior DPS (by pushing for example). The ability to drop 1/2 mechs in a push is exactly what keeps long range PPFLD in play and adding durability across the board makes that even harder. TTK and viability of various ranged strats are tied directly together (higher TTK means shorter ranged starts get stronger).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 May 2017 - 08:12 AM.

[Coolant]

not interested in whatever players think is "meta" (improper use of the word, but it's established now). The Skill Tree will allow those that can think outside the box to build their "character" the way they want, regardless of how well it will do. We can tweak it how we want, have different specs for variants, and every game for a loooong time can be different as we change nodes here and there.

And, I bet, there are gonna be skill tree specs that are outside the "meta" that will do great and I look forward to finding them.

Edited by Coolant, 16 May 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Gyrok, on 15 May 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

So...we await a new meta.

The new meta will be mobility, operations, and sensors as much as you can get for what you want.

This means there will literally be no choices...

You have to be able to move to keep up. Mobility is a flat out requirement.

You have to be able to track the enemy and remove yourself from their sensors. Sensors is a must.

You have to be able to fire sustained...so you need heat containment, cool running, and all of that to even be on the same level as others. Operations is a must.

So, effectively...this works out to be a flat nerf to current mechs.

Those of you thinking that you were going to load up on armor/structure buffs, or firepower buffs...have fun with that while the rest of your team leaves your mech behind and kills everything before you get there. When you do get shot with your armor structure buffs, good luck torso twisting without any mobility skills, and once you finally get to aim, good luck doing anything with it after your first volley with no cooling.

I am going to try this patch and see what happens, but this is not going to be the choice anyone thinks it will be...I may put this game back on the back burner for a while after this.

I can hear the potatoes screaming everything OP now because they will have no clue about why other mechs are so much more effective against them than they are. "Why is that clan mech shooting twice when I cannot shoot more than once...? Clans OP!"

Whatever...I guess the potatoes are getting what they thought they wanted.

Most comments like this seem to me to come from players who are saying "My current Build will be disadvantaged with the new Skill Tree".

Of course they will. What people will have to do is figure out a new build that's effective in the new skill tree. Eventually some new form of "meta" will arise within variants, and lots of people will make cookie cutter builds to match.

I agree that what will happen is people are going to make choices and have to sacrifice some aspect of their "meta" in order to benefit in another area. Not everyone will agree on whats better. Some because they have a different play style, others because they are better in some aspect of the game in a bigger/smaller chassis, etc.

I'm hoping for more variation and more hard choices. Hopefully this will give it to us.

Naturally, if you are a tier 1 meta-god, cookie cutter builder you will probably be upset with this because you want "MAX EVERYTHING". Just keep in mind that everyone will be making hard choices too, not just you and that might level the playing field a bit.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ummm, what? Actually it makes DPS weapons better

nope. having more armor/structure makes PPFLD weapons better

because PPFLD are better at hitting one location while dps weapons spread damage around

[Cy Mitchell]

The fact that I see threads discussing the value of the various Skill Classes like Operations, Firepower, Sensor, Auxiliary versus Survivability and Mobility tells me that the choices we are presented with are much more than an illusion.

I know for a fact that this Skill Tree gives me the opportunity to make a lot more choices than the old one ever did.

The only people who will be pigeonholed are the ones that chase the meta and then only after someone figures it out for them and post it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

because PPFLD are better at hitting one location while dps weapons spread damage around

That doesn't matter, because hitting that one location is harder when you have to do it 2-3 extra times compared to before, you are naturally spreading because you have to take more shots to kill something already. Not to mention coordinated pushes become much more powerful, again because you it takes more shots to bring something down which HAS to happen to repel a push successfully. The more health something has, the more DPS becomes an important thing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 May 2017 - 08:30 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That doesn't matter, because hitting that one location is harder when you have to do it 2-3 extra times compared to before

no its not. if anything its easier with the agility nerf. plus the velocity buffs.

and the fact that dps weapons got their cooldowns massively nerfed

PPFLD will be even more meta than it was before.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Ced Riggs, on 16 May 2017 - 03:56 AM, said:

Accodring to the forums, there is about 7.83 different metas, which are all going to be the one and only meta. None of those 7.83 metas are the Goose-Pepsi meta we are currently seeing, and most of those meta foretelling posts are about things that either were meta ages ago, or are perceived as meta because people got blapped by a certain mech once or twice.

For example, the Kodiak UAC spam is meta, the Quad UAC2 Timmy Wolf is meta, Octa UAC2 Direwhales are meta, and 12 SPL Novas are dominating scouting in Faction War, according to the forums. Meanwhile, Ice Ferrets run Scouting, and Goose Pepsi Nighgyrs bump shoulders with dakka 'Rauder IICs, but what do I know. According to Metamechs, last updated fivethousand earth rotations ago, alot of things NOT mentioned on the forums are meta.

Meanwhile, consumables are going to be new meta, firepower is OP (or UP, but UAC jam chance is OP, I never know which one it is, thread to thread). So yeah, take your pick. Everything is meta, everything is getting nerfed, and the thing you chose will not be meta, but the thing someone else talks about is totally going to be meta, also 5 air strikes is happening, the sky is falling and Jeb Bush is gonna run in 2018 2020.

When have UAC2s or AC2s ever been meta? From what I can see, ER/PPCs, Gauss, and Large Pulse have been tops for quite some time.

-k

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

no its not. if anything its easier with the agility nerf. plus the velocity buffs.

You realize those same things seriously help DPS weapons as well.....?

[Thorqemada]

Imho the urgency of the "aux" skill tree is underestimated as to me it looks like it becomes a necessity to use consumables to the maximum.

[R Valentine]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

The assumption seems to be that speed will suffer "a lot", when really, agility will be hit. I don't agree with your assumption. Speed will not change noticeably, and with the introduction of the LFE, IS speed will even increase.

If by "increase" you mean decrease, then yea, IS speed will go down, because LFE weigh more than our current XLs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

and the fact that dps weapons got their cooldowns massively nerfed

What DPS weapon got nerfed outside of cUAC2s?

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

PPFLD will be even more meta than it was before.

This is probably true given the strength of the Night Gyr still, but dakka hasn't really been apart of the meta for a while now so its not like anything will really change.

[KingCobra]

Gyrok, on 15 May 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

So...we await a new meta.

The new meta will be mobility, operations, and sensors as much as you can get for what you want.

This means there will literally be no choices...

You have to be able to move to keep up. Mobility is a flat out requirement.

You have to be able to track the enemy and remove yourself from their sensors. Sensors is a must.

You have to be able to fire sustained...so you need heat containment, cool running, and all of that to even be on the same level as others. Operations is a must.

So, effectively...this works out to be a flat nerf to current mechs.

Those of you thinking that you were going to load up on armor/structure buffs, or firepower buffs...have fun with that while the rest of your team leaves your mech behind and kills everything before you get there. When you do get shot with your armor structure buffs, good luck torso twisting without any mobility skills, and once you finally get to aim, good luck doing anything with it after your first volley with no cooling.

I am going to try this patch and see what happens, but this is not going to be the choice anyone thinks it will be...I may put this game back on the back burner for a while after this.

I can hear the potatoes screaming everything OP now because they will have no clue about why other mechs are so much more effective against them than they are. "Why is that clan mech shooting twice when I cannot shoot more than once...? Clans OP!"

Whatever...I guess the potatoes are getting what they thought they wanted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off pal your a POS for blaming players and calling them potatoes next it was your grand masters the units that wanted this new skill tree not everyone else.

I don't think anyone but the units that pal around with Russ in game even knew this skill tree was coming where are the topics and posts stating anyone even wanted a new skill tree in the first place? Exactly there were none until it was announced and the whole worthless MWO forums went ballistic saying they did not want it implemented.

[R Valentine]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

That doesn't matter, because hitting that one location is harder when you have to do it 2-3 extra times compared to before, you are naturally spreading because you have to take more shots to kill something already. Not to mention coordinated pushes become much more powerful, again because you it takes more shots to bring something down which HAS to happen to repel a push successfully. The more health something has, the more DPS becomes an important thing.

2 - 3 extra times applies to everyone, not just PPFLD, and for DPS it means 2 - 3 times longer. Having all of your damage focused on one location penetrates armor better than spreading it out. Duh, we all know that. That's why we twist. And since everything in the game is slower now, brawling and DPS builds will get hit the hardest. They rely on speed for everything. Speed to get close. Speedy weapons that fire fast. Speedy torsos to aim those weapons at damaged areas. Well, all of that is getting hit.

[Ultimax]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

2 - 3 extra times applies to everyone, not just PPFLD, and for DPS it means 2 - 3 times longer. Having all of your damage focused on one location penetrates armor better than spreading it out.

You're not understanding what he's saying.

DPS / aggressive push builds need to close the distance vs. long range snipe builds like Gauss PPCs - more survivability directly contributes to that.

Once they're in range, they almost always have a massive advantage and should win the engagement.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 May 2017 - 08:58 AM.