67 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

Ultimax, on 16 May 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

You're not understanding what he's saying.

DPS / aggressive push builds need to close the distance vs. long range snipe builds like Gauss PPCs - more survivability directly contributes to that.

Once they're in range, they almost always have a massive advantage and should win the enagement.

It works both ways. More survivability also gives you more armor to spread out that DPS damage, and DPS is already taking a huge nerf with the massive CD reductions. I understand exactly what he's saying, and it's all garbage. Any perceived "buff" to DPS/brawler builds is really a nerf and benefits PPFLD more than DPS/brawlers.

[Dimento Graven]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

The assumption seems to be that speed will suffer "a lot", when really, agility will be hit. I don't agree with your assumption. Speed will not change noticeably, and with the introduction of the LFE, IS speed will even increase.

I'm sorry but you can't justify the nerf being forced upon the IS with something that isn't yet even in the game, and won't be for MONTHS.

That's disingenuous and a great way to start a flame war.

[Ultimax]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

It works both ways. More survivability also gives you more armor to spread out that DPS damage, and DPS is already taking a huge nerf with the massive CD reductions. I understand exactly what he's saying, and it's all garbage.

No, it doesn't work that way when the team playing aggressively actually knows how to play the game and isn't using T3 Potato theory of how the game works while they make poke trades with their DPS mechs.

All DPS reductions are the same across the board, DPS for DPS builds will still be significantly higher than DPS for Snipe builds - and Snipe builds will have lower ability to stop aggressive pushes before they are in range to make full use of their superior DPS.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

2 - 3 extra times applies to everyone, not just PPFLD, and for DPS it means 2 - 3 times longer.

Except 2-3 extra shots IS MUCH more detrimental to PPFLD than it is DPS. Landing a few more 5 AC5 salvos is MUCH less of an issue than having to land 2-3 dual Gauss shots in the right component, especially in a push scenario. This is why most if not ALL lesser units will push when facing off against teams they think have a higher skill, because if they do a good push and the skilled team is NOT on point with their shots, they can lose and increasing the chances for missing makes things that much harder for receiving a push.

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

That's why we twist. And since everything in the game is slower now, brawling and DPS builds will get hit the hardest.

Not everything slower, especially given how MOST mechs WILL be taking the mobility tree. The only major nerf was turn rates on most mechs (with lights taking the biggest hit) and that isn't honestly as important to brawlers UNTIL you get into the brawl.

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Speedy weapons that fire fast.

Nothing has really changed about those speedy weapons. While sure many mechs lost offensive quirks, that won't signify a huge enough shift since all mechs are getting tougher as well which makes closing the gap without taking significant damage easier.

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

DPS is already taking a huge nerf with the massive CD reductions.

Where are these massive nerfs exactly? I know my favorite Locust took a hit (LCT-3S) but outside of lights the cSPL boats didn't even really take a significant hit to CD reductions or anything since PPFLD will not be looking to replace their weapon modules potentially either (instead they will be looking at mobility/durability/sensors/consumables/operations.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 May 2017 - 10:41 AM.

[Dollar Bill]

radiv, on 15 May 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

Most of this is a lie. Some mechs will be buffed some mechs will be nerfed because of the engine desync.
You dont need speed tweak to be able to follow ur group its not like its more important than engine size
You dont need sensors, its nice but not a requirement
You dont need heacontainment, you can just run pure ballistics

No...THIS is the lie:

Quoted from Skill Tree Q & A With Paul Inouye And Chris Lowrey
"Paul: The Skill Tree is being implemented for numerous reasons, all of which bring MWO forward in terms of 'Mech customization, personalization of how your 'Mech performs, and giving us a few more avenues for increasing depth of play. MechWarrior Online and all other MechWarrior titles have always been about customizing a 'Mech and trying the build that you have created.
So the Skill Tree allows us to bring customization into a new level of depth, and really drives home the freedom to make personal decisions as to how your 'Mech will behave when you are at the helm, with the Loadout you have equipped, augmented by Skills you have chosen."

First thing out of Paul's mouth was this lie about the Skill Tree (Maze) giving the player the 'freedom' to build and play their mech the way the player wants it. And judging from some of the posts, some of you have fallen for Paul's lie. What Paul is really saying is "I think you are all stupid enough to believe this, so here it is."

The Truth:

This Skill Tree gives PGI the freedom to micro-manage and chose your builds. It gives the player less freedom to chose. If Paul/Russ's intention was what Paul said, then they would have given us a liner skill tree and then stepped out of the way.

I've read Paul's flawed reasoning for going with the non-liner and gated skill tree, and his reasoning goes against everything he said in his statement above. And if any of you believe this skill tree is going to do half of what Paul thinks, you are fooling yourselves. In a number of ways, as other posters have already pointed out, it will make the problems worse. As all the White Knight/lore mech running/TTK/meta build/power creep/boating whiners are about to find out. This 'Skill Maze' is just going to unnecessarily increase the level of salt and frustration in the community, make it harder to build a mech, and make MWO even more new player unfriendly.

The OP is right. This skill tree is PGI giving us the illusion of choice. While taking real choice away from the players. It is a lie and an insult.

Edited by Dollar Bill, 16 May 2017 - 11:27 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

There is no illusion of choice, there is an actual choice. You either choose to be bad, or choose to go meta.

Well... that falls under "illusion of choice", when you look at wanting to be meta, there should be a choice of how you be meta, not just meta or not meta.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 May 2017 - 01:46 PM.

[Blhurr]

I have not noticed slower play.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 15 May 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

So...we await a new meta.

The new meta will be mobility, operations, and sensors as much as you can get for what you want.

This means there will literally be no choices...

You have to be able to move to keep up. Mobility is a flat out requirement.

You have to be able to track the enemy and remove yourself from their sensors. Sensors is a must.

You have to be able to fire sustained...so you need heat containment, cool running, and all of that to even be on the same level as others. Operations is a must.

So, effectively...this works out to be a flat nerf to current mechs.

Those of you thinking that you were going to load up on armor/structure buffs, or firepower buffs...have fun with that while the rest of your team leaves your mech behind and kills everything before you get there. When you do get shot with your armor structure buffs, good luck torso twisting without any mobility skills, and once you finally get to aim, good luck doing anything with it after your first volley with no cooling.

I am going to try this patch and see what happens, but this is not going to be the choice anyone thinks it will be...I may put this game back on the back burner for a while after this.

I can hear the potatoes screaming everything OP now because they will have no clue about why other mechs are so much more effective against them than they are. "Why is that clan mech shooting twice when I cannot shoot more than once...? Clans OP!"

Whatever...I guess the potatoes are getting what they thought they wanted.

Sorta, but firepower is still a better use for you 26-28 pts than sensors. The Aux tree is worth more than sensors on most mechs.

However, yeah. Mobility and ops are 100% must have on every mech or you're a total potato idiot. May as well just XL your Atlas and your Stalkers at that point because you've embraced failure, why just go part way?

Maybe for derp queue stuff sensors might have some value but if you're playing with a team firepower is a better return on investment - though not by a ton. They've nerfed the value of cooldown and heat gen quirks so utterly that there's no way to get enough of them to be relevant.

Burn duration though? You can absolutely get the 15% burn duration reduction on your Clan Laservomit and have better damage/tic than any other weapons in the game, at better range. No reason *not* to do so.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gyrok, on 15 May 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

So...we await a new meta.

The new meta will be mobility, operations, and sensors as much as you can get for what you want.

This means there will literally be no choices...

You have to be able to move to keep up. Mobility is a flat out requirement.

You have to be able to track the enemy and remove yourself from their sensors. Sensors is a must.

You have to be able to fire sustained...so you need heat containment, cool running, and all of that to even be on the same level as others. Operations is a must.

So, effectively...this works out to be a flat nerf to current mechs.

Those of you thinking that you were going to load up on armor/structure buffs, or firepower buffs...have fun with that while the rest of your team leaves your mech behind and kills everything before you get there. When you do get shot with your armor structure buffs, good luck torso twisting without any mobility skills, and once you finally get to aim, good luck doing anything with it after your first volley with no cooling.

I am going to try this patch and see what happens, but this is not going to be the choice anyone thinks it will be...I may put this game back on the back burner for a while after this.

I can hear the potatoes screaming everything OP now because they will have no clue about why other mechs are so much more effective against them than they are. "Why is that clan mech shooting twice when I cannot shoot more than once...? Clans OP!"

Whatever...I guess the potatoes are getting what they thought they wanted.

Had my head in the sand for a couple of month while they fleshed out the new system and to be honest this is what I was afraid of with the way the trees were set up. Looked the over and it seems like most of my points are going to be tired up in must have skills, leaving almost zero flexibility for customization. Heat is an issue for any and all builds so you have to have the heat management skills. Mobility is the best defense and tied with the Engine Desync that further reduces most mechs mobility, you absolutely have to invest heavily in mobility. Radar deprivation is huge so you got to have that and all the crap you don't want to skill into to get it. This means almost nothing is left to actually use to customize.

Also we kind of need a way to test things before they are locked in don't you think? Buying 91 SP then finding that the skills you bought don't work like you expected is a bit of an issue.

[Mechwarrior0155422]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

The assumption seems to be that speed will suffer "a lot", when really, agility will be hit. I don't agree with your assumption. Speed will not change noticeably, and with the introduction of the LFE, IS speed will even increase.

Assumption... Please it's a fact

[Summon3r]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

There is no illusion of choice, there is an actual choice. You either choose to be bad, or choose to go meta.

this is the most dissapoiting thing about MWO, meta or be a complete potato/terribad

regardless ill be trying out my beloved SMN with lbx nodes JJ nodes and magazine nodes to see if i can squeeze a touch more out of old faithful erppc lbx20 machine.

[MischiefSC]

J Belleau, on 16 May 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

Assumption... Please it's a fact

LFE is just not that good of a tradeoff. It's not going to get you the firepower of the XL builds - it's going to be 7 or more tons heavier than the XL for most mechs. Maybe some lights and small engine mediums will benefit and the big assaults that have to take a STD like the Atlas will benefit but largely it's going to leave IS mechs *significantly* under gunned compared to their Clan counterpart.

Also, I just got into the game and skilled up a mech. Max out ops and mobility save for 2 nodes for Speed Retention. Then you skill up firepower for your laservomit mech - 6% cooldown, 5.25% heat reduction and 11% range increase.

Yes. Yes, no question that's more valuable than the sensor tree.

Edited to add -

Also a 15% burn duration decrease. Yes, flat out superior to sensor tree for the investment.

Edited by MischiefSC, 16 May 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[SoloidSnake]

I knew the Timbie was getting a nerf, but not THAT big of a nerf. Sasuga, PGI.

[Fortin]

Yes, my brawler assault mechs are useless now. RIP spirit bear. Closing the range gap is now so much harder. Who has the new sniper build with the least skillpoints wasted? All my chassis are garbage now.

[TLBFestus]

Viktor Drake, on 16 May 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Had my head in the sand for a couple of month while they fleshed out the new system and to be honest this is what I was afraid of with the way the trees were set up. Looked the over and it seems like most of my points are going to be tired up in must have skills, leaving almost zero flexibility for customization. Heat is an issue for any and all builds so you have to have the heat management skills. Mobility is the best defense and tied with the Engine Desync that further reduces most mechs mobility, you absolutely have to invest heavily in mobility. Radar deprivation is huge so you got to have that and all the crap you don't want to skill into to get it. This means almost nothing is left to actually use to customize.

Also we kind of need a way to test things before they are locked in don't you think? Buying 91 SP then finding that the skills you bought don't work like you expected is a bit of an issue.

I haven't had a chance to try it since the patch came out, but I can see your point.

Thing is that regardless there will always be a "meta" type build that many will follow and needing all the thing you mentioned probably eats up too many of the 91 points we get, and reduces flexibility.

That's why i like skill trees that branch and lock you out of certain other desirable traits and force players to make choices. Not everyone will be the same and may prefer certain options over others. Sounds like we are going to be forced in a direction that eats up our freedom of choice and that will suck.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I dunno, I already have half a dozen or so 'Mechs which I didn't bother with 2/3 of the mobility tree for because they were already fast enough- for example, my Cicadas. Speed tweak isn't essential when you're already doing 133kph, and more agility just isn't essential up in the 40-tonner mobility range either. TIG, cooling, and laser duration, though... very much so.

I also have a few 'Mechs which I didn't need the ops tree for because their cooling was already ~1.5 or higher, and thus not as much a concern as either mobility (for positioning and snap-firing AC20) or extra armor and structure (for dakka builds that spend lots of time staring).

There's more choice. There may be only a few minmaxed meta options at the comp level per chassis, but there is way more flexibility for the average dirty casual like mois. Minmaxing was always going to happen anyway... one or two percent is more than enough to build a meta around.

[Gyrok]

Bud Crue, on 16 May 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

Can one of you people who assert that the meta is going to shift please explain what you think the meta is and what exactly in this patch makes you think that it is about to change?

From my perspective the meta is long range clan PPFLD to whcih the IS attempts to counter with ERLL running Grasshopper 5Ps and Battlemasters. I see nothing in the skills tree that will change that other than perhaps less folks taking Kodiaks due to its structure nerfs and thus relying more on the Night Gyr. Not a huge shift. But I am a scrub so I am probably not understanding something here, so I would appreciate some enlightenment as to what I am missing.

Meta at the moment *IS* PPFLD, and LPLs/ERLLs on the other side. Now that this skill tree has come into play, I expect PPFLD to become more firmly cemented as the only real viable option. For IS, that means dakka builds will be about the only thing worth running. Clans will see lots of things go the way of the dodo in terms of viable builds.

[Gyrok]

KingCobra, on 16 May 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off pal your a POS for blaming players and calling them potatoes next it was your grand masters the units that wanted this new skill tree not everyone else.

Call it as I see it, unless you are a potato, or wanted the skill tree, you should not be offended.

Quote

I don't think anyone but the units that pal around with Russ in game even knew this skill tree was coming where are the topics and posts stating anyone even wanted a new skill tree in the first place? Exactly there were none until it was announced and the whole worthless MWO forums went ballistic saying they did not want it implemented.

Really?

Reddit hates this red headed step child. The only units I care to know about have people posting there, and not a one of them thought this was a brilliant idea. Hell, the monday caps lock thread has been a running skill tree meme for months.

[Khobai]

Quote

You realize those same things seriously help DPS weapons as well.....?

uh massively reducing cooldown does not help dps weapons

cooldown is the most important thing for a dps weapon because it translates directly to more dps

dps weapons got kicked in the nuts. period. those other things youre talking about matter very little compared to cooldown.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2017 - 06:24 PM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 16 May 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Sorta, but firepower is still a better use for you 26-28 pts than sensors. The Aux tree is worth more than sensors on most mechs.

However, yeah. Mobility and ops are 100% must have on every mech or you're a total potato idiot. May as well just XL your Atlas and your Stalkers at that point because you've embraced failure, why just go part way?

Maybe for derp queue stuff sensors might have some value but if you're playing with a team firepower is a better return on investment - though not by a ton. They've nerfed the value of cooldown and heat gen quirks so utterly that there's no way to get enough of them to be relevant.

Burn duration though? You can absolutely get the 15% burn duration reduction on your Clan Laservomit and have better damage/tic than any other weapons in the game, at better range. No reason *not* to do so.

Actually, clans only get 10% burn duration.

Additionally...ECM is worthless without nodes. At least 1 node for sure...2 is going to be much better.