47 replies to this topic

[Ced Riggs]

Hey,

Because everyone's all up in arms about things, here's what's to come in simple terms.

1.) Engine desync
Engine X no longer provides turn rate Y, accel/decel rate Z. Instead, turn rates are tied to the chassis. Accel/Decel are functions tied to the chassis, but always depending on Delta-V of current speed and top speed. A high top speed will result in a better accel/decel rate implicitly. And some mechs, such as the Phoenix Hawk, get their base mobility vastly pushed beyond their contemporaries in the base line stats. Which is amplified further by the skill tree, as that's a modifier to the base line.

2.) Skilltree Meganerf
We're all getting nerfed in firepower, and buffed in suvivabilty. The obvious effect is a deceleration of gameplay, and an increase in TTK (Read: killing takes longer, matches go longer). That's the basis for every mech. Don't get hung up on your specific favourite mech. You aren't losing X, everything is changing in regards to X.

3.) Skilltree IS blanket nerf
Again, everyone's getting nerfed, only IS mechs get hit harder less hard. IS mechs lean towards durability, and durability is getting buffed. Clan mechs lean towards firepower, and firepower is getting nerfed. IS mechs add base-quirks for armor/structure to skilltree buffs. Clams simply lose over 10% cooldown reduction across the board.

4.) The sky is falling.
It's not, the game is transitioning to a less restrictive (rule of three) system and on the way, some old things are being reworked. To reduce TTK, firepower needs to go down (happening), durabiltiy needs to go up (happening). Which, in turn, bridges the gap between IS and Clan.

Stop losing your marbles about all of this. Those "I WILL LEAVE" posts are pathetic. Stop clinging to something just because you are used to it, and adapt to the new system. If you are comparing it to the old, you will never find the clear sight to embrace the new. It's the same in every game that goes through a major overhaul. I can guarantee you, the top dogs are already equipped with a plan on how to approach the new system, and while you complain and moan, you'll be left behind and get stomped.

Read, understand, have a plan.

[Lupis Volk]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Read, understand, have a plan.

I know for a fact that since your a Jaded Falcon, most here will ignore you out of the fact that your a Clanner and that is sad.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 15 May 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Lupis Volk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

I know for a fact that since your a Jaded Falcon, most here will ignore you out of the fact that your a Clanner and that is sad.

Pretty much. Oh, look, the fatmechs aren't going to dance like fat ballerinas any more. Never mind that they're apparently getting even more armor than before (thanks to +% armor skill tree nodes, which work with quirks). Never mind that the offensive quirks on most mechs are going away, and some defensive quirks on overperforming Clan mechs are going as well.

Light mechs get shafted every patch, and those that still remain just adapt and keep going. Why can't bigger mech pilots do the same? It confuses me to no end.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 15 May 2017 - 11:16 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Lupis Volk, on 15 May 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

I know for a fact that since your a Jaded Falcon, most here will ignore you out of the fact that your a Clanner and that is sad.

It's funny because my unit chose clan, but I run mostly IS mechs in QP. :^)

[Lupis Volk]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 15 May 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

Pretty much. Oh, look, the fatmechs aren't going to dance like fat ballerinas any more. Never mind that they're apparently getting even more armor than before (thanks to +% armor skill tree nodes, which work with quirks). Never mind that the offensive quirks on most mechs are going away, and some defensive quirks on overperforming Clan mechs are going as well.

Light mechs get shafted every patch, and those that still remain just adapt and keep going. Why can't bigger mech pilots do the same? It confuses me to no end.

Well it's simple really. They deny reality to further their agendas.

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

It's funny because my unit chose clan, but I run mostly IS mechs in QP. :^)

I was a former IS loyalist and i still play meh freeborn mechs in QP. just got me an Atlas D-dc.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

3.) Skilltree IS blanket nerf
Again, everyone's getting nerfed, only IS mechs get hit harder less hard. IS mechs lean towards durability, and durability is getting buffed. Clan mechs lean towards firepower, and firepower is getting nerfed. IS mechs add base-quirks for armor/structure to skilltree buffs. Clams simply lose over 10% cooldown reduction across the board.

I'm sorry, what?

Clans get durability buffs too. And the IS is getting much bigger firepower nerfs than the Clans due to much bigger quirk reductions. If you haven't noticed, these quirks are the only thing keeping IS mechs even remotely viable against their Clan counterparts.

[Ced Riggs]

Kaeb Odellas, on 15 May 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

I'm sorry, what?

IS has base increases to armor and structure. These base increases are amplified by the skill tree. IS chassis get more durability than clams. IS has stronger skill tree nodes for weapons than clams. Clams lose their offensive quirks just like IS does - PPC Summoner, for example, is gonna be shredded, unless there is some remaining on the omnipods. And so on.

The cry "IS is gettiung shafted harder than Clans!" is a statement that applies to a vacuum observation of insular events. Across the board, IS gains towards clans. The arrival of the LFE and light ferro (even if it's piss weak) further helps to bridge that gap. If you only look at one mech, for one build, you will sure find a drop in performance on one aspect - firepower. But, again, everyone's dropping on firepower. But IS gains massively on durability.

[El Bandito]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

3.) Skilltree IS blanket nerf
Again, everyone's getting nerfed, only IS mechs get hit harder less hard. IS mechs lean towards durability, and durability is getting buffed. Clan mechs lean towards firepower, and firepower is getting nerfed. IS mechs add base-quirks for armor/structure to skilltree buffs. Clams simply lose over 10% cooldown reduction across the board.

4.) The sky is falling.
It's not, the game is transitioning to a less restrictive (rule of three) system and on the way, some old things are being reworked. To reduce TTK, firepower needs to go down (happening), durabiltiy needs to go up (happening). Which, in turn, bridges the gap between IS and Clan.

How is it bridging the gap when tons of IS mechs had lost their range/velocity/heat reduction quirks? Until the tech comes out, there is no reason to play IS mechs.

[Ced Riggs]

El Bandito, on 15 May 2017 - 11:37 PM, said:

Until the tech comes out, there is no reason to play IS mechs.

Being able to soak much more damage than clams sounds like a decent reason.

[Davegt27]

define "Delta-V"

forgot lol

Edited by Davegt27, 15 May 2017 - 11:48 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Davegt27, on 15 May 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

define "Delta-V"

Delta - difference; V - speed

SPEEDtop - SPEEDcurrent = Delta-V

The higher Delta-V is, the more accel/decel rates apply. A mech with a high top speed or a low current speed accelerates faster than a mech with a high current speed or a low top speed. If you are stationary and your top speed is 48kph, your delta-V is 48kph, which is then fed into the accel/decel rate calculations. If you are moving at 20kph and your top speed is 80kph, your Delta-V is 60kph. Fed into the same equations, your accel/decel rate will be higher.

TL;DR: bigger engine makes you goes faster faster, and slower faster, because it has more difference between 0kph and top speed.

[El Bandito]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Being able to soak much more damage than clams sounds like a decent reason.

Have actually looked at the quirks and numbers? Most IS mechs will gain only 2-7 extra HP per section from the skill tree. That's nothing. Warhammer-6D for example, has 7 extra structure per ST, and with the new skill tree it is getting only 2.17 additional structure per ST, making it 9.17 total. Even the "super tanky" BLR-2C gets only 5 extra structure per ST from the skill tree bonus. Still very easy to XL check. Much more damage soak my arse.

Especially since health is a one time thing, while weapon quirks will have compounded benefit as long as you keep firing. Weapon, mobility, consumable skill tree > durability tree.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 May 2017 - 11:55 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

El Bandito, on 15 May 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

Much more damage my arse.

You know what, I'mma extend an olive branch here: We'll see how it all plays out. The dust will settle. Right now, tensions run high because a lot of people over- and underestimate several changes, and many refuse to accept a change. Any change, for that matter. I don't feel beholden to protect any system, new or old.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Ced Riggs, on 15 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

2.) Skilltree Meganerf
We're all getting nerfed in firepower, and buffed in suvivabilty. The obvious effect is a deceleration of gameplay, and an increase in TTK (Read: killing takes longer, matches go longer). That's the basis for every mech. Don't get hung up on your specific favourite mech. You aren't losing X, everything is changing in regards to X.

The NTG laughs at you!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is getting a MASSIVE BUFF in comparative power level

[MischiefSC]

It's not as big a deal as some are making it.

However, Clans are not getting a nerf more than the IS. Every single mech is losing mobility. That's impacting everyone. Everyone is having weapon quirks reduced. Most Clan mechs don't have them, as such saw no impact. Everyone is getting hit by the loss of basics/elites/double-basics/modules. They all have the same points to re-invest. As such mechs that lost quirks are losing more than those who didn't.

The best mechs (which are almost all Clans) are getting a functional buff - they can spend points to buy perks they didn't have before. Night Gyr loses no weapon performance and is picking up better velocity and cooling as well as range, plus gauss quirks to give you a bit more time to aim. The ability of IS and/or Clan mechs to pick up 3-7 extra health in their torsos is nothing compared to that.

A 15% burn duration decrease on lasers is way more beneficial for CLPL than IS LPL. The loss in mobility is far, far more significant to IS XL use (which is an even worse idea after the skill tree) than CXL use.

People are irked because we're getting a pretty significant nerf to a lot (not all) IS mechs and a bit of a buff to all the top performing (IS or Clan, but most top performing mechs are Clan) mechs. Bad mechs got worse, good mechs got better.

It's a legit concern. However it's not nearly as broken for balance as it was for the first 18 months after Clan release. We're giving up probably 8-12 months worth of slow balance improvement and may or may not get it back. We'll see.

[Khobai]

Quote

Have actually looked at the quirks and numbers? Most IS mechs will gain only 2-7 extra HP per section from the skill tree. That's nothing. Warhammer-6D for example, has 7 extra structure per ST, and with the new skill tree it is getting only 2.17 additional structure per ST, making it 9.17 total. Even the "super tanky" BLR-2C gets only 5 extra structure per ST from the skill tree bonus. Still very easy to XL check. Much more damage soak my arse.

But youre getting LFE engines

So a warhammer with LFE will get twice the benefit from side torso buffs since both STs have to be destroyed.

And im not sure why youd use an XL in a warhammer when LFE is an option. Its better to take the speed hit for a substantial increase in survivability. The Warhammer will have to drop from a 300 engine down to a 275 to take an LFE instead of an XL. And youll also be able to fit ferro light for 7 crit slots.

Between the armor/structure quirks/skills and LFE, IS is getting a pretty huge survivability increase.

Quote

The NTG laughs at you!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is getting a MASSIVE BUFF in comparative power level

Yep.

The Kodiak is unquestionably getting nerfed. And the Night Gyr is now king.

This skill tree massively nerfs brawling and buffs PPFLD.

PGI clearly did not reason out the consequences of their skill tree.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Maybe the arrival of the new tech will help mitigate some concerns. Given how old MWO is, how much is a month of waiting? I, for one, am welcoming our new MRM overlords.

[Duke Nedo]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

But youre getting LFE engines

So a warhammer with LFE will get twice the benefit from side torso buffs since both STs have to be destroyed.

And im not sure why youd use an XL in a warhammer when LFE is an option. Its better to take the speed hit for a substantial increase in survivability.

Between the armor/structure quirks/skills and LFE, IS is getting a pretty huge survivability increase.

Good for a few mediums I guess, otherwise.. still need an XL in most cases.

What's better is to bring a clan mech, lol.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 16 May 2017 - 12:11 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Good for a few mediums I guess, otherwise.. still need an XL in most cases.

Mediums will still need XL. But thats because Mediums are inferior to Heavies in virtually every way. So theyre forced to use XL just to be minimally viable.

Thats a role warfare problem not an engine problem.

Even on the clan side, clan heavies outperform clan mediums by a huge margin.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2017 - 12:25 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 16 May 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

But youre getting LFE engines

So a warhammer with LFE will get twice the benefit from side torso buffs since both STs have to be destroyed.

And im not sure why youd use an XL in a warhammer when LFE is an option. Its better to take the speed hit for a substantial increase in survivability. The Warhammer will have to drop from a 300 engine down to a 275 to take an LFE instead of an XL. And youll also be able to fit ferro light for 7 crit slots.

Between the armor/structure quirks/skills and LFE, IS is getting a pretty huge survivability increase.

275 engine rating Warhammer? Hahahahaha! Yeah, that will increase my survivability, alright. Yer a real comedian.




Also, use Light Ferro? Are you serious?

Edited by El Bandito, 16 May 2017 - 12:21 AM.