342 replies to this topic

[Harlock69]

Nice breakdown, but what I like most of your approach, is that you give a detailed 'why' for what you suggest. I could see myself implementing at least some of these if I did dakka builds.

[cazidin]

Harlock69, on 25 May 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Nice breakdown, but what I like most of your approach, is that you give a detailed 'why' for what you suggest. I could see myself implementing at least some of these if I did dakka builds.

To whom's guide do you refer?

[G4LV4TR0N]

Probably ScrubLord1 because he listed "dakka" build on page 9.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 25 May 2017 - 04:53 PM.

[Bud Crue]

https://mwomercs.com...new-skill-tree/

Good commentary for those looking for general ST guidance.

[ScrubLord1]

Harlock69, on 25 May 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Nice breakdown, but what I like most of your approach, is that you give a detailed 'why' for what you suggest. I could see myself implementing at least some of these if I did dakka builds.

Glad my little guide could help in any way possible!

[ShoX]

The next time I get unsolicited PMs to promote some guide in a forum thread I'm going to have a fit. Not sure what this thread is about, but it seems it made Scrublord send me spam asking for his post to be liked.

Not cool.

[ScrubLord1]

ShoX, on 26 May 2017 - 01:48 AM, said:

The next time I get unsolicited PMs to promote some guide in a forum thread I'm going to have a fit. Not sure what this thread is about, but it seems it made Scrublord send me spam asking for his post to be liked.

Not cool.

Oops sorry wasn't spam! I was trying to message one of my in-game unit mates, probably mistyped his forum name and PM-ed you the thread link by mistake. Apologies for the accidental harrassment!

Edited by ScrubLord1, 26 May 2017 - 02:03 AM.

[ShoX]

I PMed Bud a screenshot of your message. I'll leave it at that.

[GotShotALot]

I also got random 'please come like my post' PM for this thread. Kind of unfortunate that the 'get your unit mates to come vote for you' idea got tossed in, since I see some of the top 'likes' have half a dozen or so unit-votes. Anyone who doesn't have an organized unit kind of loses out there.

Regardless, good thread, and helped me a lot with my skill tree choices. Thanks Bud and all the tree posters!

[Bud Crue]

ScrubLord1, on 26 May 2017 - 02:02 AM, said:

Oops sorry wasn't spam! I was trying to message one of my in-game unit mates, probably mistyped his forum name and PM-ed you the thread link by mistake. Apologies for the accidental harrassment!

Scrublord1, sorry dude, but what Shox sent me was most certainly spam.

So, to be as clear as possible:

For F***s sake people. Talk to your friends and those you play with. By all means tell them about the contest and especially its goal of trying to educate people and to come up with skills tree paths that might help folks optimize their respective builds. This is supposed to being about helping each other and developing a node-out guide(s)...not harassing folks to get some likes.

Under no circumstances should you be spamming the forums or TS or ingame chat to try and get people to like a post. Geezus H Christ on a crack-er, It just a mech pack.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 May 2017 - 03:35 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

The6thMessenger, on 01 February 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

TBR Striker - 6x MPL + 2x SRM6A [200], 21 DHS
TBR-S Striker - 6x MPL + 2x SRM6A [200], 23 DHS, Warrant Omnipod
TBR-S Striker - 6x MPL + 2x SSRM6A [200], 21 DHS, Warrant Omnipod

A different take on the brawling build, this capitalizes more on the lasers; the Medium Pulse Lasers in focusing 48 damage at a single point, with a fluff of 25.8 by the SRMs. It will lose out on a brawling build, so it takes advantage of the increased range in poking, and destroying component instead. You don't dance with enemies, you hit and run.

If you prefer even more range, you can opt for streaks instead, however it will spread the 25.8 damage around the mech. It's while it's possible to be done with any variants, the best way to achieve this is the TBR-S with Warrant Right torso to maximize the tonnage.

Skills

Spoiler

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 May 2017 - 04:44 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Updated through #251.

Also in response to a PM: there are no rules here other than what I have at the bottom of the OP.
Post node paths, node guides or whatever. Community decides by likes/commentary which paths they like the most. Winners get a mech pack (of $20 equivalent from the store). I budgeted 10 mech packs.

My original OP had a bunch of my own personal goals of desiring general/broad paths directed at the NPE but since most entrants are mech/build specific I figured there was no point in leaving that up there.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 May 2017 - 05:00 AM.

[cazidin]

Bud Crue, on 26 May 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

Scrublord1, sorry dude, but what Shox sent me was most certainly spam.

So, to be as clear as possible:

For F***s sake people. Talk to your friends and those you play with. By all means tell them about the contest and especially its goal of trying to educate people and to come up with skills tree paths that might help folks optimize their respective builds. This is supposed to being about helping each other and developing a node-out guide(s)...not harassing folks to get some likes.

Under no circumstances should you be spamming the forums or TS or ingame chat to try and get people to like a post. Geezus H Christ on a crack-er, It just a mech pack.

Does spamming disqualify you?

[Bud Crue]

cazidin, on 26 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

Does spamming disqualify you?

Stop.

It doesn't disqualify you, but a mod may be forced to come in and delete the thread...and that helps no one, nor wins anyone a damn mech pack.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 May 2017 - 06:34 AM.

[cazidin]

Bud Crue, on 26 May 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

Stop.

I'm legitimately curious, and want to be sure that spreading the message in Quick Play (not spamming it, for obvious reasons) is OK. I usually mention this (and my own) at the start and end of a match.

For hopefully obvious reasons, I want to be sure I don't spam people for a Forum Contest.

You answered my question in an edit. Well played.

Edited by cazidin, 26 May 2017 - 06:40 AM.

[ScrubLord1]

Bud Crue, on 26 May 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

Scrublord1, sorry dude, but what Shox sent me was most certainly spam.

Apologies Bud, got abit over excited but didn't go beyond messaging a handful of people, will keep that in mind for the future!

That said, I'm committed to providing a quality guide for new players to follow, which is why I have been constantly revising my guide and adding content the past few days based on feedback from in-game friends who had a chance to take a look. Will continue to promote the thread among them.

[Bud Crue]

ScrubLord1, on 26 May 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

Apologies Bud, got abit over excited but didn't go beyond messaging a handful of people, will keep that in mind for the future!

That said, I'm committed to providing a quality guide for new players to follow, which is why I have been constantly revising my guide and adding content the past few days based on feedback from in-game friends who had a chance to take a look. Will continue to promote the thread among them.

No worries. It wouldn't be the forums without some complaints, over-reaction and drama to give the topic some pizazz.

[Wattila]

I think I've starting to get some kind of a grasp of the trees in general, so here are some node paths I've been using with some basic reasoning included.

PART 1/2

Firepower

Heat Gen vs Cool Run: 14 heat gen nodes is pretty much equal to 5 cool run nodes. Just taking the heat gen is often enough if you have a reason to go deep in the firepower tree.

I'm not providing many ready-made paths, since the tree is mostly good. I'm only listing the high-priority nodes, the rest (the "gates") should mainly be taken to reach these. I'm also explaining why I consider low-priority nodes low priority.

Lasers: Laser Duration, Range, Heat Gen. Laser duration is important because is limits your exposure and makes it easier to keep the burn on the same component. It also increases your RoF since cooldown starts after the burn has ended. Lasers are hitscan weapons, so extra range is always welcome. IS needs range more than clans since clan lasers are already quite effective between 400-600m. Heat generation nodes are great as you are dissipation limited when boating lasers, and you have to get some anyway.

Velocity is useless for lasers because there is no projectile. Cooldown nodes are poor value because your firepower is limited by your heat dissipation rather than rate of fire.

This 33 node path is currently my favorite as it gets all the range and duration nodes, and quite a few heat gen nodes without running into any gates. If you have points to spare, you can get this 39 node path that also gets four extra heat gen nodes gated by 2 cooldown nodes, so it's still pretty efficient. The budget option is 18 nodes, and gets you all the laser duration nodes with nothing extra.

It should also be noted that small (pulse) lasers benefit less from both range and duration nodes (SPL is 0.5s base and is usually fired at knife range), so you need to use your judgement depending on your mech build.

PPCs: Velocity, Heat Gen. Velocity makes it easier to hit things at range, so it's recommended to get as many as possible, especially since two nodes are gated by heat gen anyway. PPCs are hot weapons, so heat gen is always welcome.

Range is mostly unnecessary, since even the standard IS PPCs reach 600m with couple nodes, and it's already difficult to hit targets at that range after the PPC velocity quirks got slashed in the skill tree patch. Cooldown nodes are poor value for the same reasons as for lasers - you're limited by your heat dissipation.

A PPC mech could invest 31 nodes like this, but you do end up getting quite a few unnecessary nodes. I feel PPC mechs generally have to take a lot of meh nodes to reach the good stuff, so the Firepower tree is of low value to them.

Missiles (SRM): Missile Rack, Heat Gen, Velocity, Cooldown. Missile Rack is good, it's either extra ammo or free tonnage. SRMs are cooler than lasers, but you can still overheat if you have many tubes, so getting heat gen nodes is recommended. SRMs have a slow flight speed, so velocity definitely helps. DPS is kind of important in a brawl, so cooldown nodes are good, but it's not necessary pick every node in the tree - just the ungated ones will do.

Range is low-priority because firing SRMs at a target 300m away is already pretty inefficient due to spread. High Explosive and Missile spread nodes aren't high priority because their effects are quite negligible. They're not entirely terrible, so don't feel bad about picking them if you have extra points, but wouldn't go through bad nodes to get them.

I do not currently run any pure SRM boats, but this 26 node left side path covers the essentials.

Ballistics: Magazine Capacity, Velocity, Cooldown. Magazine capacity is excellent, many ballistic boats need to carry a lot of ammo and are often crit limited, so +20% is godsent. Ballistic weapons have slow projectile speeds with the exception of the AC2 (and Gauss, but it's a weapon deserving a separate entry), so velocity nodes are very useful. Ballistics are also generally RoF limited, so getting Cooldown nodes directly increases your DPS with practically no downsides.

Range isn't high priority since ballistics generally have more range than needed due to their low projectile speeds. Heat Gen isn't bad, but you'll end up picking more than enough as gate nodes. Maybe pick more if you run a hot clan UAC boat. UAC jam chance nodes are worthless, one node is -2.5% off the 17% jam chance. Taking two nodes would reduce your jam chance from 17% to 16.15%, not worth, might consider at -7.5% a pop.

I like this 29 node path for ballistics, since you get both magazine nodes, plenty of cooldown, and 3/5 velocity while taking only 2 heat gen nodes. If you have a dakka whale or some pretty hot build, feel free to start picking up more heat gen nodes starting from the ones gating the remaining two velocity nodes, like so.

Gauss: Magazine Capacity, Cooldown, Velocity. Gauss boats are often a bit ammo starved, so magazine capacity is good. Cooldown is also a high priority because your DPS is capped by your cooldown since gauss produces almost no heat. Velocity always helps, 3 nodes is easy to get, the remaining two are locked behind heat gen nodes, so getting them depends on the rest of your build.

Gauss boats now benefit from Range nodes after the maximum range nerf (it's now 2x optimal) since they have fast enough projectiles to hit targets at extreme ranges, so being gated by range nodes isn't terrible. Heat gen is obviously useless since the weapon produces next to no heat. I don't find gauss charge nodes particularly useful myself, since I rarely hold the charge for extended periods, ymmv.

Gauss boats don't really need the Firepower tree that much, but you can still put at least 36 nodes in it without running into too many crap nodes.

Which weapon types benefit most from the Firepower tree?

My current ranking would be something like this: Lasers > Ballistic > Missile(SRM) > Gauss/PPC.

Laser duration nodes are so incredibly valuable, that you should almost always get them. Ballistics also benefit from pretty much all the nodes, and magazine capacity is super useful. SRM builds have to pick many relatively useless range nodes to get to the useful ones. Gauss/PPC is last because the build doesn't really desperately need anything from the firepower tree unless the build is hot and ammo-starved like the 2xERPPC/2xGauss Night Gyr. All the nodes are useful, though, so it's a matter of preference.

Edited by Wattila, 28 May 2017 - 08:57 AM.

[Wattila]

PART 2/2

Survival

First of all, armor is better than structure. Armor keeps weapons on your mech longer and can't be critted for extra damage. The percentages for armor are lower, but mechs also have twice as much armor. Structure nodes get more valuable as you go up in tonnage with the break point being at 85 tons: https://docs.google....t#gid=164200447 (spreadsheet is from the excellent metamechs.com skill tree guide).

So, when should one consider investing in survival?

1) The mech has significant (25% armor or 50% structure) durability quirks
2) The mech is a dakka boat or a slow assault, or you just like keeping weapons on your mech in general.
3) The other trees provide limited benefit and you have extra points. Mechs like gauss Kodiaks and Night Gyrs serve as a good example as they are already very heat efficient and get limited benefit from the Firepower tree. Also, do you really need all the mobility nodes if you have an agile mech with a big engine?

Which nodes to pick? Survival tree has 3 useless nodes before the first armor node, so you want to go all the way to the bottom, not worth dipping in this tree. I currently have three node paths I use almost exclusively. What they have in common is that all of them get the armor in the bottom because it just isn't worth going down the tree for the structure quirks alone.

1) The mech is lighter than 85 tons and has no structure quirks. Invest 16 nodes in the left side armor. Feel free to get the two ungated structure nodes if you have leftover points. It's not worth getting the remaining two armor nodes unless getting all the structure makes sense for your build. This is what I'd get for unquirked mechs that need a little extra durability.

2) The mech has structure quirks and/or is 85 tons or heavier. Invest 28 nodes to get all the structure and as much armor as you can get efficiently. It costs 20 nodes to get all the structure in the tree and only 8 additional nodes to get 7 armor nodes - can't beat that value. Also, larger assaults get limited value from mobility, and get hit no matter what you do, so invest at least this much.

3) Slow assault dakka boat, assault with armor quirks, or just many free points. Get all the structure and armor for 32 nodes.

Mobility

Mobility is a lot like the Firepower tree - all the nodes are pretty good, so it's easy to dip into the tree or dump leftover points in it. However, it's usually worth getting at least 3/5 speed tweak nodes at the bottom. The multipliers work on mech base values, and the tree does not scale apart from torso twist speed.

The tree is of poor value to slow assaults because it's a hard to make a dent in their bad base values. Some mechs like Dragon are also agile enough to not need a huge investment in this tree, or at all. Speed tweak is pretty much mandatory for lights, but other weight classes should consider how much investment is really necessary.

The shortest path to speed tweak is 14 nodes from both sides. The left side focuses on torso twisting and the right side on agility. I tend to favor torso twisting for mediums and heavies, and overall agility for lights.

The shortest full speed tweak path is 21 nodes. The path is identical from both sides, and you get to choose between anchor turn and torso speed at the bottom.

As far as expanded node setups go, I tend to favor torso speed a lot since you can't fit an oversized engine to become super agile anymore. The most commonly used path is 17 nodes.

Jump Jets

One might think this tree is useless, but there are cases where it might be worth to invest in.

1) The mech cannot mount enough jump jets due to running out of tonnage or crits. In this case the tree gives you free tonnage and crits, pretty good.
2) You can use a wider variety of less jump capable mechs in overwatch/sniping positions they couldn't reach before.
3) You can maybe make a Dire hover at 9m if you get all the JJ torsos and think happy thoughts. Savor in the moment when the enemy mechwarriors see your majestic form appear above the horizon.

Operations

As established before, 5 cool run nodes are roughly equal to 14 heat gen nodes. However, getting the heat gen nodes requires a large investment in the Firepower tree. Operations has a lot of filler, but the overall investment for similar cooling is much smaller. So when to invest in Operations?

1) You are not planning to significantly invest in Firepower, but need the heat dissipation.
2) Your build is hot, and you need even more heat dissipation.

Cool run nodes are all you want from this tree. The heat containment nodes are ok, but apparently only work on the base heat cap plus internal engine heat sinks (truedubs) according to tests done by the community: https://mwomercs.com...st__p__5756467.

I have two general paths for this tree depending on whether I want 4 or 5 cool run nodes. As with the Survival tree, the good stuff is in the bottom of the tree, so you don't want to dip. The shorter one is only 13 nodes while the longer one is 17 nodes. I favor the left side because I think hill climb is reasonably useful for heavier mechs that get speed reduction from the smallest inclines. Also, feel free to pick the ungated heat containment node if you an have extra point. Getting the fifth one probably isn't worth it in most cases since it's gated.

Sensors

I am not a fan of the Sensors tree outside of light and ECM mechs that need it for survival/stealth or, you know, having a functional ECM (thanks, PGI). Or brawlers that can really use the seismic. The reason I don't like it on most heavier mechs is because of the opportunity cost - there's always an another way to spend the points that helps you all the time while the Sensors tree is quite situational.

If I was to take it on a heavy or assault, I would use this 13 node path. As far as I'm concerned, seismic sensor is the only truly worthwhile thing in the tree unless you're boating lurms (the irony). However, 100m seismic is pretty bad, good for checking corners but not much else. The 200m seismic costs 12 nodes. However, you can also spend one extra point for a radar derp node to get the targeting warning blip. The best one point wonder in the tree?

So, why not pick radar deprivation on heavier mechs?

1) It does nothing when you're being actively spotted or sitting under a UAV.
2) You don't have many reasons to be stealthy when moving with the blob.
3) A building or a piece of rock is a much better LRM counter. Or just fit an AMS if you care about LRMs that much.

Don't take me wrong, radar derp is still good for lighter mechs that move around the map and can break LOS easily, just try playing without it and think if it's really worth it for that particular mech.

Auxiliary

This is a tree that will probably see much more use in competitive than casual play. One point is a good investment for casual play, but the double strikes and double cool shots are definitely worth it if you're willing to splurge for the consumables. Especially the strike enhancements are most likely the best damage boost in the tree for the nodes. About the coolshot cooldown, there is a 20 second cooldown for the consumable, and the node cuts it by -25% to 15 seconds. Decide for yourself if that's worth it to you.

Anyway, that's it, let me know if you spot any typos/errors.

Edited by Wattila, 30 May 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Updated thru 258.

Wattila, in case you care: I made a new entry in the index under guides for your #258 above. You had so many individual builds as well, that I didn't want your guide entry to get lost (in other words you have two entries; one up top in guides, and down below in specific builds as well.)