68 replies to this topic

[Insanity09]

@Savage Wolf, the mechlab and the new skill system are not quite the same thing. Yes, they are both complex, but the choices and values in the mechlab are far more clear and impactful.

If I choose to change to a large laser (from a medium or small), I immediately see the impact on tonnage and space (and heat to a lesser degree). The choices I make while altering a build are (mostly) immediately apparent. If I need to change something, unless I am buying new equipment, there is no cost to make the change, per se. And if I choose to sell the equipment back at any point at least I am getting something (half value) in return.
(4 changes do have a cost back and forth: FF, DHS, Endo, and Artemis. But very rarely will those be reverted once changed)

By contrast, in the skill maze single nodes are of questionable value. When I add a single node of skeletal density, it doesn't seem to do anything. If I add a single cooldown node (.75%), or 3 (2.25%), how does that affect my gameplay? For some factors (hill climb? imp gyro?) the benefits are even less clear. To make matters worse, when the only way to find out how the new skills affect your mech is to test it, then, oops, (if live testing) too many variables in a single game to be sure of what the skill changes actually did and by the way, you've now committed to those changes and will need to pay to redo any of them (if you want to, which, who knows?).
Having the choices is great, but when the value of many of those choices is nebulous at best, then it becomes aggravating.

(To add even more fun, as near as I can figure, the numbers for things like armor hardening and skeletal density are done based on the values for armor/structure totals for the entire mech. It seems the bonus numbers are calculated, then divided among the 8 locations. Rounding (truncating), might be happening at two steps along the way (when adding the bonus to the total, then again when dividing among the locations. This means that if you shorted the armor somewhere, say that arm which holds no weapons or other gear, you aren't getting as much armor bonus from those skills. E.g., when I was working on a possible unmastered TRB-5M build, based on CT values I thought I would get 3 points there, I got only 1.)

@Crumudgeon, You think you've got it bad with range on PPC's? At least range is actually useful on energy weapons, including PPC's (unless the range also adds to the minimum, boy would that be a bonehead move for PGI?). For every single missile weapon, SRM or LRM, range is actually either useless or detrimental. Longer range means longer flight time, greater spread (mostly SRMs), and chance to miss. I do not want ANY range for my missiles, they need to be used well within their default ranges for full effectiveness anyhow, extra range helps not at all.

[Damnedtroll]

Malifax, on 16 May 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Mech Warrior account for sale! Just saying.

Do you accept c-bills ? i have a sh*t load of it, lol !

[DaveRatters]

I read people saying "good riddance" to those who have decided to hang up their neurohelmet due to this skill tree mess - well I think you'll find that several things will happen - people will quit, new people are not coming in to replace them - and after seeing the skill tree I can't imagine that will change.

This will result in less population to find matches with, less spend for PGI to create more content or possibly more "enhancements" (perhaps this last bit is an advantage...)

Sad to say it seems to me to be the death knell - I couldn't believe just how horrible my ARC 5W wallowed about the maps - it was such a pleasure to play it pre-patch, now if it wouldn't cost anything to respec it I'd just rip all the "skills" off it.

Please please please revert this horrible mess.

[Savage Wolf]

DaveRatters, on 17 May 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

I read people saying "good riddance" to those who have decided to hang up their neurohelmet due to this skill tree mess - well I think you'll find that several things will happen - people will quit, new people are not coming in to replace them - and after seeing the skill tree I can't imagine that will change.

Actually a few people I know are returning because of it. So I think you might underestimate how much some of us actually like the skill trees and that it's actually going to help sell it to new players. That it will scare some away is too bad, but I don't see the doom and gloom.
But again, being for the skill tree I prefer it to be succesful and you prefer it not to. So our views are probably highly biased.

[DaveRatters]

Savage Wolf, on 17 May 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Actually a few people I know are returning because of it. So I think you might underestimate how much some of us actually like the skill trees and that it's actually going to help sell it to new players. That it will scare some away is too bad, but I don't see the doom and gloom.
But again, being for the skill tree I prefer it to be succesful and you prefer it not to. So our views are probably highly biased.

I would prefer it was reverted - what was so terribly wrong with the last system? I have played this game for over 4.5 years and have enjoyed it very much - but as I have said playing a well liked mech after skill tree felt more of a chore than fun.

And that's the point isn't it - this is a game, and games are meant to entertain - and as soon as it turns into a chore it is no longer functional as a game.

You may have a different need entertainment wise - and that is of course why there are more and varied types of games outside this one - this for me has changed from something I like to something I don't.

My response will be to let it settle back into something fun again or just leave it - I would prefer the former however I suspect that won't happen as PGI have invested too much time and hubris and pride will not allow them to abandon this skill system.

I'll perhaps return in a couple of months to see what happened. In many ways it may be a very positive thing in my case - it's summer now and I have lots of work to do on my old veteran motorbike - probably time much better spent (although much more expensive!)

[Insanity09]

The old system...

Had one and a half useless skills. Pinpoint was useless for everyone. Arm reflex was useless for any mech without arm weapons.
Didn't allow any variety.

The new system is a marginal improvement for vast complexity, obfuscation, and user unfriendliness.

The list of "enhancements" on each skilled mech is now laughable. So, so many. I pity the new player. On the plus side, they won't have the skills yet to cause that vast number of enhancements to appear, so win?

[Thaloc]

I'm guessing that the majority of the negative feedback here won't be accounted for all noticed, i suggest a very polite and constructive email to feedback@mwomercs.com. I sent them a very polite email showing them the screenshot of the uninstalled message with the title patch 1.4.115 feedback. I got a reply that my email is being forwarded to the relevant department for statistical feedback, which is more than what will probably happen than on here.

[Malifax]

Damnedtroll, on 17 May 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Do you accept c-bills ? i have a sh*t load of it, lol !

Cash, greenbacks, buckaroos, dollars, money.

[Yore]

I tend to agree, having played with a handful of my mechs and done the builds lastnight that I felt appropriate for their loadouts. I couldn't help but feel that this system is overly complicated and will drive players away. I understand that there needs sto be be more refinement for things such as community warfare and to fix attributes that were broken, but this solution is far too heavyweight.

Why not simply do a pilots skill tree per weight class given their proficiency in that class as they get better it rolls out to each mech in that class, however make a smaller tree for each mech so they can be customised for things like recon, brawling, range support etc.

BTW I also find the tree's for both Jump Jets and Auxiliary not necessary, it's not like mechs with JJ's are in an aerobatic display team or anything I can understand them needing heat efficiency and burn duration but thats it. Those trees just swallow points and and lead to an example I've seen where some light mechs are speccing into Auxiliary and just laying in advanced Salvo's of artillery and airstrikes repeatedly each match, there's no skill involved and it's just sniping but using a flare to call in the payload without giving away your position.

I've played quite a few games now and it needs serious revision as it currently stands, also one or two of my modules were purchased not long after the game got released (within the first 6 months) so I've had them for years I didn't receive the correct monetary reimbursement for them. Clearly as it stands i'm gonna need to play for months even with premium time to afford to convert all the surplus xp I had on mechs which were maxed out, why wasn't this converted to HXP??? why do i need to pay cb to convert it? surely this should have qualified as HXP since it was historically with that mech when the new patch arrived.

Well that's just my gripes and suggestion's, I hope it helps you guys come to some fruitful solutions.

Edited by Yore, 17 May 2017 - 01:41 PM.

[TB Nachtwulf]

I think "Death Knell" might be a bit premature...

[Savage Wolf]

Insanity09, on 17 May 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

I pity the new player.

Yeah, it's not new player friendly, but the skill trees have nothing on the new player unfriendlyness of ghost heat and just the mechlab. So if a new player can handle these things, it can easily handle the skill trees.

[Malifax]

Thaloc, on 17 May 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

I'm guessing that the majority of the negative feedback here won't be accounted for all noticed, i suggest a very polite and constructive email to feedback@mwomercs.com. I sent them a very polite email showing them the screenshot of the uninstalled message with the title patch 1.4.115 feedback. I got a reply that my email is being forwarded to the relevant department for statistical feedback, which is more than what will probably happen than on here.

My first step was to have my Civil War pre-order refunded. They want to kill my fun I am going to withhold my money. Simple capitalism will sort this mess out.

[Savage Wolf]

Malifax, on 17 May 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

My first step was to have my Civil War pre-order refunded. They want to kill my fun I am going to withhold my money. Simple capitalism will sort this mess out.

Except of course for the extra ones done in appreciation of the skill trees. Just like my new Mad Cat MK II preorder. It'll even out.

[Insanity09]

True, the mechlab is not the easiest thing to deal with. Ghost heat, meh, the warnings and weapon groups make that simple enough, though others may not find it so.

However, to add the skill tree on top of those... ugly.

[Brom96]

Savage Wolf, on 17 May 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

It'll even out.

Lets hope not .

But to try to clarify - I play on 9 year old PC (yeah, I know, but I live where I live). The only mechs that I found that work reasonably well for me were Stormcrows Prime (C) and Raven 3L (c). Becuase, when it gets close up and dirty, crow can get me out of the trouble when FPS drops bellow 20, which happens every time I have to face more then one mech with lasers zapping around. Raven is the same. Now, both mechs feel sluggish and slow, no way to pull me out of the trouble.

As someone posted before, it is just a sink and a nerf, nothing more. You can glorify it is much as you want, but, in reality, when we see what is working out, we shall all prety much choose the same "nodes", those that stay playing. Forget about the "customisation", "unique" mechs and whatnot.Change has been made for sake of changes, nothing more. For some, game is about customisation, for others about tactics, for other yet, about the fight. Well, this looks like OCD nightmare

[Savage Wolf]

Okay, so two mech have changed. Which ones changed to something you did like?

For me my old Catapult C1 has been given new life. I can now give it the boost it needed to be useful.

And yeah, there will be a new meta... What? You wanted us to keep the meta? And yeah, some skill configs will become meta, but as long as they are different depending upon mech and role, then it served it's purpose.

[Brom96]

If you satisfied, good for you. I am not. Whole skill tree looks more like a way to complicate the game and destroy player's routine. For what reason? Maybe akin to last year's minimap/rescaling thing? Or just a pure incompetence.

[Savage Wolf]

Brom96, on 17 May 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

If you satisfied, good for you. I am not. Whole skill tree looks more like a way to complicate the game and destroy player's routine. For what reason? Maybe akin to last year's minimap/rescaling thing? Or just a pure incompetence.

Nah, the complexity and confusion of the skill tree is just in the spirit of Battletech. If you figured out the mechlab, you should be more than ready to handle the skill trees. The only reason the old tree was easier was because there was no choices to be made in it. Except for the confusing rule of three thing. Which is now gone so they did make some parts easier.

But yeah, it could be done better and simpler without losing depth and customization, but if they wanted to change the game to be more simple, the skill trees are far from the top of the priority list of features needed to be changed.

So it's not that I don't agree that it could be done more simple. It just sounds hollow when the same playerbase wouldn't want to change a single rule of the mechlab to make it simpler. I'd love a modern mechwarrior. Sadly, we are stuck in ancient overly complicated ways of doing game mechanics, and it's not about to change.

[Brom96]

I am sorry, but I find mechlab completely usefull and well done - I am not sure what you reffer to. Mind you, my main interest is tactics, not the cutomisation. As for making ti simpler - you need to set your mechs, but if you do not understand what most of the nods do, nor how it works... Don't get me wrong, but I don't think the game needs a manual for this. If it does, who in the right mind will waste tiem on it?

[Savage Wolf]

Brom96, on 17 May 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

I am sorry, but I find mechlab completely usefull and well done - I am not sure what you reffer to. Mind you, my main interest is tactics, not the cutomisation. As for making ti simpler - you need to set your mechs, but if you do not understand what most of the nods do, nor how it works... Don't get me wrong, but I don't think the game needs a manual for this. If it does, who in the right mind will waste tiem on it?

Oh I've had to be the manual for just about all of my friends I invited to the game.
Endo-steel and Ferro-fibrious are confusing and don't get me started on Artimis which is an upgrade that just replaces launchers and why aren't they just different types of launchers just like you can mix LL and ER LL. And why are do clans have mechs where I can't change things like the engine. Omnipods, what? And why does my mech burn when I fire 4 PPCs at once?

Compared to all that a skill tree is much more familiar to new players.