655 replies to this topic

[Black Sunder]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/FrankenMech

Frankenmechs explained. FrankenMech != customized mech

[Tannhauser Gate]

Scratch building is not Battletech. It may be fun but so are Legos and neither belong in a Battletech sim. PGI has made huge efforts to keep MWO close to canon, to bring the rich timeline, factions, mechs, and historical events to the players more than any other MW or BT sim. Scratchbuilding makes ALL canon variants obsolete and replaces skill-based combat with uber mechs.

For the same reasons, Im also against open mechlabs that allow you to virtually create ubermechs on canon chassis. While this is not scratch building, it has the same effect of rendering TRO variants (with or with out limited customization) obsolete.

I want TRO variants as base models with the ability to do some limited weapon swap outs, buyable modules for abilities and systems, and keep it SKILL and ROLE based. Otherwise all you have is the arms race to assaults and scratch built would lead directly to that.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 27 March 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Except as we have assaults available from the start it's just who will pay the upgrade costs fastest.

[Javelin156]

So lets say they have no scratch building in your system. Those certain builds you dont care for actually exist on certain mechs with there normal variants. What are you going to do about those? Theres clan mechs that would blow your mind on the amount of weaponry they carry. You have over 382 posts though so im guessing your not new to the game.

I just dont understand how you can say scratch building is not part of battletech in some way.

[Ninja Chef]

By scratchbuild I assume you mean to have basic models and then the ability to customize to suit the playstyles of the individual player. But with some limits based on the base class and base model the player chooses in order to prevent battle of the uber-frankenmechs. I would love to have that level of customization because it seems as if the love I have for sniping and running is not as well supported in the classes I've seen.

Edited by Ninja Chef, 27 March 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Katalis]

LakeDaemon, on 27 March 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Scratch building is not Battletech. It may be fun but so are Legos and neither belong in a Battletech sim. PGI has made huge efforts to keep MWO close to canon, to bring the rich timeline, factions, mechs, and historical events to the players more than any other MW or BT sim. Scratchbuilding makes ALL canon variants obsolete and replaces skill-based combat with uber mechs.

I have to disagree with your first sentence. Battletech allowed for building custom mechs. Granted, if role played, this was a costly and time consuming process, but it was possible. Still if the players are willing to invest the money and time into a design, it should be something that could be built. I say could be, because they also need to have access to a mech factory that would be willing to produce it. Also there is the chance that while a design seems great on paper it fails miserably in the test phase. This would mean that the player spent a lot of money and the mech doesn't function properly. Just like some of the mech design quirks that you read about.

Quote

For the same reasons, Im also against open mechlabs that allow you to virtually create ubermechs on canon chassis. While this is not scratch building, it has the same effect of rendering TRO variants (with or with out limited customization) obsolete.

I want TRO variants as base models with the ability to do some limited weapon swap outs, buyable modules for abilities and systems, and keep it SKILL and ROLE based. Otherwise all you have is the arms race to assaults and scratch built would lead directly to that.

This I agree with. Mech labs were not available to every tom, dick, and harry out there. Innersphere field mechs could only be changed with a field kit. Some times a mech crew used a different weapon to replace a damaged one, but these were usually on reliable.

So to sum up: Mech labs bad. But a player should have the chance to design a mech for a substantial price, if they want to try. There is no garuantee that it will be successfull. Of course they can continue to try until it is. Or they go broke.

[BarHaid]

And this is how PGI makes money. I know I'd pay for it.

[Sym]

This is the way I see it...

If you opened up full customization Mech Lab then what is the point to having all the different canon mechs?

Now in MW3 which used a full Mech Lab had only 18 mechs to choose from. But with those 18 mechs you could make anything your heart desired.
There is a little over a 100 different mechs from 2750 thur 3025. So why whould the Devs go through ALL THE PAIN to implement these mechs if you're just going to customized them to be the same as any other mech within that tonnage? Just for an outer skin? Come on really? Are we that damn shallow?

I would like the ability to customize but a not as freely as in MW3.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Katalis, on 27 March 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

I have to disagree with your first sentence. Battletech allowed for building custom mechs. Granted, if role played, this was a costly and time consuming process, but it was possible. Still if the players are willing to invest the money and time into a design, it should be something that could be built. I say could be, because they also need to have access to a mech factory that would be willing to produce it. Also there is the chance that while a design seems great on paper it fails miserably in the test phase. This would mean that the player spent a lot of money and the mech doesn't function properly. Just like some of the mech design quirks that you read about.

<S> Katalis

Point well made but, imho, that’s a technicality. The vast majority of pilots from BT did not have scratch built mechs. They were not common place and certainly not enough to allow MWO players to create scratch built mechs and have MWO resemble the BT universe. So, of course, if you have millions of c-bills, engineers, access to the technology, and factories you can do it , but, in the context of the universe as whole, scratch built mechs were very very rare.

My point is that allowing players to have open access to scratch build mechs in an open and unrestricted mechlab would destroy MWO’s commitment to creating a BT sim and MWO would instantly become an uber mech battle game… not Battletech.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 27 March 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Ceefood]

Sym, on 27 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

If you opened up full customization Mech Lab then what is the point to having all the different canon mechs?

how about this as an idea - there is a full mechbay allowing customised mechs but you dont get xp in them so cant upgrade them except maybe with slots from other mechs ie. thermal vision slot.
So if you stay with canon you can get xp & enhance your mech eg. quicker turning, quicker reticle coordination, quicker heat dissipation but if you want a custom mech you lose access to those areas

[fearfactory]

I find it funny how people try to justify customization by bringing the board game into it. Yet, if the opposing side brings up the board game, they jump back on the "OMG this is a computer game" bandwagon. Make up your minds.

Yes. You have the ability to build custom units in BattleTech. However, the rules are somewhat optional. Basically, tournament games do not allow custom designs, meaning that one must stick to a printed record sheet. If there is no official record sheet it's not canon EVEN IF something existed in a novel or other source. However, if you decide to do it, you have to follow the build rules with no exceptions. The typical MechWarrior in the beginning of his/her career starts with a stock design. "Customization" usually results from some kind of negative factor like having a lack of supplies or from the result of having a limb blown off. There may be a lot of fiction that says otherwise, but the main BattleTech rulebook says never use fiction as rules. Every warrior does not get the same treatment as Victor Steiner Davion or Kai Allard Liao. AND not every BattleMech in fiction follows the rules (example being Vlad's Executioner).

EDIT: Your best bet would be to check refit classes in Strategic Operations. THAT's how it works. Not this "every 'Mech is an OmniMech" garbage.

Edited by fearfactory, 27 March 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[LackofCertainty]

Tweaks, on 17 December 2011 - 06:01 AM, said:

If you think weeks or days is too long, then think about skill training in EVE Online... It's real time too, and everybody's fine with it. Training a level 5 skill can take more than a month of real time. I don't see why intensive refits in MWO should take less if they are that worth it.

False.

Everybody is not fine with it, because I am a person who was turned off of eve because I had to wait weeks/months before I was able to try out something to see if I even liked it. I am one of the many who would be turned off if I was forced to wait days/weeks before I could tryout a new setup for my mech. If you would prefer it that way, that's fine, but don't pretend that everyone would share your view.

I feel like the devs have said that mechlab is going to be in the game, and it would be deceptive, imo, if they put in a limited/gimped version of mechlab. I'd rather they focus on balancing weapons so that customization doesn't break the game, instead of limiting my options as a player personally.

[FACEman Peck]

I brought one of the most answered topics in the forums back from the grave, and it's STILL gonna go strong!!!!!

Edited by FACEman Peck, 27 March 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[GlimmeringEcho]

I customize my mech to suit me and the result is usually completely dissimilar to the default load-outs. Most often the defaults are crap with no thought put in for actual battlefield performance. I am more interested in what hardpoint types/number are available and not what someone else thought would perform well. That was the case with MW4 but if MWO game play is drastically different, I will revise my thinking.

[LordDeathStrike]

LakeDaemon, on 27 March 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Scratch building is not Battletech. It may be fun but so are Legos and neither belong in a Battletech sim. PGI has made huge efforts to keep MWO close to canon, to bring the rich timeline, factions, mechs, and historical events to the players more than any other MW or BT sim. Scratchbuilding makes ALL canon variants obsolete and replaces skill-based combat with uber mechs.

For the same reasons, Im also against open mechlabs that allow you to virtually create ubermechs on canon chassis. While this is not scratch building, it has the same effect of rendering TRO variants (with or with out limited customization) obsolete.

I want TRO variants as base models with the ability to do some limited weapon swap outs, buyable modules for abilities and systems, and keep it SKILL and ROLE based. Otherwise all you have is the arms race to assaults and scratch built would lead directly to that.

google lego mechs, some of those builds def deserve to be used as in game models!

[Nik Van Rhijn]

LackofCertainty, on 27 March 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

False.

Everybody is not fine with it, because I am a person who was turned off of eve because I had to wait weeks/months before I was able to try out something to see if I even liked it. I am one of the many who would be turned off if I was forced to wait days/weeks before I could tryout a new setup for my mech. If you would prefer it that way, that's fine, but don't pretend that everyone would share your view.

I feel like the devs have said that mechlab is going to be in the game, and it would be deceptive, imo, if they put in a limited/gimped version of mechlab. I'd rather they focus on balancing weapons so that customization doesn't break the game, instead of limiting my options as a player personally.

Instant gratification = chaos. With unlimited customisation you end up with a very few min/max builds which are extremely efficient at killing other mechs. It's not what the game was intended for. Full customisation in PvP whether in a PC game or TT has always been a total failure.

[BrianMMXII]

My vote went to scratch build, but you HAVE to have pre fabs for noobs who wouldn't know how to build a balanced mech

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Many of the stock designs aren't particularly balanced, and they're certainly not optimised. The idea was to show your skill by winning despite the drawbaks. Not munchkinising your way out of them.

[Voidreaver]

Oh for ****'s sake, people...
Way I see it is simple enough. The devs put in a payload system as seen in MechWarrior 4, you know, using the different mounting bays to separate Energy, Ballistic and Missile weaponry, with the occasional multi-purpose (Omni) bay in certain 'Mech frames. Even there, I can see people turning a Vulture into what amounts to a Catapult, with extra Lasers.

If someone wants to make a Frankenmech, they pay for the parts they want. Torso off a Mad Cat? 4mil C-Bills. Torso rack off a Vulture? 1.5mil. Legs off an Atlas? Can't use Assault-class parts in a Heavy. It'd be expensive, and the prices are just examples. A Strider with a Bushwackers roof-mount launcher? I can see it. But with a Catapult's launchers? No.

If you're gonna go Frankenstein, your Mech's class should be limited to the class the torso is from.
Meaning no Assault 'Mech parts on a Strider torso, no Light-class parts on a Mad Cat torso. Follow that sense here?

And for the illusive, and not-seen-in-PC-game Colossus-class 'Mechs? Something THAT damn big is gonna cause a couple brain bleeds, whether or not it's a Frankenstein.

Edited by Voidreaver, 28 March 2012 - 06:14 AM.

[Redburn]

Voidreaver, on 28 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Oh for ****'s sake, people...
Way I see it is simple enough. The devs put in a payload system as seen in MechWarrior 4, you know, using the different mounting bays to separate Energy, Ballistic and Missile weaponry, with the occasional multi-purpose (Omni) bay in certain 'Mech frames. Even there, I can see people turning a Vulture into what amounts to a Catapult, with extra Lasers.

If someone wants to make a Frankenmech, they pay for the parts they want. Torso off a Mad Cat? 4mil C-Bills. Torso rack off a Vulture? 1.5mil. Legs off an Atlas? Can't use Assault-class parts in a Heavy. It'd be expensive, and the prices are just examples. A Strider with a Bushwackers roof-mount launcher? I can see it. But with a Catapult's launchers? No.

If you're gonna go Frankenstein, your Mech's class should be limited to the class the torso is from.
Meaning no Assault 'Mech parts on a Strider torso, no Light-class parts on a Mad Cat torso. Follow that sense here?.

And for the illusive, and not-seen-in-PC-game Colossus-class 'Mechs? Something THAT damn big is gonna cause a couple brain bleeds, whether or not it's a Frankenstein.

Just a curious question....

Exactly who is going to do ALL the in-game programming, animations, etc, to make this POS, or any other scratchbuilt POS, on a case-by-case basis, work in the game?

It's time for some of you to get a grip on reality......