655 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 January 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

You are cute Pht..why don't you try using source books from before the Invasion and novels from before the Invasion, to support your argument. Oh..right..the Tech you rely on doesn't exist prior to the Invasion..my bad!

The kell hounds source book mentioned is pre-invasion. For that matter, there's everything the first star league had, as well; and I posted a couple of designs that use only what used to be called lvl 1 tech; did you even notice?

There are valid and meaningful reasons to restrict the Mechlab, not the very least of which is the mw3 problem of all the 'Mechs being nothing more than walking gunbag cookie cutters; massive economy problems if they try and do a command economy to try and control an ultimately unrestricted mechlab, and the inherent unequality of chance caused by a tiered system of players, some with and some without the ability to turn their mechs into uber cookie cutters... and the problem of said top tier possibly competing for resources and such with lower tier players.

Unrestricted mechlabs are bad.

[NotNewHere]

I would like it t have a mechlab like the one in MW4, but with more limitations eg. you wouldent be able to make a mga assault laz mech due to wiring problems. or you couldent but to many ballistic weapons where they shouldent go, due to ammo storage problems. Obviously some mechs like the the Nova Cat would be allowed to do this.

So i guess that means i'm in in favour of...
"Complete pre-made armaments (Ability to customize afterwards) "

And by "Franken mech" I assume those annoying Executioner Assault las boats that ruin NH servers are what is meant.

PS, for those people who poptart with Supernova's, Stone Rhino 1's work just as well but have heavier armour.

[plodder]

There should be a Mech Lab without question.If you disagree, I understand the storied purism, yet the fluid dynamic of the individual's combat style, holds the desire to self-form/conform ability to such style without constraint. So, make that anxiety a tool. Constrained in a lesser Mech, the dreaded config, the only option for the pilot has, is to succeed! Either by kissing the chocolate doughnut, earning credits, royal favor, or the futuristic(sadly) sibko victorious. The Mechlab should not available without stent, favor, or cash. In this case, House, private profiteers, or even field repair unit modifications are dealt out accordingly.

How difficult it is to get to a mechlab slot is the real question to me, and my almost humble opinion.

[NotNewHere]

I forgot to mention this in my last post. You may well be able to FIT a gauss rifle on a storm crow, but officially a HGauss's recoil will rip of the arm of any mech that trys to mount it there. so after 2 or 3 shots I think a regular gauss rifle would rip of a light mechs arms in 2 or 3 shots. Just thought I should point that out.

[Ceefood]

I love how people keep forgetting that PGI are using a teamwork based approach to the game which has not been done in any previous mechwarrior game! if properly done then it may stem the flow of uber mechs

also if PGI are smart they wont allow level 3 tech - it was terrible to say the least - eg coolant flushes?

also people say like Pht that the designs he mentioned jst recently had zero heat - you need to remeber (maybe you do) that it would be zero heat after 10 seconds not instantly so you you fire all your weapons build up a alot of heat then you cool down to zero after 10 seconds - this means you may cook your mech to shutdown & ammo explosions (if you stock ammo) so while you may alpha strike someone you also shutdown & became a target for the rest of the team!!!

if PGI use the weapons table straight from the TT book and base it off of the TT turn which was 10 seconds then everything has pros/cons
1) yes you can be a med lasers boat & it can be nasty but their range is limited & they build a lot of heat - not as much as the damage but you still have to get rid of it - you are now also susceptible to long range fire
2) yes you can be an LRM boat but they have a minimum range to successfully arm and are not as accurate as ballistic or laser weaponry
3) yes you can be a ballistic boat but you have a problem with storing enough ammo which can also explode from direct hits & overheating

see just some basic stuff shows a pro & a con or two - a balanced design offsets some of the problems but is also not as effective as an alpha striker

[Gorith]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 January 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Gorith, IS Tech, 3049, no Clan Tech..go to it. Keep in mind, much of that lvl 2 and 3 stuff..it ain't around yet. And with luck, PGI will avoid the CotM stuff all together.

Actually tech level 1 vs tech level 2 =/= IS vs Clan... All clan gear MUST be tech level 2 or higher but that's all they have to do with each other

level 2 stuff starts showing up in TRO 3039

tech level one is as follows
Energy Weapons: Small Laser, Medium Laser, Large Laser, and PPC
Ballistic: AC/2, AC/5, AC/10, AC/20, And Machine gun (no Gauss is NOT tech level 1)
Missile: LRM 5, LRM 10, LRM15, LRM 20, SRM 2, SRM 4, and SRM 6
Melee: Hatchet
Armor: Standard only
Structure: Standard only
Engine: Fusion and ICE (No Fusion XL or Large ICE)
Heat Sinks: Standard only
Aditional equipment: Cargo Pod, Lift hoist, chainsaw, combine

That means anything in a mech that is other than that which is list is tech level 2 (gauss rifles, Ultra ACs, LBX, Streak SRM, FF armor, MASC, TAG, ECM, BAP all level 2)

[Pht]

Ceefood, on 01 January 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I
also people say like Pht that the designs he mentioned jst recently had zero heat - you need to remeber (maybe you do) that it would be zero heat after 10 seconds not instantly so you you fire all your weapons build up a alot of heat then you cool down to zero after 10 seconds - this means you may cook your mech to shutdown & ammo explosions (if you stock ammo) so while you may alpha strike someone you also shutdown & became a target for the rest of the team!!!

Yeah, I remember. Thing is, all 'Mechs operate on the same recycle; so in that area they're equal.

Quote

if PGI use the weapons table straight from the TT book and base it off of the TT turn which was 10 seconds then everything has pros/cons
1) yes you can be a med lasers boat & it can be nasty but their range is limited & they build a lot of heat - not as much as the damage but you still have to get rid of it - you are now also susceptible to long range fire
2) yes you can be an LRM boat but they have a minimum range to successfully arm and are not as accurate as ballistic or laser weaponry
3) yes you can be a ballistic boat but you have a problem with storing enough ammo which can also explode from direct hits & overheating

Actually, if memory serves, the solaris box set allowed the weapons to fire down into 2.5 second turns for it's dueling system.

As far as recycle and porting over the TT stuff for weapons, it's the heat that's the effective leash on recycle times. Yeah, in the TT implementation, all weapons fire on the same recycle, but the heat keeps you from firing them all the time.

Purely IMO, but I think that altering the heat output by some factor of the recycle to keep the TT weapons ability balance could work pretty well, while allowing the various weapons to recycle at different speeds.
If it fires faster than ten seconds, it gets the appropriate amount of heat added to it's specs... if slower, take some of that heat off of it.

[Pave Low]

I like the idea of having a Mech Lab so you can change the variant of your mech to include different weapons, targeting systems, heat sinks etc.

I like the idea of off-line level raising like Eve too

[Kristov Kerensky]

The Kell Hounds sourcebook is the only one you listed that's pre-Clan Invasion, and it does indeed cover the Phantom Mech..which, as you should know, FASA never described as anything at all, actually going so far as to state that the descriptions presented in story were hallucinations or near death experiences. It was a plot device that had no bearing on anything in the BTU's technology, it just WAS..can't be killing off a major plot character before he's finished all of the stuff we've ALREADY said he does AFTER that particular battle. Funny thing..they redo that battle 2 more times..Patrick faces Yorinaga and then Morgan faces him again and even include how it should work for Morgan Kell(only for him btw) in the Battle of Luthien sourcebook. It's not a tech toy that anyone else can get, it's a plot device, nothing more. You DO understand what those are don't you Pht? I only ask because you keep using them to bolster your arguments about what's in TT, and that's just..odd..to put it politely.

All Mechs the same design..someone only played a few ladder leagues I take it..sorry about that. Seriously Pht, the boating issue, it's been beat to death and back and it's bs, it was only prevelant in the ladder leagues because their own rules ENFORCED it. It wasn't prevelant in the planetary leagues at all, I know, I not only played in them I also RAN one, I know what got used in drops..literally had copies of every single mek file used in every single drop while I was running NBT(yes, we ran that tight of a ship in the original NBT, hacks weren't uncommon, sadly)..so..you really want to tell me how prevelant boating was again?

Will the masses use chassis and configs that are similar..yes, if they are shown to be forgiving and effective in the hands of the less skilled, that is a given, check out any FPSer or MMO on the market and you'll see that. And that's human nature at work, go with Stock only, no variants..what do you want to bet we'll see most people in the same Mechs in 3 months? Come on, I'll give you good odds even..it's a sucker's bet after all.

Gorith, IS lvl 2 Tech at the time MWO starts is really mostly not any better then the lvl 1 Tech..except for the electronics packages, those rock. FASA's way of going 'oops, sorry, we just fubar'd you folks with the Clans and their Tech, here, have this shiney thing to take your mind off it!'. I don't think FASA really thought ahead with the Clan Tech introduction..'here, have these awesome tools that totally obsolete the stuff you've been using for 6 years now!' They didn't alter the balance in BTech, they blew it to hell and ignored it as it died a lonely death. The lvl 3 stuff just made it worse, THAT should never be brought into MWO at all.

[plodder]

John Frye, on 17 December 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

Agro mechs and Industrial mechs were unarmed and people did modify them to have weapons and armor (they are mentioned in some of the books - Mercenary's Star comes to mind). However the authors made it clear that those kind of kludge battlemechs were massively inferior to true battlemechs.

farmers and agro mechs. modifications by stupid or ignorant men in their foolish pride..... Now a dispossessed, stranded Mechwarrior trying to cause any havoc as he can is another thing, and that warrior would never done this as choice, only need!

My only reason to reply like this is, bringing in mech modification and Agro/Industrial in the same concept page is like, talking to my Canadian friends about Football, and they talk about the cFL, or my soccer buddies bringing up their...um football, cough cough...

[Pht]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 January 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

The Kell Hounds sourcebook is the only one you listed that's pre-Clan Invasion, and it does indeed cover the Phantom Mech..which, as you should know, FASA never described as anything at all,...

I forget the exact page but I seem to recall it was page 57 - they specifically listed out the rolls to acquire the skill, how it worked in TT combat, and what to do with a character that managed to get said skill.

How is that "never describing as anything at all?"

Quote

You DO understand what those are don't you Pht? I only ask because you keep using them to bolster your arguments about what's in TT, and that's just..odd..to put it politely.

I know good and well what they are. What I find odd is that your very implied agreement that they are to be left out of the game shows that you understand that some things should be left out for gameplay's sake yet you reject an argument about sensibly restricting the Mechlab that stands upon the exact same reasoning.

Quote

...so..you really want to tell me how prevelant boating was again?

I haven't discussed boating in this thread, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

Quote

Will the masses use chassis and configs that are similar..yes, if they are shown to be forgiving and effective in the hands of the less skilled, that is a given, check out any FPSer or MMO on the market and you'll see that. And that's human nature at work, go with Stock only, no variants..what do you want to bet we'll see most people in the same Mechs in 3 months? Come on, I'll give you good odds even..it's a sucker's bet after all.

I'm not arguing that it's a bad thing or that it won't happen that people gravitate towards what the perceive as the "best setup," or that this tendency can be stopped.

I'm arguing that cookie cutter *Mechs* is a bad thing. When an unrestricted Mechlab is used, the only difference between 'Mechs is their visual outline; they are otherwise walking bags of guns, and usually the same two or three types of guns, and usually the 'mechs with the smallest profile that can carry the desired amount of these guns.

Edited by Pht, 01 January 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 January 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

[...]
Gorith, IS lvl 2 Tech at the time MWO starts is really mostly not any better then the lvl 1 Tech..except for the electronics packages, those rock. FASA's way of going 'oops, sorry, we just fubar'd you folks with the Clans and their Tech, here, have this shiney thing to take your mind off it!'. I don't think FASA really thought ahead with the Clan Tech introduction..'here, have these awesome tools that totally obsolete the stuff you've been using for 6 years now!' They didn't alter the balance in BTech, they blew it to hell and ignored it as it died a lonely death. The lvl 3 stuff just made it worse, THAT should never be brought into MWO at all.

Sure, the ClanTech did leave something to be desired balance-wise early on. FASA probably opened a can of worms there that held more than they could have foreseen. But FWIW PGI accoprding to current plans will have about a year to work on initial balancing before introducing ClanTech into MWO. Maybe enough to address some balancing issues? And yeah, agree about Lvl 3 stuff, that was sometimes so over the top that it did render the opponent without it all but useless.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Dlardrageth, on 01 January 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

Sure, the ClanTech did leave something to be desired balance-wise early on. FASA probably opened a can of worms there that held more than they could have foreseen. But FWIW PGI accoprding to current plans will have about a year to work on initial balancing before introducing ClanTech into MWO. Maybe enough to address some balancing issues? And yeah, agree about Lvl 3 stuff, that was sometimes so over the top that it did render the opponent without it all but useless.

From what the 3 Step podcast said, it looks like their answer to the Clan advantage is, leave it alone, it is what it is and it can be overcome. Tech restricted matches for those that want them, but you don't have to do that, which is what I love. IS tech is just flat out inferior to Clan tech, so you have to out think your opponent before you can try to out gun them, and that's what Mech combat is supposed to be, brains AND twitch, not just one or the other. Did in the TT game, and I've done it in NBT a few times, it's a great feeling to take down Clanners in IS Mechs with only IS Tech..that's when I want my Atlas to do the Thriller dance emote by god!

[Dlardrageth]

Uh... now I have this image stuck in my head of an Atlas with sparkling hand actuator and a top hat doing the Moonwalk... you're evil, Kristov!

[Derick Cruisaire]

With access to the appropriate facility and equipment, it should be perfectly fine to customize your mech. The easier the customization, the less time it should take to accomplish, but it should definitely take time.

I do not particularly care for the instant gratification of a "mechlab". For me it takes away from the flavor of the game. That these are mamoth, intricate machines, and making alterations to them is an undertaking that should not be without appropriate monetary and temporal investment, as well as the risk of failure and the consequences that come with it.

After all, the Battletech universe is littered with mechs that have weakened armor, damaged engine shielding, weapons that build up excess heat or are less accurate, etc... because of less than adequate repair jobs or technicians that did something incorrectly during a refit.

I tend to lean toward the role play aspect of the game and I think it would be fantastic if the Dev's put a mechanic into the game that would reflect the risk of fidgetting with these technological marvels. It would give people pause, and make them seriously consider the risk-reward aspect of any modification they intend to make. However, as this is not a role playing game, I would understand if that does not happen.

[Johnathon Henrick]

I must say Kristov you are right on in the last comment...I fully agree.. and thank you

[BarHaid]

Derick Cruisaire, on 01 January 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

With access to the appropriate facility and equipment, it should be perfectly fine to customize your mech. The easier the customization, the less time it should take to accomplish, but it should definitely take time.

I do not particularly care for the instant gratification of a "mechlab". For me it takes away from the flavor of the game. That these are mamoth, intricate machines, and making alterations to them is an undertaking that should not be without appropriate monetary and temporal investment, as well as the risk of failure and the consequences that come with it.

After all, the Battletech universe is littered with mechs that have weakened armor, damaged engine shielding, weapons that build up excess heat or are less accurate, etc... because of less than adequate repair jobs or technicians that did something incorrectly during a refit.

I think that this right here would be a fine limiter on an unrestricted Mechlab. If it takes more than two weeks and $50 hard cash to get your custom mech design on the field, what are you going to pilot until then? And what if three days before your mech is done, you spend all your time learning how easy it is to take down someone else's almost exact copy of your design? Sucks to be you.

Myself, I desperately want a ful Mechlab so I can test out my crazy ideas in real fire exercises. I'm definitely not a boater, and will probably die many inglorious deaths. I pray that I may pay for the privilege.

[Pinkamena Pie]

Saying that mech designers don't have behind the scenes considerations when designing mechs just shows that someone hasn't bothered reading the fluff behind the mechs. Of course, munchkins don't like to read the mech descriptions do they? It gets in the way of looking at the stats.

It's also irrelevant to go on about the fact that standard varients can have significantly different weapon loadouts. A catapult designed to fit 2 PPCs is a completely different prospect to a catapult which has had its LRMs ripped off and 2 PPCs welded on in a chop shop. I think most people would expect the factory varient to perform better than the chop shop varient, even if the limitations of the mech design rules do make them look the same on paper.

Sure, you can just stick to the money + time approach to modifications, but those will be hard to get right. The cost issue can easily mean that new players can't afford to even look at mechlab, whilst veterans consider the cost to be an insignificance. Likewise, using time as a balancer means that people with only a single mech spend time getting bored of the game, whilst richer players have spare mechs and again consider it to be a minor inconveniance. Sure, we've stuck to the TT rules, but at the expense of gameplay. This is why I think we should be willing to look at other potential balancing factors.
Also keep in mind that computers have advantages that TT wouldn't cope well with. As an example, TT pretty much requires a simple heat system sticking to whole numbers. A computer could easily deal with fractional heat. This opens up the possibility of a jury rigged laser causing 10% extra heat when fired, or jury rigged heat sinks only getting rid of 90% of heat. This would become a nightmare in TT, but on a computer would just result in the heat bar going down slightly slower.

[FACEman Peck]

Nightwish, on 01 January 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

I forgot to mention this in my last post. You may well be able to FIT a gauss rifle on a storm crow, but officially a HGauss's recoil will rip of the arm of any mech that trys to mount it there. so after 2 or 3 shots I think a regular gauss rifle would rip of a light mechs arms in 2 or 3 shots. Just thought I should point that out.

Just to point something out dude, not talking **** here, but the Victor in MW4 Mercs could mount a Heavy Gauss on its arm.

[Strum Wealh]

FACEman Peck, on 02 January 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Just to point something out dude, not talking **** here, but the Victor in MW4 Mercs could mount a Heavy Gauss on its arm.

By contrast, canonically (which I do believe that MW4 isn't):

Quote

​The Heavy Gauss Rifle is a new, deadly innovation by Lyran Alliance scientists introduced in 3061.
Applying their "bigger is better" philosophy to Gauss technology, the Heavy Gauss Rifle is one of the heaviest battlefield weapons in existence, and has a correspondingly high damage potential. Indeed, the recoil from the weapon is so great that the rifle cannot be mounted in a vehicle's turret or 'Mech's arms, as firing the rifle would essentially rip it off.
A 'Mech firing the rifle may even be knocked down by the recoil.

Moreover, it seems that there is no canon variant of the Victor that mounts a HGR (though a few do mount standard Gauss Rifles).
Also, the -5 and -5X variants of the Fafnir and the -2AX variant of the Annihilator (mounting iHGRs rather than "normal" HGRs; see here for illustration) must then incorporate some rather beefy gyros...