39 replies to this topic

[Clownwarlord]

Khobai, on 17 May 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

but even a kitfox wouldnt put a single point in the sensor tree if ECM didnt force it too

I disagree with you because you are forgetting about seismic sensor, sensor range, and target retention. All 3 very nice skills to help keep anyone alive longer, and best part ... can help you earn cbills (spotting assist, spotting damage, and ...)

Cbills man, I can help myself.

[Jay Leon Hart]

100m Seismic Sensor is worth 6 SP on any 'mech, at least for me. I seem to spend half my time getting to the fight and the other half waiting for everyone else to join in

[sycocys]

Khobai, on 17 May 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

yep the scout/info gathering role needs to be given to light mechs for free

they shouldnt have to spend skill points on it. they need all the skill points just to be minimally viable at combat as is.

Or a completely different set of node based on the roles mechs are designed to/supposed to play.

Really though, without a more in depth reward system and some sort of zero-sum skill tree system to equalize but differentiate roles there will continue to be 1 role - DPS. Opportunity lost on this one.

[Mystere]

Clownwarlord, on 17 May 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

ROLES!?!?! YOU WANT TO TALK ROLES!?!?!

Well I have one for ya.

I just booted in this morning and built my kit fox with 3 ams ecm 3 medium pulses. The role is Iron Dome. So basically I went after all ECM skills, all AMS skills, and all range skills. Lastly I went after the consumable table and got 5 consumable slots open 2 UAV, 2 Air, and 1 Cool Shot.

I walk along side bigger mechs protecting them from light mechs that try and squirrel them and at the same time provide what anti-lrm protection that I can. Also due to ECM and UAVs I can get close to enemy pop UAV and help spot the enemy.

Now the question is, how are your XP, c-bills, and match scores compared to the people you were protecting?

[AlexEss]

sycocys, on 17 May 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Why would they all of a sudden start doing that? There's just no incentive or actual change to the system to even encourage anyone to do be anything but dps primary.

To get roles they needed to implement more of a zero-sum system.

Why do people still use IS mechs..?

Same problem.. and i guess same reply.


Beforre there was not really any way to build very focused builds. Now there is... Not saying it is per se viable but neither are 99% of the IS mechs if we go by meta per ton.

[Khobai]

Quote

100m Seismic Sensor is worth 6 SP on any 'mech, at least for me. I seem to spend half my time getting to the fight and the other half waiting for everyone else to join in

yeah but detecting enemy mechs at 120m without LoS is something BAP should do for free anyway.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 17 May 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

yeah but detecting enemy mechs at 120m without LoS is something BAP should do for free anyway.

I would love that! I would equip it on more than just a dozen 'mechs, then.

[Khobai]

its the main reason for using BAP in tabletop, im surprised they didnt give it that ability in MWO

[Dracol]

Mystere, on 17 May 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Now the question is, how are your XP, c-bills, and match scores compared to the people you were protecting?

That sounds like a question asked by someone who is only looking out for one self.

For a support mech pilot, the only question that maters is: did we win?

[Stonekeg]

Khobai, on 17 May 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

Again the whole sensor tree should just get blown away.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'll put as many eyes on my potato as I want. 90 tons or 20.

Seriously, though. I like having the sensor tree there. I also agree with you that lights should naturally be aligned with their scouting role better than they currently are. It could come in the form of enhancements for that tree, though.

[Khobai]

blow away the whole sensor tree and take whatever good skills it had and put them in the operations tree

then just roll all the sensor skills onto light mechs which should be good at scouting without having to put a bunch of points into the sensor tree.

also balance ecm properly so you dont need to force people to spend skill points to balance it.

[Stonekeg]

Khobai, on 17 May 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

blow away the whole sensor tree and take whatever good skills it had and put them in the operations tree

then just roll all the sensor skills onto light mechs which should be good at scouting without having to put a bunch of points into the sensor tree.

also balance ecm properly so you dont need to force people to spend skill points to balance it.

That's a fair suggestion imo. Can't argue against it.

[Mystere]

Dracol, on 17 May 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

That sounds like a question asked by someone who is only looking out for one self.

For a support mech pilot, the only question that maters is: did we win?

Don't get me wrong. Winning is the only thing I care about. But apparently I am in the very small minority, based on the posts on these forums and on the queue percentages.

[Cementi]

mogs01gt, on 17 May 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

The issue is having to pay(nodes) to play. You really dont have an idea on how the trees affect the mech until lots of testing is performed which isnt free.

Yep I mean never mind all the PTS that was up that would have allowed people a way to test alot of this stuff. I mean setting up a download to test, provide feedback and on top of it get an idea how you were gonna build your mechs to save your money.....ya no that totally makes no sense at all. Guess thats why I did it.

I have no sympathy for anyone making these complaints. While some small values changed and trees were slightly changed enough is similar to the test server that if people could not be bothered to spend the small amount of effort to actually try it then to bad for them now.

[SFC174]

Cementi, on 17 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Yep I mean never mind all the PTS that was up that would have allowed people a way to test alot of this stuff. I mean setting up a download to test, provide feedback and on top of it get an idea how you were gonna build your mechs to save your money.....ya no that totally makes no sense at all. Guess thats why I did it.

I have no sympathy for anyone making these complaints. While some small values changed and trees were slightly changed enough is similar to the test server that if people could not be bothered to spend the small amount of effort to actually try it then to bad for them now.

Hold on now. First, plenty of people did the PTS and raised holy hell about its issues, which PGI largely ignored (except a couple gating nodes on firepower tree). Second, if you did the PTS, you know that actual combat drops were few and far between (about 30-45 min for me), so it wasn't like you could make changes and redrop and do an immediate back to back comparison. Yeah, some of the complaints (too many clicks ZOMG) are petty, but there are some valid issues people have with the skill tree. It may come down to preference, but we're all here to have fun.

[Johnny Z]

Dee Eight, on 17 May 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

One of the Javelins does...+100 meter sensor range

The Javelin is the most impressive new mech I have seen in a while. Distinctive profile, super fast. Its almost scary.

[Pixel Hunter]

im more angry about the quirk tax

you have TO PAY to get your stolen quirks back

[Khobai]

LIke I said I would just nuke the whole sensor tree and roll anything of value from it into the operations tree.


What I would do is simple. Id just have three different sensor types: basic, intermediate, and advanced

basic = 600m sensor range, this is the standard sensor suite used by most heavies/assault.

intermediate = 800m sensor range, this is the standard sensor suite used by most mediums/lights and heavies/assaults that have better than normal sensors (i.e. cyclops)

advanced = 1000m sensor range, this sensor suite used by lights/mediums that are dedicated scouting mechs (i.e. raven)


Id also remove ECM stealth completely. ECM would also not cockblock missiles. Those are not functions ECM should possess. Instead ECM should be able to sever people from sharing sensor information with their team (ECM disrupts C3 networks). ECM should also have a third mode called Ghost Mode that creates 1-2 false radar contacts. You could even require taking skill nodes to unlock C3 Disruption/Ghost Mode functions for ECM, thats fine too.


And this next part is optional, but id like to see a mechanic that makes it so weapons cant do damage past optimum range unless you have a sensor lock on the target. That makes getting sensor locks actually important and adds the beginning of sensor warfare/info warfare to the game. Id also like to see lights get a reward for any damage done past optimum range to a target they spotted. That rewards lights for for getting sensor locks and spotting for their team.


I mean PGI takes something that should be so simple and functional and makes it so complicated and non functional....

Edited by Khobai, 17 May 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

JackalBeast, on 17 May 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

Reading through a number of posts regarding the skill tree, and it seems like a number of players (not all) are displeased largely in part because they don't know what to do.
That and it seems that some fail to understand what the skill tree can actually mean for teams to set up for role play to an effect ie designate lights for for better info gathering etc. No, it's not pretty and no, it's not perfect but did I mention that my Ebon Jaguar is amazeballs?

I know what to do... I just do not the fact that PGI nuked the already clearly skewed Balance by making it worse than it was before. You could ALREADY do Info Gathering, the reason why you never did before and why only terribads will do it now is because A. There is literally zero reason to do so since we all know the maps and spawn points so every map only has an extremely limited choice of good positions to take & B. because your Lights will be Rewarded with NOTHING for doing it.

[Angel of Annihilation]

mogs01gt, on 17 May 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

The issue is having to pay(nodes) to play. You really dont have an idea on how the trees affect the mech until lots of testing is performed which isnt free.

Yeah this is one of my problems. With the tree being so extensive, you really need to be able to trial and error your way to a good build much like we do when we get a new mech and swap weapons and equipment, sometimes dozens of times before we find something that feels right. However you can't.

First of all, even if you had a previously mastered mech, your only getting 91 skill points which means you can only choose 91 out of 237 nodes to unlock. If you want to test something else that you didn't original select your paying 800 XP and 40k C-bills for it. So for maximum testing you need to grind out 146 more nodes or 116,800 XP and 5.84 million C-bills. Then you would have to grind countless more XP to be able swap things in and out and tweak your build. Hell by the time you truly did enough trial and error to have it prefectly tweaked for your mech, you would likely have had to play the mech through 100s of battles to grind the XP and C-bills needed, and that is potentially for each and every mech.

I mean if you grind enough XP and C-bills to unlock all 237 nodes on a mech, you should be able to swap those nodes out for free and it is pretty damn crazy that you can't.