91 replies to this topic

[Jiang Wei]

Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Point by point what follows describes why the old skill tree is better than the new. If you would like to provide counterpoints and add to the discussion, great! If you have nothing and just want to ***** or character assassinate, please take your misery elsewhere.

Now on to the list.

Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?

Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.

No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.

New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.

I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.

New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.

Looking forward to your responses!

This seems more like feelings and speculation than actual facts.

[JagdpantherX]

Ted Wayz, on 05 June 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

More choices but three minutes after you go through it the first time?

Only if you make the same choices over and over.

Which was what we had with the old skill tree.

If you can't remember what each tree does and arent able to pick which tree and where customized to the mech and its advantages under 4 minutes, then maybe this game is too much thinking for you.

The rest of us don't have a brain aneurysm making the choice of 1% more range or .75% less cooldown.

[Ted Wayz]

JagdpantherX, on 05 June 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

If you can't remember what each tree does and arent able to pick which tree and where customized to the mech and its advantages under 4 minutes, then maybe this game is too much thinking for you.

The rest of us don't have a brain aneurysm making the choice of 1% more range or .75% less cooldown.

Remembering is not the problem. But all you are doing is trying to get the mech back to where it was.

For instance, my hunchbacks have been operating fine for five years now. Now PGI comes along and says sorry but now you need to spend time to get them back to where they were for five years. For me that is a non-value add. Why should I spend time on a non-value add?

And even at 4 minutes each PGI has now asked for 20 hours of my time. I do not know how valuable your time is, but mine is very valuable. And given the choice between a net zero sum activity and doing something productive elsewhere I will choose the latter every time.

Anyway your attempt to be insulting was quite weak. And the "rest of us" hasn't proven true as I am not the only detractor or the only one making the same point.

Try again? Or was that the best you have?

Edited by Ted Wayz, 07 June 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[Ted Wayz]

Jiang Wei, on 05 June 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

This seems more like feelings and speculation than actual facts.

No, not really.

Does it take time to respec mechs- Yes

Were any new skills added- No

Is the reward system the same- Yes

Would I rather play than spend time in the mechlab- Yes

Can mediums now have as much armor as assaults- Yes

The only speculative comment regards new players. But we should now that piece in the coming months.

So 5 of 6 are indisputable facts. Care to retract your comment? probably not given your thread supporting the skill tree which does contain much speculation and feeling. How about you focus in on your thread? I have stayed away for the most part, are you asking me to contribute?

Edited by Ted Wayz, 07 June 2017 - 09:15 AM.

[Ted Wayz]

Innocent, on 05 June 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

There are many different variations.

There are until the meta emerges. Then people will just cut and paste that.

But the true gnashing of teeth will occur when the meta changes and people will have to pay to respec their mechs. The tryhards will not be that affected, it will be the casual players that bear the brunt.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 07 June 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Dollar Bill, on 05 June 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Here we go again...and again...and again. Why do you PGI White Knight Apologist keep trying to attach the end of needing 3 mechs with the Skill Maze? PGI could have chosen to do that a long time ago under the old tree, without crapping the Skill Maze on us. So, the 'rule of three' change (the only good one) stands by itself.

The Skill Maze has nothing to do with no longer needing three mechs to master. And to say it does is misleading, and shows you are just trying to bolster your weak argument in favor of the Skill Maze. So stop trying to use it as a plus for the Skill Maze.

If you are going to compare one sill tree to another, then you have to compare them in their entirety. You can't just cherry pick the parts you want to compare in order to bolster your argument.

Ted Wayz, on 07 June 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Remembering is not the problem. But all you are doing is trying to get the mech back to where it was.

For instance, my hunchbacks have been operating fine for five years now. Now PGI comes along and says sorry but now you need to spend time to get them back to where they were for five years. For me that is a non-value add. Why should I spend time on a non-value add?

And even at 4 minutes each PGI has now asked for 20 hours of my time. I do not know how valuable your time is, but mine is very valuable. And given the choice between a net zero sum activity and doing something productive elsewhere I will choose the latter every time.

Anyway your attempt to be insulting was quite weak. And the "rest of us" hasn't proven true as I am not the only detractor or the only one making the same point.

Try again? Or was that the best you have?

Every game that has ever re-worked its skill tree has required the players to re-skill their characters. It's the same across the industry. Whining about it in MWO just makes you sound petulant.

The only major difference, is that some people play Poké-Mech and collect a 100 or 200 or more Mechs, and then have to re-skill all of them. At the end of the day though, there are three facts you have to remember:

1) The community has been asking for this for years
2) Everyone knew this was coming months in advance
3) It's just part and parcel to changing a major game feature, and people need to suck it up and deal with it

I have over 140 Mechs and I'm not crying about it. I'm glad that we finally have a real skill tree and am willing to accept the re-skill that goes along with it. I've already decided to break up my re-skills into portions, doing a couple Mechs a week, and then playing them like they're all new Mechs I just bought. It's actually fun that way and greatly lessens the impact.

Ted Wayz, on 07 June 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

No, not really.

Does it take time to respec mechs- Yes

Were any new skills added- No

Is the reward system the same- Yes

Would I rather play than spend time in the mechlab- Yes

Can mediums now have as much armor as assaults- Yes

The only speculative comment regards new players. But we should now that piece in the coming months.

So 5 of 6 are indisputable facts. Care to retract your comment? probably not given your thread supporting the skill tree which does contain much speculation and feeling. How about you focus in on your thread? I have stayed away for the most part, are you asking me to contribute?

Actually, that's not all correct and is really just more emotional hyperbole. For example, the Reward System and the Skill Tree are two separate systems, so who cares if one changes and the other doesn't? Another example is your claim that no new skills were added. That is entirely bunk and anyone who has spent anytime in the new skill tree knows it.

Some people just get so emotional though, that they can't help but post garbage all the time.

[MischiefSC]

Except the meta is fine tuned enough in the skill tree that it's not cut and dry. Not everyone plays exactly the same and the skill tree gives alternate ways to get to a similar conclusion.

On occasion when some comp tier players are slumming it, err, playing in FW or group queue and the like I play with people from Emp, SJR and some other top performing players and teams. It was hugely gratifying to see that there was NOT a clear consensus on skill tree stuff. Sure, some basics like certain nodes being worthless but even what trees got what priority varied from player to player. Some skewed more to mobility, others survival, some said ops was good to stack others said it wasn't, etc.

I don't think you're going to see real cookie cutter skill tree stuff. It Is granular enough to let people drill down not just on the mechs performance but their own.

Sure, it's got plenty of room to improve, especially with usability. However I'm finding its inclusion a real positive to the game.

[Asym]

At some point, everyone on this topic has said something important....

The skill tree has potential and provides choices.

The new skill tree isn't that hard to use nor time consuming.....

The new skill tree, in some mech classes is either a benefit or a liability.....

The new skill tree is time consuming if you have a brand new mech and are mastering it as you go....

For my new Stormcrow, it took 143 games. At some midway point, there were 20+ losses in a row and I'm sure some of you will say "well, that's because you don't know what you are doing..." Which, is true! A NEW UN-MASTERD MECH !!!!

The new skill tree has divided the MWO community.....
True.
Many have in fact left and as usual, several forum commentators alluded to the fact that "they were idiots or potatoes anyway"....

The new skill tree is just another change, so 'get over it and mech on".....
Ture. Especially for those of you whose mech's benefitted.
False. For those of us with less than 10 mechs who mechs have been pernemtaly degraded and the skill tree can't possible return them to their pre-skill tree capabilities.

For me, the 143 games deflated any hope....... No mattered what I did, it didn't matter and how is that "value added"?

I'm here less than 4 months now and I really love the concept of the game itself. But, it's a whole lot less fun now.....

[MischiefSC]

Asym, on 07 June 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

At some point, everyone on this topic has said something important....

The skill tree has potential and provides choices.

The new skill tree isn't that hard to use nor time consuming.....

The new skill tree, in some mech classes is either a benefit or a liability.....

The new skill tree is time consuming if you have a brand new mech and are mastering it as you go....

For my new Stormcrow, it took 143 games. At some midway point, there were 20+ losses in a row and I'm sure some of you will say "well, that's because you don't know what you are doing..." Which, is true! A NEW UN-MASTERD MECH !!!!

The new skill tree has divided the MWO community.....
True.
Many have in fact left and as usual, several forum commentators alluded to the fact that "they were idiots or potatoes anyway"....

The new skill tree is just another change, so 'get over it and mech on".....
Ture. Especially for those of you whose mech's benefitted.
False. For those of us with less than 10 mechs who mechs have been pernemtaly degraded and the skill tree can't possible return them to their pre-skill tree capabilities.

For me, the 143 games deflated any hope....... No mattered what I did, it didn't matter and how is that "value added"?

I'm here less than 4 months now and I really love the concept of the game itself. But, it's a whole lot less fun now.....

What mech?

[Yellonet]

No. Clearly the new is better. New always beats old. Why if not better would it be new?

Spoiler

Seriously.

[Phoolan Devi]

Ted Wayz, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Point by point what follows describes why the old skill tree is better than the new. If you would like to provide counterpoints and add to the discussion, great! If you have nothing and just want to ***** or character assassinate, please take your misery elsewhere.

Now on to the list.

Time sink- I love people reading posts where people say, "After an hour of playing with the new skill tree my mech performs just as well as before". So you spent an hour to end up where you started. And you think that is a good thing? Then I guess your time is not that valuable or maybe you do not own that many mechs (because maybe your time is not that valuable). Question, would you spend an hour in line just to end up at the back of the line?

Well, if there is change, someone has to imvest time. On the other hand, just skill up the mech you want to play right before you play it. Skilling up all your mechs at once is hard, since, if you don't play them you won't know if you skilled them right.

Quote

Adds nothing new- What new features were added with this glorious skill tree? Zero, zip, nada. We already had what this new skill tree had to offer in simpler form. Now if there was a hand-to-hand tree or a field repair tree or a mech commander tree or just any new feature then there would be reason to create a new tree. But instead we are praising PGI for giving us something we already had.

There is plenty of new and improved things in the new tree. More than 2 consumable slots, more modules you can equip than before, Duration reduction, range Extension, armor enhancement etc pp

Quote

No new reward system- Day one hour one and people are giving instructions on how to avoid useless nodes. So that means PGI spent time and money giving us a skill tree with something that we already have and that we already do not use. Creating new rewards that would promote all nodes to be used...that is crazy talk! Old tree is fine for same old reward system.

The skill tree has nothing to do with the reward system, so why bring it up? It's a totally different ballpark!

Quote

New skill tree is woe for new players- People are saying, "This is great for new players. It gives them a sense of progression!" Huh? How much "progression" is to be had with low player populations and the gates open between T1 and T5? How much fun will it be for a new player to pilot a new mech with no nodes unlocked versus a bloodthirsty try hard with max firepower destroying them in one shot and max armor they can't pierce? The new skill tree is a seal clubbers wet dream. The old skill tree in and of itself did not create a huge separation between new and old players.

The new skill tree hugely favors new players since it is a huge reduction in grind! Benefits from modules are now easily unlockable for new players. So, the gap between skilled and unskilled mechs is faster to close now for new players!

Quote

I like to drive mechs- the new skill tree has a more pronounced effect on how well you perform than with the old skill tree. Don't believe me? Find a friend that doesn't know how to play beyond having run the tutorial. Let them pilot your fully skilled Atlas and you pilot an Atlas with no skill nodes unlocked. Let me know how that goes. Your worth should be proven on the battlefield, not the mechlab.

First off, as second point you are claiming, there is nothing new amd now you are saying the new skill tree has a bigger effect. You contradict youself right here. Second, you as an experienced player in an unskilled Atlas would rip the new player in a skilled Atlas apart in no time!

Quote

New skill tree, creating medium assaults since 2017- Lastly, the old skill tree you could tell the difference between a medium and an assault. The new skill tree it can be impossible. A fully skilled Vindicator should not have 9 less front CT armor than a non-skilled Boar's Head. Period. That is just plain broken.;

Well, somehow true, but only applies to a few chassis and those chassis were obsolete before the new skill tree and I for my part am happy that lots of obsolete mechs have a revival just because of the skill tree! It creates much more dibersity on the battle field and this diversity is due to the new skill tree.....and because of this and all the points I made before, the new skill tree rocks!