80 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 May 2017 - 12:21 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out.

I've been screaming this from the start and now ya'll see the light.

So now i'll take my triumph through terra and a golden crown with "i told you babies so" engraved on it.

[AssaultPig]

bad use of data alert

bad use of data alert

for one thing IS drop decks have more tons; they take more per-mech damage to kill because they're bringing heavier mechs than their clan counterparts

this also doesn't capture the fact that an IS XL mech simply dies when it loses a ST, while a clan mech that loses a ST can potentially get several more volleys off despite the fact that it probably doesn't take much more damage to kill it

Edited by AssaultPig, 18 May 2017 - 12:28 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Eh...not sure I agree with your assessment

Especially not in a CW environment, chock full of Potato Land antics. The things I saw...

[Lily from animove]

AssaultPig, on 18 May 2017 - 12:27 AM, said:

bad use of data alert

bad use of data alert

for one thing IS drop decks have more tons; we should expect their mechs to take more damage to kill because they're bringing heavier mechs

this also doesn't capture the fact that an IS XL mech simply dies when it loses a ST, while a clan mech that loses a ST can potentially get several more volleys off despite the fact that it probably doesn't take much more damage to kill it

ok thats indeed a point, how could we calculate that additional tonnage out of the equation? How much more HP did those extra tonnage make the IS field? But in regards of Faction play the tonnage adjustments and hp quirks quite nicely show it is balanced that way.

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

Eh...not sure I agree with your assessment

Especially not in a CW environment, chock full of Potato Land antics. The things I saw...

I know it needs a lot of assumptions, if we guess that IS had a load more potatoes, it would even mean they died faster making the IS mechs in proper hands last longer than clanmechs in equally proper hands?

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 May 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

So you're telling me all IS 'mechs have the same structure and armour quirks? They don't.

Bad Clan players will always deny they have better tech.

[Jungle Rhino]

Wouldn't the obvious answer be that a lot of IS mechs just carry std engines so they are actually tougher than a Clan XL?

[Lykaon]

Did you deduct the friendly fire damage from the total damage done?

The clan pilots inflicted 28,298,490 more damage to their own team mates than inner sphere pilots did.

Also the clans destroyed nearly 50,000 more mechs than the inner sphere. 49,683 more kills to be exact. So what accounts for the higher kill ratios?



Also this data is pretty much old news since the skill tree is out and changed much of the playing field and we have yet to gather data in sufficent quanities to even begin to speculate on the new balance of MWo.

Edited by Lykaon, 18 May 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Lykaon, on 18 May 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

Did you deduct the friendly fire damage from the total damage done?

The clan pilots inflicted 28,298,490 more damage to their own team mates than inner sphere pilots did.

Also the clans destroyed nearly 50,000 more mechs than the inner sphere. 49,683 more kills to be exact. So what accounts for the higher kill ratios?



Also this data is pretty much old news since the skill tree is out and changed much of the playing field and we have yet to gather data in sufficent quanities to even begin to speculate on the new balance of MWo.

No i haven't, and actually, IF we do, we have to include it.
But I amnot sure if the damage done by IS emchs does include IS emchs damage done to clanners AND FF.

So do I have to caclulate:

187,513,848 -2,999,834 + 3,401,998 to know how much damage the clans received?



Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 534,019
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 583,702

Total Damage Done by IS Mechs: 187,513,848 (does this include FF by IS mechs?)
Total Damage Done by Clan Mechs: 215,811,338 (does htis include FF by clanmechs?)

Total Friendly Fire done by IS Mechs: 2,999,834
Total Friendly Fire done by Clan Mechs: 3,401,998


but generally more kills is already going into the damage/kill ratio by calculating damage received/mechsdied. Only the distribution by FF is uncertain by not knowing if damage done by is/clan includes their friendly fire or not.

however IS did 1,599%FF
and clans did 1,576%FF

so in the end it wouldn't change much of the overall outcome/mech. thats an inaccuracy about +-5damage/mech

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 May 2017 - 01:24 AM.

[Zergling]

Another problem is that those stats don't have a breakdown for standard vs XL engined mechs.

Almost all the Clan mechs would have been running XL, but it is likely a fair number of the IS mechs were running standards, and IS mechs with standard engines generally are tougher than Clan mechs.

Edited by Zergling, 18 May 2017 - 01:25 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Zergling, on 18 May 2017 - 01:24 AM, said:

Another problem is that those stats don't have a breakdown for standard vs XL engined mechs.

Almost all the Clan mechs would have been running XL, but it is likely a fair number of the IS mechs were running standards, and IS mechs with standard engines generally are tougher than Clan mechs.

Doesn't matter,s as it would proof the correct choice between STD or XL dependign on the chassis makes an overal equal between both techs possibilities to choose from. And it would eman that STD in some cases is even superior to clan XL.

[Zergling]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

Doesn't matter,s as it would proof the correct choice between STD or XL dependign on the chassis makes an overal equal between both techs possibilities to choose from. And it would eman that STD in some cases is even superior to clan XL.

Damage taken before a mech dies is only one an indication of how durable the mechs are, which is only one part of tech balance, so you are drawing too many conclusions from the limited data available.

And I don't think anyone argues that IS mechs with standard engines tend to tank more damage than Clan XL mechs, the question with comparison is 'is it worth it?'.
Without other stats for IS standard engine mechs like damage/kills done per life and W/L ratio, there simply isn't enough data to draw conclusions.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

Doesn't matter,s as it would proof the correct choice between STD or XL dependign on the chassis makes an overal equal between both techs possibilities to choose from. And it would eman that STD in some cases is even superior to clan XL.

Aside from needing the space - 2x LB10X for IS, 2x Gauss for Clan - under what circumstances is a STD superior to a Clan XL? Or is it just that one, single case?

Also, how may Clan BattleMechs do you run with a STD engine? If none, why not?

[Lily from animove]

Jay Leon Hart, on 18 May 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

Aside from needing the space - 2x LB10X for IS, 2x Gauss for Clan - under what circumstances is a STD superior to a Clan XL? Or is it just that one, single case?

Also, how may Clan BattleMechs do you run with a STD engine? If none, why not?

The only clan battlemechs I have are the Supenrovas and I haven't fielded them yet so all my mehcs are omis with XL's
And if you palyed FW during this evena nd know which IS emchs fielded IS you know how painfull they were They are worse than some of the XL mechs. Superiority of STD comes fom the survivability and when your group pushes and the beginnign emchs are STD wielding mechs you soak up lot of damage and generate heat on the clanside to make them get eaten afterwars by the more heatefficient IS weapons of your teammates. However if people paly it like 12 man solo groups, then sure it won't work well ever.

[SmokedJag]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

It's the dropdeck tonnage. Inner Sphere can bring multiple 85 tonners or feasibly bring a 95-100 ton assault. These take more work to kill.

They're also very effective if used correctly...

[Koshirou]

Jungle Rhino, on 18 May 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

Wouldn't the obvious answer be that a lot of IS mechs just carry std engines so they are actually tougher than a Clan XL?

Indeed.

A std engine IS mech with both side torsos shot off is (in almost all cases) mission-killed; such a 'stick' will often simply be ignored until it is convenient to polish it off. But statistically, it will still take a considerable amount of damage to actually kill.

An XL engine Clan mech with both side torsos shot off dies immediately. Which is not a difference tactically (except in very rare cases), but a major difference statistically.

Edited by Koshirou, 18 May 2017 - 01:48 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

Doesn't matter,s as it would proof the correct choice between STD or XL dependign on the chassis makes an overal equal between both techs possibilities to choose from. And it would eman that STD in some cases is even superior to clan XL.

The whole point is moot, because what do you define as "better"?
Is getting killed later better, because even while you tank more damage away you can not dish out equal damage to the Clan?
To carry this to the extreme:
The super-tanky IS mech can stand 2 minutes of clan fire without dying, because its engine is just making it so robust.
The super-fragile Clan mech can stand 2,2 minutes of IS fire without dying, because IS weapons are just so few and weak.
Guess what, Clan wins the game.

And it actually just looks like this:
Although Clan needed (FF corrected) 375 damage for a kill and IS only 358, Clan killed 49683 more mechs than IS (around 8,5%). Should be the other way round if it is balanced, right?

Since we are all playing in the same game-time, this also gives us some nice speculative/partly deducible information about TTK, which is the real issue here. In spite of needing more damage to kill an IS mech, the TTK seems to have been shorter, since Clan was able to kill more mechs overall in the same game time..
Love statistics...

[Scyther]

It's because IS pilots are actually better, from having to work with inferior equipment, and focus their damage on kill-shots rather than spraying it all over the place like the Clan rabble do...

Well okay, on a more serious note, in many of my Tuk3 battles, Clan players were shooting from way the hell back and washing lasers all over me, or PPCing in my general direction hoping to knock off a little armor before range closed. Also, far more Clan pop-shotting than IS, from what I saw. Further, Clan mechs actually bring and use LRMs more often, because the IS teams don't have blanket ECM coverage like many/most Clan teams do. IS pilots in general have to wait until the range is shorter and aim is better. And lastly, I've seen more than one Clan team farm damage and components for points towards the end of battle, something I only recall seeing IS do once.

These are all small effects but could easily add up to more spread damage for Clan shooters. Of course also the increased armor/structure on some mechs although it is hard to quantify how much difference that makes.

(Note that the above are my personal observations from Tukayyid 3 and other FP matches, and not something I have solid data to back them up.)

Really, you are trying to make an issue of 17-18 damage dealt per kill with an average tonnage difference of 5-6 tons per mech. A 55-ton Shadowhawk carries 370 armor and a little more structure than a 50-ton Hunchback at 338 armor and a little less structure. That's a 9% difference in armor for 5 tons, vs. your 5% difference in damage needed per kill. So yeah, in fact, Clan wins in the damage and kills AND survivability department right there.

Clan tech deniers are really gonna have to up their game. Their arguments tend to be flimsy, opinion based, anecdotal, factually incorrect, and/or not really addressing the full picture.

Edited by MadBadger, 18 May 2017 - 03:17 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

Are you serious? Plenty of IS mechs uses Std engines to not get two-shot by Clan alphas, such as the Thunderbolt.

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

Doesn't matter,s as it would proof the correct choice between STD or XL dependign on the chassis makes an overal equal between both techs possibilities to choose from. And it would eman that STD in some cases is even superior to clan XL.

If running as a stick for several more seconds and surviving one more alpha counts as superior, then whoopdidoo.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 May 2017 - 03:07 AM.

[Khobai]

IS is OP clearly