80 replies to this topic

[Reptilizer]

Lily from animove, on 19 May 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

yes it does, but the amount of damage required for a kill is extremely similar. So while durability is rather equal in terms of damage/kill, clans still killed more mechs.

But damage is irrelevant, kills help win the game.

razenWing, on 19 May 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

You are right, you caught me on a mistake, but not one that you point out.

*snip*

5 am math... always give me a headache.

I did not intend to do finger-pointing. Just wanted to make my take on the numbers clear.
Sorry if my post appeared smart arsed.

[Lily from animove]

Reptilizer, on 19 May 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

But damage is irrelevant, kills help win the game.
.

While this may be, you require damage to kill mechs and amongts the good palyers killign efficiently means trying to kill in the most efficient ways. which means if the average IS mech would be more efficent to kill due to XL's the damage/kills would also be significantly lower.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 May 2017 - 01:44 AM.

[Scyther]

Lily, please, when it is pointed out that the average IS mech is 5 tons heavier than the average Clan mech (in FP), and thus has on average 32 more armor, more structure, and possibly a few quirks, when the Clan mechs are shooting from farther out and spreading damage more, then obviously it's going to take a tiny amount more damage to kill them.

That's not a survivability balance, that's the tonnage difference.

You and Gyrok need to stop reading only the replies that support your tech-denial and pay a little more attention.

Edited by MadBadger, 19 May 2017 - 01:51 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Lily from animove, on 19 May 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

While this may be, you require damage to kill mechs and amongts the good palyers killign efficiently means trying to kill in the most efficient ways. which means if the average IS mech would be more efficent to kill due to XL's the damage/kills would also be significantly lower.

That is pure speculation. Are we drifting in "better/more efficient players with faction xy" territory here?

A relevant (for purpose of winning the game) fact is, Clan killed more Mechs than IS.
A fun fact (but not relevant for winning) is, they needed more damage per mech to do so, which they did...

[sub2000]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

ok thats indeed a point, how could we calculate that additional tonnage out of the equation? How much more HP did those extra tonnage make the IS field? But in regards of Faction play the tonnage adjustments and hp quirks quite nicely show it is balanced that way.




I know it needs a lot of assumptions, if we guess that IS had a load more potatoes, it would even mean they died faster making the IS mechs in proper hands last longer than clanmechs in equally proper hands?

the big percentage of the damage sponges: battle-masters, atlases, hbk 4sp, marauders have st. The king of the mediums blackjacks are small enough that with the speed they run they spread damage nicely over all components.
The difference in team-damage numbers shows that clan alphas when not pin-point are let say politely less precise and spread nicely over environment: mech components, friendlies, mountains. Of course one shouldn't forget lrms and srms, and of course streaks. Clan streaks I've seen enough on the battlefield, actually less in scout missions (more spl and uac than anything else) than in invasion. Your numbers are pointless, because 1) you put invasion adn scounting in the one basket, 2) you forget about eject. All big groups i fought against had at least 4 ejected per match. At least ones all 12 had ejected (they were on the way farming dropzones while we were on the way to generators).

[Zergling]

More stats are up.

Interesting ones:

Quote

IS Mechs by Mech Class
Assault - 137,067
Heavy - 298,339
Medium - 276,339
Light - 86,309

Clan Mechs by Mech Class
Assault - 83,365
Heavy - 282,525
Medium - 287,505
Light - 147,128

Total proportions for each mech class, IS vs Clan:
Assault = 17.18% vs 10.41%
Heavy = 37.38% vs 35.29%
Medium = 34.63% vs 35.91%
Light = 10.81% vs 18.38%

Those stats appear to indicate a heavily skewed weight balance, with Clans running much lighter mechs on average.


Then there's the averaged weight of the top 20 mechs played for each faction:
Inner Sphere = 62.38 tons
Clans = 53.22 tons

So on average, IS was likely running around 17.22% heavier mechs than Clans.


It should be noted that when comparing a 50 ton to 60 ton mech without any armor/structure quirks and 5 points of rear torso armor, the side torsos of the 60 tonner has 17.91% more hit points, while the center torso has 26.37% more hit points.
And most pubbies run with more than 5 points rear armor, so the difference is even larger.

With armor/structure quirks on IS mechs further increasing their hit point advantage, they should have sustained substantially more damage than the 17.91% to 26.37% figure before dying, yet they only sustained 5.13% more damage.


tl:dr Closer examination of the event statistics shows IS mechs are taking substantially less damage to destroy for their tonnage than Clan mechs, despite armor/structure quirks.
The only reason IS mechs took more damage per death in the event, was because of greater average tonnage per mech.

Edited by Zergling, 19 May 2017 - 03:57 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

Just run a simple math, OP. IS has 25 tons advantage over Clans--IS 265: Clan 240. Average damage required to kill IS mechs vs. Clan mechs--IS 369: Clan 351.

IS damage taken before death ratio compared to Clan is 369 / 351 = 1.05:1

IS tonnage to Clan tonnage ratio is 265 / 240= 1.1:1 (not even including IS durability quirks, which can offer several tons of durability benefits, per mech)

What does this mean? The math clearly shows that IS mechs actually die FASTER than Clan mechs if they were even tonned, and this is did not even factor in the additional "ghost tonnage" durability quirks provide. So yeah, Clan tech is still superior, and Clan/IS XL still need to be balanced.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 May 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Zergling, on 19 May 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

More stats are up.

Interesting ones:


Total proportions for each mech class, IS vs Clan:
Assault = 17.18% vs 10.41%
Heavy = 37.38% vs 35.29%
Medium = 34.63% vs 35.91%
Light = 10.81% vs 18.38%

Those stats appear to indicate a heavily skewed weight balance, with Clans running much lighter mechs on average.


Then there's the averaged weight of the top 20 mechs played for each faction:
Inner Sphere = 61.42 tons
Clans = 52.43 tons

So on average, IS was likely running around 17.15% heavier mechs than Clans.


It should be noted that when comparing a 50 ton to 60 ton mech without any armor/structure quirks, with 10 points of rear torso armor, the side torsos of the 60 tonner have 19.35% more hit points, and the center torso has 27.91% more hit points.

And another relevant part;

Quote

IS being destroyed Mechs by Mech Class

• Heavy - 229,610
  
• Medium - 187,389
  
• Assault - 108,548
  
• Light - 58,155

Clan being destroyed Mechs by Mech Class

• Heavy - 207,727
  
• Medium - 174,412
  
• Light - 88,287
  
• Assault - 63,593

Compared to Clan, IS lost;
70.7% more Assault 'mechs
10.5% more Heavy 'mechs
7.4% more Medium 'mechs
34.1% less Light 'mechs

[ingramli]

The difference of drawback of xl for two camps, ST lossing death, and loss of (probably) half of your weapons, 40% cooling and 20% speed is too big to justify, this unbalance should not be balanced by means of quirks or weapons difference.....

[Zergling]

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

And another relevant part;

Compared to Clan, IS lost;
70.7% more Assault 'mechs
10.5% more Heavy 'mechs
7.4% more Medium 'mechs
34.1% less Light 'mechs

Proportion of each weight class destroyed, IS vs Clan (total deaths per weight class divided by total deployed per weight class):
Assault = 79.19% vs 76.28%
Heavy = 76.96% vs 73.53%
Medium = 67.81% vs 60.66%
Light = 67.38% vs 60.01%

So in all weight classes, Clans had a better survival rate.

Edited by Zergling, 19 May 2017 - 03:40 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Zergling, on 19 May 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Proportion of each weight class destroyed, IS vs Clan (total deaths per weight class divided by total deployed per weight class):
Assault = 79.19% vs 76.28%
Heavy = 76.96% vs 73.53%
Medium = 67.81% vs 60.66%
Light = 67.38% vs 60.01%

So in all weight classes, Clans had a better survival rate.

I think this is the proverbial nail in the coffin to the thread, yes?

Spoiler

[Sjorpha]

Lily from animove, on 18 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

How does it then come that he average damage per killed mech is:

IS 369
Clan 351

Sure these statistics include nearly dead mechs that didn't die and some other conditions. But both sides have them. and when the IS mech is said to be sooo much more squishy how can it be that the average damage needed to kill an IS mech was actually higher than for clanmechs?

For me this shows that durability with the quirks the IS mechs have for armor and HP quite balance that out. Otherwise I want to see all those "clam XL Op" people to exlain me why the IS isn't having a significantly lower damage/mechkill ratio.

I just guess clan XL is as OP to some people, as LRM's are OP to some poeple.

This is a conflation of category fallacy.

Clan XL is overpowered compared to IS XL and standard engines, as in: it's strictly better, a lot better in fact.

Some IS mechs tank a lot of damage because of strong structure quirks, and to some small extent because of standard engine builds.

These are separate issues, the tankiness of some IS quirked chassis doesn't help with the engine imbalance for chassis that don't have those quirks. You'd have to give every single IS mech strong durability quirks for that to become true.

So Clan XL is indeed too strong compared to other engines, and that should be fixed, either by improving the other engines or by nerfing Clan XL to their power level.

If balanced engines leads to a situation where the durability quirks are too strong so that those mechs become overpowered and dominate competitive play too much, those quirks should be reduced or removed.

Holding engine balancing hostage to the existence of durability quirks, which were introduced to offset the engine imbalance in the first place, is to willfully create a catch 22 situation and strikes me as very dishonest.

Obviously balancing the engines properly means you also reduce or remove the temporary band-aid you put in in the meanwhile, which is what the durability quirks are.

Any attempt to use quirks as an argument to not balance IS and CLan tech properly is ridiculous, what we should want is to create and environment where almost no quirks are needed because the tech balance is good, not the other way around.

Edited by Sjorpha, 19 May 2017 - 04:16 AM.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

What does this mean? The math clearly shows that IS mechs actually die FASTER than Clan mechs if they were even tonned, and this is did not even factor in the additional "ghost tonnage" durability quirks provide. So yeah, Clan tech is still superior, and Clan/IS XL still need to be balanced.

Ok, lets do soemthign relevant:

https://mwomercs.com...st-and-present/

We know after tuk1 clans got a lot nerfs and IS a lot buffs.

tuk 1
Total Mechs destroyed: 961,974
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 481,187
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 480,787

tuk 2
Total Mechs destroyed: 559033
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 276205
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 282828

tuk 3
Total Mechs destroyed: 1,117,721
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 534,019
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 583,702

So the IS to clan k/d ratio is:

tuk 1
0.999

tuk 2
1,02

tuk3
1.09

So over all 3 tukayyids the clans have doing better and better.
This is especially straneg for tuk1 -> tuk2 because that was when clans got a lot of nerfs and a lot of buffs handeled to the Is. How do you explain that? How did so many nerfs to the clans make them still perform better? What makes you think that nerfing the XL (or balancing as you said) will actually cause the effect you think it will?

Tuk 3 made clans perform even better than in tuk1 and tuk 2? whats the explanation now? how further do you want the can XL beeing nerfed until you think this is beeing reflected in the stats?
You would ahve to nerf it to a degree where all proper skilled palyers suddenly only choose IS mechs then the next result would be like 0.6 ratio as all people with proer skills choose the better tech and go IS for quick and easy wins. How cna constant nerfs and reblances lead to the currently worse result? did the balance attemps even truly balance anything? probably not. So stop crying for the further nerfs you always call for as they seem to NOT have any effect as you wanted them to.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 May 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Lily from animove, on 19 May 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

tuk 1
Total Mechs destroyed: 961,974
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 481,187
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 480,787

tuk 2
Total Mechs destroyed: 559033
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 276205
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 282828

tuk 3
Total Mechs destroyed: 1,117,721
Total Clan Mechs destroyed: 534,019
Total IS Mechs destroyed: 583,702

So the IS to clan k/d ratio is:

tuk 1
0.999

tuk 2
1,02

tuk3
1.09

So Clan 'mechs getting better at killing IS 'mechs somehow proves the Clan XL isn't better than every other engine choice? Yeah, alright then...
Relevant picture;

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 19 May 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

So over all 3 tukayyids the clans have doing better and better.This is especially straneg for tuk1 -> tuk2 because that was when clans got a lot of nerfs and a lot of buffs handeled to the Is. How do you explain that? How did so many nerfs to the clans make them still perform better? What makes you think that nerfing the XL (or balancing as you said) will actually cause the effect you think it will?

Where have you been, when PGI had given out MEGA QUIRKS to buttloads of IS mechs in 2014, and then took them away gradually? Don't remember the 50% LPL range and cooldown Wolvie? Don't remember the WTF BBQ Thunderbolts? Don't remember the blanket nerf of all the good Heavies IS had, such as Warhammer, Marauder, Black Knight, and Grasshopper?

Clans are doing better than before because IS keep getting their quirks nerfed for three years in a row! After this new skill tree if we do Tukayyid again, I guarantee you that IS will fare even worse than before, cause they got their quirks nerfed even more.

Balancing IS/Clan XL will either make IS have more survivability, or reduce Clan survivability; both should move the bar closer to 50:50. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that. As a bonus, a lot of IS durability quirks can be reduced and removed, making balancing simpler, and allowing IS mechs to not to rely on quirks too much. Cause quirk reliance has not benefited the IS mechs in the long run. After three years, anyone can see that!

Edited by El Bandito, 19 May 2017 - 04:44 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Jay Leon Hart, on 18 May 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

So you're telling me all IS 'mechs have the same structure and armour quirks? They don't.

Bad Clan players will always deny they have better tech.

Agreed. I have this module that I put on all my Clan mechs that allows me to torso twist and spread damage all over my mech instead of just taking it in one spot.

I've noticed that most of the IS potatoes can't do this, so I'm assuming that "twisting to spread damage" is unique to the Clans. Maybe PGI should add that feature to IS mechs as well, to increase their survivability.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Willard Phule, on 19 May 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

Agreed. I have this module that I put on all my Clan mechs that allows me to torso twist and spread damage all over my mech instead of just taking it in one spot.

I've noticed that most of the IS potatoes can't do this, so I'm assuming that "twisting to spread damage" is unique to the Clans. Maybe PGI should add that feature to IS mechs as well, to increase their survivability.

Oh, cool!
Do you have the "Twist Pinpoint Damage" module, too?

[El Bandito]

Willard Phule, on 19 May 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

Agreed. I have this module that I put on all my Clan mechs that allows me to torso twist and spread damage all over my mech instead of just taking it in one spot.

I've noticed that most of the IS potatoes can't do this, so I'm assuming that "twisting to spread damage" is unique to the Clans. Maybe PGI should add that feature to IS mechs as well, to increase their survivability.

You got a module that makes IS XL survive an ST loss, and costs mere 2 slots per ST while we are at it?

Or a module that reduces Endo/Ferro slots requirements by half, and give FF more weight savings while we are at it?

Edited by El Bandito, 19 May 2017 - 05:02 AM.

[Zergling]

When statistical facts fail, anecdotes about skill come out.

[Scyther]

@Lily from animove:

"Tuk 3 made clans perform even better than in tuk1 and tuk 2? whats the explanation now?"

That would be the Ebon Jaguar, HunchBack IIC, Huntsman, Jenner IIC, Night Gyr, Marauder IIC, and Kodiak releases since that time, I'd say. Not much released on the IS side that is comparable to these mechs.

Edit: Just a side note, because people seem to get confused about this: I don't want to see Clan and IS being 'equal' or 'made the same'. I would like to see IS and Clan have different strengths, weaknesses and play styles that make them different, but both relatively interesting to play. Having Clan mechs with a solid 10% advantage in performance (more actually, but the tonnage difference evens part of that up) has hurt FP mode since day 1 and continues to do so.

Edited by MadBadger, 19 May 2017 - 05:17 AM.