80 replies to this topic

[Trollfeed]

So argument here is that the clan xl is not in any way better than IS xl and all perceived differences are because players only playing clan mechs are better players than those endlessly whining inner sphere scrubs.

And for a proof how bad clan XL is you use stats on how IS gets stomped on Tukayyid event?

[Bud Crue]

Interesting thread.

Lily's implication that the Tuk data suggests there is a fair degree of balance.
But for a few mechs I would agree.
Here is the thing though: PGI says otherwise, and that is the end of the story.
Go read the Q&A wherein they explain and justify the skills tree changes. Not only is balance not good in PGI's view, but it is so bad that the skills tree is but a first step in trying to make it better, we need an energy weapons pass, new tech and then more quirks passes and a full rebalance before balance will be close...at least according to PGI.

[Reptilizer]

Bud Crue, on 19 May 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Interesting thread.

Lily's implication that the Tuk data suggests there is a fair degree of balance.
But for a few mechs I would agree.
Here is the thing though: PGI says otherwise, and that is the end of the story.
Go read the Q&A wherein they explain and justify the skills tree changes. Not only is balance not good in PGI's view, but it is so bad that the skills tree is but a first step in trying to make it better, we need an energy weapons pass, new tech and then more quirks passes and a full rebalance before balance will be close...at least according to PGI.

I never understood the need for balance on a "per mech" base really. There is simply no need for this. Especially in faction war you can just balance it off dropgroup-wise.
Not the way they did try with tonnage of course, because taking a heavier mech does not necessarily scale with survivabilty. In a long range poke meta one could even argue that it is in some cases highly counterproductive to be an IS assault...

Why did they never try the really obvious and go for 11 vs 12? Or 10 vs 12 for that matter?

[Bud Crue]

Reptilizer, on 19 May 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

I never understood the need for balance on a "per mech" base really. There is simply no need for this. Especially in faction war you can just balance it off dropgroup-wise.
Not the way they did try with tonnage of course, because taking a heavier mech does not necessarily scale with survivabilty. In a long range poke meta one could even argue that it is in some cases highly counterproductive to be an IS assault...

Why did they never try the really obvious and go for 11 vs 12? Or 10 vs 12 for that matter?

It's before my time, but my understanding is that they did try it, and for several reasons they pulled it (namely the fact that if one side was inherently and obviously more powerful then more of the population would go to that side thus screwing with queues etc). Spend some time with google and I am certain you will find your answers. They are out there.

[R Valentine]

Clan XL not better, only takes up less space and doesn't cause you to die from side torso loss. Is not so bad gaiz. L2P, or just play clan, which automatically make you better pilot. I mean duh. Play clan, you bettah because you get bettah score. There is no mech. Is not the mech that change, is only yourself.

- Lily

[Scyther]

@Reptilizer:
There are a couple of reasons for 'per mech' balancing. The primary being that original BattleTech design had a lot of mech variants that were considered 'poor designs', meaning if you had 3 50-ton mechs and one of those 3 pretty much always performed better, you would choose that one and ignore the other two.

Other than nostalgia reasons, there would be no reason to take a mech with worse hit-boxes, or low mounts, or weapons not well grouped together on the mech (eg. 3 missile slots in the RT group a lot better than 1 in the head and 1 in each arm). If PGI wants people to buy and play 'less-advantaged' mechs they need something like a 'per-mech' balance system.

Also, Clan tech by BattleTech design is inherently superior, so some IS/Clan mechanism needs to be in place, 'per-mech' or faction-wide.

IIRC PGI stated at the time that the game engine could not handle asymmetric numbers drops (12 vs 10) which would have been the 'correct' way to handle IS/Clan balance. Personally I think they could have faked it just by adding two 'ghost mech' / non-pilot DCs to a Clan drop. Not like the game doesn't handle DCs every day anyway.

However, Clan players were very much against this idea. (Personally I can't say this would have been a good solution, but it would have been interesting to try it before all those rounds of scattershot nerfs/buffs.)

Edited by MadBadger, 19 May 2017 - 05:54 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

Oh, cool!
Do you have the "Twist Pinpoint Damage" module, too?

Nope, but I've got this nifty jump jet module that lets me spread the pinpoint damage downward due to burn time. Does that count?

El Bandito, on 19 May 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

You got a module that makes IS XL survive an ST loss, and costs mere 2 slots per ST while we are at it?

Or a module that reduces Endo/Ferro slots requirements by half, and give FF more weight savings while we are at it?

Nooooo, because I don't ride IS crap.

[Reptilizer]

MadBadger, on 19 May 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

@Reptilizer:
There are a couple of reasons for 'per mech' balancing. The primary being that original BattleTech design had a lot of mech variants that were considered 'poor designs', meaning if you had 3 50-ton mechs and one of those 3 pretty much always performed better, you would choose that one and ignore the other two.

Other than nostalgia reasons, there would be no reason to take a mech with worse hit-boxes, or low mounts, or weapons not well grouped together on the mech (eg. 3 missile slots in the RT group a lot better than 1 in the head and 1 in each arm). If PGI wants people to buy and play 'less-advantaged' mechs they need something like a 'per-mech' balance system.

Also, Clan tech by BattleTech design is inherently superior, so some IS/Clan mechanism needs to be in place, 'per-mech' or faction-wide.

I disagree because the game as it is teaches us otherwise. Your scenario is and was always the actual state of the game.
The mechs of each faction are not balanced inside faction parameters either way. There are the walking trashcans with horrid design already and no one cares (Awesome is awesome...).
They never did even try to do it in-faction so the expectation that they are able to balance it out " per mech " between factions is ummmm... optimistic?

Due to different weight classes you have an unfair environment " per mech " or 1vs1 either way. And that is ok, as long as the matches are fair. Which is the case in QM PUGmode, because of random and is the case in group queue because of meta (where some mechs are never appearing).
But it is not fair in FW. So some kind of balance is needed, adding tonnage does not cut it because more weight scales bad and makes the design flaws/peculiarities of MWO even more prominent. The shift of power by adding weight is quite complex because of that.
And the solution that looks most promising and easy to me (11vs12/10vs12) was never even tried for BS reasons.

MadBadger, on 19 May 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

IIRC PGI stated at the time that the game engine could not handle asymmetric numbers drops (12 vs 10) which would have been the 'correct' way to handle IS/Clan balance. Personally I think they could have faked it just by adding two 'ghost mech' / non-pilot DCs to a Clan drop. Not like the game doesn't handle DCs every day anyway.

This exactly and i call BS on PGIs reasons here. In FW queues fill separately anyway...

[El Bandito]

Willard Phule, on 19 May 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Nooooo, because I don't ride IS crap.

End of thread guys. Dunno why people still delude themselves to think Clan tech is not superior.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Willard Phule, on 19 May 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Nope, but I've got this nifty jump jet module that lets me spread the pinpoint damage downward due to burn time. Does that count?

Your velocity based weapons have burn time? Wow, what is this other game you're playing?

[Willard Phule]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

End of thread guys. Dunno why people still delude themselves to think Clan tech is not superior.

Has nothing to do with any kind of "game mechanics." I'm one of the hated lore guys. Been playing BT since forever. I prefer the Clans over Inner Shpere, period, just based on that.

Quite frankly, PGI has gone out of their way to destroy pretty much anything lore related in this game....from the Star League origins (of which I sincerely doubt anyone at PGI knows anything about) to the actual invasion in the name of "balance." I'm sorry both sides aren't totally equal in every thing. That would kind of defeat the purpose.

Clan on Clan warfare prior to Tukayyid...right. It's almost as if we don't have an Ilkhan...wait, I guess we don't.

At this point, both sides have an inherent strength that plays to the other's weakness...the biggest difference is the Skill Tree and which side has the most people familiar enough with the game mechanics to maximize those strengths. Looks like the Clan is ahead in that department at the moment.

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 May 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

Your velocity based weapons have burn time? Wow, what is this other game you're playing?

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. We were speaking of defending oneself from the other team earlier. What I referred to was avoiding PPFLD, of which we kind of have to consider ERLLs now, and they have a burn time. Instead of letting some bozo with 5 ERLLs simply bore through my Side Torso, I can hit my jump jets and let the damage trail down into my leg....as opposed to twisting and losing target acquisition, since my burn time is longer. Does that explain better?

Edited by Willard Phule, 20 May 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Willard Phule, on 20 May 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. We were speaking of defending oneself from the other team earlier. What I referred to was avoiding PPFLD, of which we kind of have to consider ERLLs now, and they have a burn time. Instead of letting some bozo with 5 ERLLs simply bore through my Side Torso, I can hit my jump jets and let the damage trail down into my leg....as opposed to twisting and losing target acquisition, since my burn time is longer. Does that explain better?

Actually, yes - thanks!

[Zergling]

Willard Phule, on 20 May 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Clan on Clan warfare prior to Tukayyid...right. It's almost as if we don't have an Ilkhan...wait, I guess we don't.

Wat

Do you really think the Clans didn't fight against each other prior to Tukayyid?

[Willard Phule]

Zergling, on 20 May 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Wat

Do you really think the Clans didn't fight against each other prior to Tukayyid?

According to Lore, nowhere near as much as we experience here...or experienced in the prior seasons. The corridors were designated and any conflicts were generally trials of possession for a particular planet if it were disputed. There weren't any trials to take control from another Clan until after Tukayyid. At least not according to the novels.

[Zergling]

Willard Phule, on 20 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

According to Lore, nowhere near as much as we experience here...or experienced in the prior seasons. The corridors were designated and any conflicts were generally trials of possession for a particular planet if it were disputed. There weren't any trials to take control from another Clan until after Tukayyid. At least not according to the novels.

The original four Invading Clans (Jade Falcon, Wolf, Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar) didn't have much conflicts during the actual Invasion, but when Steel Vipers and Nova Cats joined the invasion in late 3051 (after the death of ilKhan Leo Showers and election of ilKhan Ulric Kerensky) there was some inter-Clan fighting going on.

Eg, the Steel Vipers fought Trials of Possession for Montmarault and Orkney against the Jade Falcons, and both battles involved Cluster sized forces.
The Nova Cats fought a Trial of Possession for Courchevel against the Smoke Jaguars, which was only a Trinary sized engagement, and the Diamond Sharks fought the Ghost Bears for Nyserta in a Cluster sized Trial of Possession.

The only reason there weren't more Trials fought is the limited timeframe between the resumption of the Invasion and the Battle of Tukayyid; if there had been more time, there would have been a lot more inter-Clan fighting going on.
Hell, the Steel Vipers took Goat Path and Blackjack from the Jade Falcons in June 3052 (just 1 month after the Battle of Tukayyid), Parakoila in July and Blair Atholl in November.


Going further into the topic, even before the Clan Invasion (which was actually an unusual period of Clan unity) there was significant fighting going on; the biggest warfare was probably the Wolverine Annihilation and the Wolf-Widowmaker Absorption War that preceded the Golden Century, but even during the Golden Century there was no end to the inter-Clan fighting.

Most Clans simply didn't get along with others; they all had their enemies and grudges, and they took out their dislike and hatred for each other in Trials.
Those Clans that preferred to not fight all the time were perceived as weak, and they either lost most of their holdings (as with Clan Blood Spirit, after they tried to be diplomats working for Clan unity) or were Absorbed by a stronger Clan (as with Clan Mongoose).

[Willard Phule]

Zergling, on 20 May 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

The original four Invading Clans (Jade Falcon, Wolf, Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar) didn't have much conflicts during the actual Invasion, but when Steel Vipers and Nova Cats joined the invasion in late 3051 (after the death of ilKhan Leo Showers and election of ilKhan Ulric Kerensky) there was some inter-Clan fighting going on.

Eg, the Steel Vipers fought Trials of Possession for Montmarault and Orkney against the Jade Falcons, and both battles involved Cluster sized forces.
The Nova Cats fought a Trial of Possession for Courchevel against the Smoke Jaguars, which was only a Trinary sized engagement, and the Diamond Sharks fought the Ghost Bears for Nyserta in a Cluster sized Trial of Possession.

The only reason there weren't more Trials fought is the limited timeframe between the resumption of the Invasion and the Battle of Tukayyid; if there had been more time, there would have been a lot more inter-Clan fighting going on.
Hell, the Steel Vipers took Goat Path and Blackjack from the Jade Falcons in June 3052 (just 1 month after the Battle of Tukayyid), Parakoila in July and Blair Atholl in November.


Going further into the topic, even before the Clan Invasion (which was actually an unusual period of Clan unity) there was significant fighting going on; the biggest warfare was probably the Wolverine Annihilation and the Wolf-Widowmaker Absorption War that preceded the Golden Century, but even during the Golden Century there was no end to the inter-Clan fighting.

Most Clans simply didn't get along with others; they all had their enemies and grudges, and they took out their dislike and hatred for each other in Trials.
Those Clans that preferred to not fight all the time were perceived as weak, and they either lost most of their holdings (as with Clan Blood Spirit, after they tried to be diplomats working for Clan unity) or were Absorbed by a stronger Clan (as with Clan Mongoose).

Right, but a Trial is a far cry from a planetary conquest. Also, prior to Tukayyid, they weren't exactly common. Even after the corridor was opened up for the Clans that didn't participate in the initial invasion, trials were somewhat limited in that the Clans that were newly arrived to the Inner Sphere needed planets to operate from.

I'm not saying that there isn't Clan on Clan warfare, I'm saying that it's completely different than Clan on Inner Sphere.

[Zergling]

Willard Phule, on 21 May 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

Right, but a Trial is a far cry from a planetary conquest. Also, prior to Tukayyid, they weren't exactly common. Even after the corridor was opened up for the Clans that didn't participate in the initial invasion, trials were somewhat limited in that the Clans that were newly arrived to the Inner Sphere needed planets to operate from.

I'm not saying that there isn't Clan on Clan warfare, I'm saying that it's completely different than Clan on Inner Sphere.

A Trial for Possession for a planet is a planetary conquest. The Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars both ceded worlds without fights to the Steel Vipers and Nova Cats to give them bases of operation, on instructions from ilKhan Ulric Kerensky, but there was also Trials of Possession for planets after that, simply because those Clans were itching to fight each other.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, the Clan Invasion was actually a highly unusual era of Clan unity and cooperation. The Clans were normally constantly bickering and fighting over the slightest things.

[Willard Phule]

Zergling, on 21 May 2017 - 04:23 AM, said:

A Trial for Possession for a planet is a planetary conquest. The Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars both ceded worlds without fights to the Steel Vipers and Nova Cats to give them bases of operation, on instructions from ilKhan Ulric Kerensky, but there was also Trials of Possession for planets after that, simply because those Clans were itching to fight each other.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, the Clan Invasion was actually a highly unusual era of Clan unity and cooperation. The Clans were normally constantly bickering and fighting over the slightest things.

Right up until the Crusader faction pressed the issue and forced a vote for invasion, the electing of Leo Showers as Ilkhan and so forth.

I'm not saying that fighting didn't occur between them, what I'm saying is that during the invasion, that's what the focus was on. Anything that detracted from the race to Terra could be dealt with summarily. Hell all the Clans participated in vicious trials just to be allowed to be in the first 4.

[Gyrok]

Bud Crue, on 19 May 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Interesting thread.

Lily's implication that the Tuk data suggests there is a fair degree of balance.
But for a few mechs I would agree.
Here is the thing though: PGI says otherwise, and that is the end of the story.
Go read the Q&A wherein they explain and justify the skills tree changes. Not only is balance not good in PGI's view, but it is so bad that the skills tree is but a first step in trying to make it better, we need an energy weapons pass, new tech and then more quirks passes and a full rebalance before balance will be close...at least according to PGI.

The same people who could not balance two equal weight children on a see-saw are your de facto source for the best information?

I mean, I can understand your point, but their credibility is shot at this point.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Even if one allows that IS STD Engines are superior defensively to cXLs (which is at minimum debatable due to higher engine ratings for a given tonnage), it entirely ignores the question of offense. If an IS STD mech takes 5% more damage to kill than a cXL mech, but loses 50% payload space (with heavier weapons too), then that tradeoff is entirely against the IS. Survivability would have to be closer to 100% higher to make things truly even by these metrics. 5% is close to statistically insignificant.