79 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Assassin and Viper, your new Light Mechs.

Javelin missing.

[DAYLEET]

Good ol FS9 getting the shaft again.

[Deathlike]

Wildstreak, on 18 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Assassin and Viper, your new Light Mechs.

Javelin missing.

Unless you can find me the base Accel #s, I can't add them yet.

[Elizander]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

Not sure why the KDK-2,4,5 are more special than the King Crabs because they are definitely not as deserving of agility as the King Crabs.

It's probably a case of PGI comparing all the Kodiaks to the 3 and doing it in a bubble while disregarding all the other 100 tonners.

[Mcgral18]

Done



Among those looked at, Atlas lost the most (having a large twist speed quirk) while the Cheetah gained the most (...can't explain that)

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Why did the Ravens, Firestarters, and Panthers get hammered so hard......seriously, they got hit worse than the Cheetah...

Why did the BLRs get more than TBRs, Black Knights and All Orions (IS & Clan)?

Because PGI is now in charge of micromanaging all the things, and they are not even remotely in touch with the actual game or how it's played.

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Among those looked at, Atlas lost the most (having a large twist speed quirk) while the Cheetah gained the most (...can't explain that)

Easy to explain.

You don't put people in charge of balance, who don't actually understand the mechs or the meta.

[Wintersdark]

Good data guys, thanks Deathlike & McGral for the research. Nice to see how things stack up comparatively now.

[Sagamore]

I suspected that the Spirit Bear got hit hard, but didn't realize it now has the worst agility in the game.

I just played a Cyclops and it felt very nice. Now to try my Zeus collection which has been neglected for far too long.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

while the Cheetah gained the most (...can't explain that)

I think this comes down to the new equations for agility and speed (less agility at higher speeds than before and the curve is steeper).

[Tarogato]

Does anybody have these raw accel and decel and quirks in spreadsheet/csv? I've tried copying from PGI's pdf, but it doesn't come out as csv, so I can't use it.

[Gwahlur]

Griffins really took a hard hit on agility. Paired with the fact you need to spec back into ecm and jj's, it comes out worst of my mechs now after the skill tree.

[Bud Crue]

Deathlike, on 18 May 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

24.63 - Black Knight (6B)
...
17.72 - Black Knight (all except 6B)

I don't have their comparative stats or remaining quirks in front of me, but based on the above, if you are going to play Black Knights why would you play anything other then the 6B ?

Consider also:
All Grasshoppers are 29.26. Did they do something to the 5J and the N to give players a reason to choose either of those variants over the H and/or the P?

[El Bandito]

Holy **** that Summoner!

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 19 May 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

I don't have their comparative stats or remaining quirks in front of me, but based on the above, if you are going to play Black Knights why would you play anything other then the 6B ?

Well, you could just be a masochist?

7L has the best engine cap option, but nope.

Quote

Consider also:
All Grasshoppers are 29.26. Did they do something to the 5J and the N to give players a reason to choose either of those variants over the H and/or the P?

lol no?

I mean, the only defining feature is better heat gen, so that means you are free to use more LPL + ML or MPL in your combinations which would be better for it.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

Not sure why the KDK-2,4,5 are more special than the King Crabs because they are definitely not as deserving of agility as the King Crabs.

Well, we have an over-saturation of available mechs, and the potential spectrum of difference that could be applied is simply not broad enough to allow so many mechs to be individually customized to where all of it will be balanced well.

Going forward PGI will always struggle to properly identify which mechs are deserving of how much and why. The best we can ever hope for is that they simply stop balancing based on whatever nonsensical roles they think these mechs occupy and instead simply come up with a good value that gets applied totally evenly across all mechs of a single tonnage or a small tonnage range

KDK-3 is in the basement of agility, so I guess they felt had to separate the “less good” KDKs vs. the KDK-3 somehow to demonstrate the clear nerf hammering they were giving it - so they got slightly better agility for no actually good reason.

To clarify a bit, I don’t think not having ideal hardpoints is a logical reason it is an idiosyncratic reason when they all have access to identical engine caps - why are we balancing hardpoints through agility?

Wasn't the point of the desynch to address ENGINE CAP imbalances?

So what we have here is some massive overreach and utilizing the new values in a very messy, non-scientific and non-systematic way - and it will unlikely ever be balanced well across all mechs.

I don't see how the game has been improved in this particular area, it just seems like more micromanaging of lots of small numbers for PGI in a game where the meta keeps shifting and they can't keep up with it.

This is exactly why I was, and still am, completely against the engine desynch.


We went from a clean, simple, system - to one that is not a system and is just now a new form of quirks they will fail at balancing.

(Sorry for the weird formatting)

Edited by Ultimax, 19 May 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimax, on 18 May 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

Why did the BLRs get more than TBRs, Black Knights and All Orions (IS & Clan)?

Wow didn't make that comparison yet... *facepalm*

Error: The agile Black Knight is the 6, not the 6B.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 19 May 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Wasn't the point of the desynch to address ENGINE CAP imbalances?

So what we have here is some massive overreach and utilizing the new values in a very messy, non-scientific and non-systematic way - and it will unlikely ever be balanced well across all mechs.

While true, we wouldn't have any more of a balanced game with the coupling because BESM would've still ruled the day. Sure this is a mess but at least there is some variety and tonnage isn't the end all be all (KDK-3 is probably dethroned by the MAD-IIC and BLR finally for example). IDK, it may be more messy, but I still prefer engine decoupling, PGI just needs to suck less at baselines.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

While true, we wouldn't have any more of a balanced game with the coupling because BESM would've still ruled the day. Sure this is a mess but at least there is some variety and tonnage isn't the end all be all (KDK-3 is probably dethy roned by the MAD-IIC and BLR finally for example). IDK, it may be more messy, but I still prefer engine decoupling, PGI just needs to suck less at baselines.

I'm sure they will fix the BLR vs BK/ON1/TBR comparison by giving the BLR 6.19 accel agility.

Also, would there be a place for the Turkina now if it had Banshee/Highlander level agility?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 May 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

Wow didn't make that comparison yet... *facepalm*

PGI seems to have missed the entire phase where BLRs have supplanted every other IS assault mech for first choice with laser builds.

I mean this engine desynch was supposedly added because some mechs have low engine caps....



20.02: BLRs (Engine cap 400)
15.41: All Awesomes, STK-3FB (Engine Caps mostly 300/310)
13.11: All other STKs (Engine Caps 310)
10.79: Mauler (Engine Cap 325)



So tell me how this makes sense then? Tell me how this is better than just letting the mech with the bigger engine cap ACTUALLY PAY with tonnage for their added agility/mobility instead of just playing favorites or using the dartboard of balance?

And let's be clear here, we are talking about what is one of the top tier IS assaults that already outclassed Stalkers, Awesomes and even most Maulers before the skill tree or desynch went live. (Not that I'm unhappy about BLRs, I'm happy to have one Assault that isn't a fun-killing experience to pilot like nearly everything else after this desynch mess).

Edited by Ultimax, 19 May 2017 - 10:08 AM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 May 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

While true, we wouldn't have any more of a balanced game with the coupling because BESM would've still ruled the day.

You're thinking is way too binary on this.

There is very clearly a space between The old system based on a logical system of tonnage vs. engine rating and the new system of PGI's dartboard of balance.


All they had to do was tweak the formula so that final values for agility wasn't such a huge advantage once you took X TON mech and gave it Y RATING engine.


There's clearly a middle ground. Well, was.