22 replies to this topic

[Douglas grizzly]

Why is it when a couple big name or super organized units switch sides all the others do the same and it seems the side they left has nothing but potatoes left with a very few exception? Could it be the big units are afraid to face each other in battle?

[oldradagast]

There is some of that, yes.

Back when FP was new and it was revealed that it had no matchmaker and thus would consist of endless farming of "stupid noobs, casuals, and PUG's" by large, coordinated units, some of us spoke out against that. We warned PGI that creating a game mode that guaranteed farming and auto-losses when the match pairing was made was idiotic; we also warned them that people would figure this out quickly and abandon Community Warfare.

Of course, as is all too common, various loud troublemakers responded by taking the side opposed to common sense and basic human behavior and made all sorts of nutty claims, such as how losing repeatedly was good for you, or how it was "realistic," or how everyone should just "git gud," join a unit, quit their day job, and somehow develop the reflexes of somebody 10 to 20 years younger so they can be masters of a pointless game mode in a niche video game.

Naturally, we pushed back, pointing out that if CW was such a "high skill" environment meant only for the great and worthy, they should be eager to not have to play against vastly inferior opponents and only face foes worthy of their time. As you'd expect, countless excuses were made to continue the endless farming and seal-clubbing, proving quite clearly that it was never about "high skill" and meeting worthy foes, but about having "stupid" people to easily kill and laugh about on the forums.

In the long run, as we predicted, most players wised up to the completely unbalanced and fun-free idiocy of CW, got sick of the stomps, and left. It was completely preventable and easily predicted with common sense and some understanding of human nature and why people play games. Why PGI missed this, I'll never know.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 May 2017 - 06:17 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Douglas grizzly, on 18 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why is it when a couple big name or super organized units switch sides all the others do the same and it seems the side they left has nothing but potatoes left with a very few exception? Could it be the big units are afraid to face each other in battle?

More fun making mashed potatoes?

[Xetelian]

Not sure, maybe people just don't want to have to face off against them so they follow them.

[Scyther]

You win more matches against worse opponents than you do against better ones.

[MechaBattler]

oldradagast, on 18 May 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

There is some of that, yes.

Back when FP was new and it was revealed that it had no matchmaker and thus would consist of endless farming of "stupid noobs, casuals, and PUG's" by large, coordinated units, some of us spoke out against that. We warned PGI that creating a game mode that guaranteed farming and auto-losses when the match pairing was made was idiotic; we also warned them that people would figure this out quickly and abandon Community Warfare.

Of course, as is all too common, various loud troublemakers responded by taking the side opposed to common sense and basic human behavior and made all sorts of nutty claims, such as how losing repeatedly was good for you, or how it was "realistic," or how everyone should just "git gud," join a unit, quit their day job, and somehow develop the reflexes of somebody 10 to 20 years younger so they can be masters of a pointless game mode in a niche video game.

Naturally, we pushed back, pointing out that if CW was such a "high skill" environment meant only for the great and worthy, they should be eager to not have to play against vastly inferior opponents and only face foes worthy of time. As you'd expect, countless excuses were made to continue the endless farming and seal-clubbing, proving quite clearly that it was never about "high skill" and meeting worthy foes, but about having "stupid" people to easily kill and laugh about on the forums.

In the long run, as we predicted, most players wised up to the completely unbalanced and fun-free idiocy of CW, got sick of the stomps, and left. It was completely preventable and easily predicted with common sense and some understanding of human nature and why people play games. Why PGI missed this, I'll never know.

Yeah I remember that. Everyone was so full of themselves about it. And PGI trying to sell it as "Hardcore" mode only fed into it more. Who did they think was really going to keep it active?

[oldradagast]

MechaBattler, on 18 May 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Yeah I remember that. Everyone was so full of themselves about it. And PGI trying to sell it as "Hardcore" mode only fed into it more. Who did they think was really going to keep it active?

I got into my worst forum fights during that period, and most of my ignore list is composed of troublemakers and seal-clubbers who just relished the chance to have a whole game mode devoted to feeding them helpless targets to be quickly killed and mocked. It's a prime example of how the internet makes people into jerks and idiots. Imagine a real-world sport with no match-making whatsoever. Imagine if American football were that stupid, and you could have high school teams paired up against pro NFL teams. Would anybody consider that "high skill?" Would anyone want to watch such boring stomps? And why would anybody want to get into the game when you'll get rolled most of of the time unless you happen to be one of the lucky few with the skills and time to be great at it?

There's a reason any real-world sport that is taken remotely seriously has a match-maker of some sort, and nobody in their right mind would ask for the removal of such things in real world games and sports. But for some reason, such horrible design decisions are commonly requested and acted upon in the world of the internet.

[Elizander]

Reward top 3 units per faction with something significant or just the top unit per faction and make them spread out to farm those rewards instead.

[sycocys]

There's a solution to that - get rid of IS v Clan.
Let everyone drop in mixed decks.
Lower the match rewards, then add contract bonuses for meeting various faction requirements (mechs/strategies/tech and so forth).

Pug play is the QP queue, 1 mech = 1 match.
Mixed team/pug queues, 1 deck.
Team only queues (4/8/12 only) 1 scout (lance v lance) + 1 deck match.

Less buckets, less restrictions, MM can stay in place for 1.5 of the modes, and a little balance is made by utilizing the rewards system. PGI would find a way to screw it up of course, but that is neither here nor there.

Tally "faction" wins by putting a check in for each player 1/12 = 1 win point. All match types can be made faster since you eliminate having an entirely separate set of match queues, no modes or MysterMatchMaker is lost in the process.

Oh yeah, and when you get rid of IS v Clan queues and combine them all - no one gets to avoid anyone else since everyone is in the same system.

Edited by sycocys, 18 May 2017 - 06:41 PM.

[Coolant]

i don't let any unit dictate which faction I choose

[Douglas grizzly]

Rampage, on 18 May 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

More fun making mashed potatoes?

to me far more interest going against a challenge and getting kills. yesterday even when going against teams i knew was going to stomp me i managed in several to get 4 kills even when my team was severely overmatched

[Shifty McSwift]

When you put it like that it seems obvious it is the sheep that don't want to be eaten by the wolves, so they dress like them and hang out in the same channels. Sheep in wolves clothing as it were.

[HeresWhy]

oldradagast, on 18 May 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

Why PGI missed this, I'll never know.

Oh that's easy. They're dumb. Quite dumb. They ignore all the universal truths of gaming and expect a different result from the one received by every other game that has gone down the paths they take.

Edited by HeresWhy, 19 May 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Douglas grizzly, on 18 May 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Why is it when a couple big name or super organized units switch sides all the others do the same and it seems the side they left has nothing but potatoes left with a very few exception? Could it be the big units are afraid to face each other in battle?

thats because PGI has no dynamic reward adjustment system. instead at a day of PGI's please they alter specific factions rewards. At that day the units look where the bounty is the biggest and swap over there.

IF the reward system had a background system being in effect while being online without PGI needing to lay a hand on, this would differ, because when the first big unit would switch, an immediate change in the rewards would trigger and the next big unit would go somewhere else as this would be the next one on the list being the most proficient.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 May 2017 - 04:32 AM.

[sycocys]

If they got rid of Clan vs IS and the additional sets of players pools that creates, then people could be whatever silly faction they wanted to be - the rewards for faction contracts can be stable, different requirements between the factions and used as a layer of game balancing by focusing on your contract terms being the primary reward structure, with match rewards only being supplemental.

[Timuroslav]

People want to be loners in a team game.

AS any First Person Shooter and MOBA will show.
People will find ways to take out the Community in Community warfare because they want to make a social game an anti-social affair.

Also, Mercs want to be hired, but since they can hire themselves out to a faction... All they have to do is follow the wave of easy money. Then it makes them look good which in turn gets them more recruits. It's a vicious cycle.

PGI really stuck it to all the Loyalists imo. Especially, when Everyone can basically get the same rewards the loyalists do without the penalties.

Edited by Timuroslav, 19 May 2017 - 05:54 AM.

[vandalhooch]

oldradagast, on 18 May 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

I got into my worst forum fights during that period, and most of my ignore list is composed of troublemakers and seal-clubbers who just relished the chance to have a whole game mode devoted to feeding them helpless targets to be quickly killed and mocked.

Nothing like a classic straw man to bring back the memories of those good times.

Quote

It's a prime example of how the internet makes people into jerks and idiots. Imagine a real-world sport with no match-making whatsoever. Imagine if American football were that stupid, and you could have high school teams paired up against pro NFL teams.

Do you know who those NFL players played against when they were in High School?

I don't think you know the first thing about how American football is actually broken up. It isn't skill level that determines what level you play at. Divisions in high school and collegiate sports are determined by the size of the potential player pool available to the team to draw from. Teams that can draw from larger pools of recruits play against teams that can draw from a similar sized pool. All NFL teams draw from the exact same pool which is why there are no division levels in the league. You'll also note that there is absolutely no outside matchmaker deciding which teams are equal in skill. In fact, the only matchmaker system in the league is used to determine the initial playoff schedules and those matches are purposefully designed to be mismatches according to the data.

Does the NCAA use a matchmaker to create even skill matches when setting up the March Madness brackets?

Quote

Would anybody consider that "high skill?" Would anyone want to watch such boring stomps? And why would anybody want to get into the game when you'll get rolled most of of the time unless you happen to be one of the lucky few with the skills and time to be great at it?

If you don't have the skills, then don't play it. No one is forced to play Faction Play.

Quote

There's a reason any real-world sport that is taken remotely seriously has a match-maker of some sort, and nobody in their right mind would ask for the removal of such things in real world games and sports.

Please explain what matchmaker the NFL uses to set up its schedule. Be sure to highlight the portion where the matchmaker attempts to create matchups of even skill level teams.

Quote

But for some reason, such horrible design decisions are commonly requested and acted upon in the world of the internet.

This analogy just gets dumber and dumber every time I hear it.

[Insanity09]

Every PvP mmo out there has a segment of the population that just loves to utterly annihilate much weaker opponents. These are the people who camp spawns, graves, and newbie zones, waiting for vulnerable and effectively defenseless people to kill so they can feel good about themselves (never mind the inherent contradiction there).

In truth, it is a simple fact of life. There are always bullies who pick on weak opponents and want the apparent (but false) power thrill. To those folks, I recommend going outside and finding an anthill to stomp on, rather than victimizing your fellow humans.

Many games attempt to discourage this behavior in numerous ways ranging from simply making it impossible to allowing it, but punishing those who choose completely unfair fights. Every single time there are always the people who refuse to stop baby-seal clubbing. Most of those that allow less inhibited clubbing either die on the vine or become very low population niche games.
In both cases, new players, the necessary lifeblood of all games, are seriously discouraged. New players have a very difficult time advancing because they get killed too fast and often to make progress.

MWO has made some very wrong choices in this area, but also one decent one.
The wrong choices have to do with matchmaking (CW mostly) and imbalanced factions (the seemingly less cbill accessible side, clan, costs more to get into, so newer players go for the IS, which does have the tech disadvantage at present, squish). The right choice was in the QP queue. Love the queue or hate it, for several reasons it is friendlier to new players, and thus gives those rookies a chance to become more familiar with and invested in the game.

There is a lesson to be learned there, but alas, the obvious point has been there for some time without redress, so either it cannot be fixed (the population damage is already too severe?) or for undisclosed reasons it simply won't be. Maybe both.

[Nightmare1]

@OP:

Man, I don't know, but, while we're on the subject of mysteries, could you by any chance tell me how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?

[oldradagast]

vandalhooch, on 19 May 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

*blah, blah, blah* Long-winded, rambling post that misses the point, misrepresents my post, and ignores the fact that he already lost the argument years ago.

As soon as I saw your name, I remembered you from those days. I wondered what drivel you'd post to defend the empty FP queues and a format designed for seal-clubbing.

I particularly enjoyed the part where you pretended I was arguing against pro teams on the NFL playing against each other; sure, that's not what I posted, but who cares about that. Nobody has a problem with such matchups, since that's like 2 pro MWO teams playing each other. The problem is when the PUG's and casuals - the high school team in my example - get tossed up against pro teams. That's the problem - duh!

Ah, well - nothing has changed. You're still picking a fight and misrepresenting my posts even though you've lost this argument years ago - the empty FP queues prove that I was right. Anyway, you're back on my ignore list. Have a nice life, since I won't be reading anymore of your fight-picking drivel.

Edited by oldradagast, 19 May 2017 - 02:22 PM.