117 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Skill tree is fine.

Engine Desync is not.

If you think you're so good, it say "we're hiring" at the bottom of the page.

[Acehilator]

The skill tree is decent... not sure if it was worth all the development time, though. Compensation was pretty generous. And even if I am not the biggest fan of the skill tree, quit your whining about the need to reskill.

Aux: 6 (or 1)
Sensors: 9 (+2 for long range, 13 for ECM mechs)
Operations: 9 (or 20)
Mobility: 15
Firepower: the rest, or take what you want and put the rest into Mobility

With that setup you can skill 95% of mechs in two minutes per mech (slow 90t+ mechs need more mobility, LRM boats more Sensors, some Dakka mechs less Operations). It is not that hard. It took six mechs and two days to figure out. Having trouble deciding the ultra-mega-optimal use of three out of 91 nodes doesn't count as a "problem", indiviual node worth is so low that it just does not matter when looking at the big picture.

Edited by Acehilator, 19 May 2017 - 05:47 AM.

[sycocys]

Snowbluff, on 19 May 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Skill tree is fine.

Engine Desync is not.

If you think you're so good, it say "we're hiring" at the bottom of the page.

They aren't actually hiring - that's been there since the game went live.

[Rackminster]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 May 2017 - 12:08 AM, said:

I have put my money where my mouth is, I have about ninety 'Mechs (after selling a few- I had 113), and I like the Tree. I don't like everything about it, and I've been pretty clear about what I don't like, but I like most of it.

I would rather not have skill trees or leveling up or any RPG elements at all in my big stompy robot game, but I'd much rather have this unnecessary skillgrind in the game than the same-for-every-single-'Mech, boring-arse, loaded with useless and nonfuntional crap old tree. At least now I don't have to waste XP on Pinpoint, and if a 'Mech is already fast enough I don't need to get the entire elite tier in order to max out my cooling skills, and I don't have to invest almost double the amount I put into mobility and heat skills just to optimize my module setup with a second support skill.

It's better. It's not optimal, but it's better...

I put my money where my mouth is with this game over and over, and I'll continue to support it. I'm very much an on and off player, but I'm also a paying member and original founder.

I completely agree with the quoted post.

Having to grind through the exact same "Skill Tree" for every single chassis - 3 times over - was tedious. I used to stop playing some Mechs because I had too much experience on them and wanted to work on others. Now I have a reason to keep accumulating it - so I can unlock every slot and tinker with builds.

I also agree with a previous poster - this isn't a skill tree. This is a mechanic's shop with tweaks and parts to improve performance on a Mech. It's a Customization Tree.

This change isn't the end of the world. It's the end of guaranteeing that everything is identical at the top layer.

*Edit: I notice I'm a "Tier 4" combatant. That's new to me. The last time I played, I was locked in a cycle of being artificially stuck in one place by being grouped well one fight, and then being the only competent person on my team in the next fight - so I was constantly "WINBIG!! LOSEHARD!!" over and over. I'm interested to see how they've changed this (if at all).

Edited by Rackminster, 19 May 2017 - 06:38 AM.

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 19 May 2017 - 05:17 AM, said:

You mean the change to do the same thing with a more ugly interface is necessary? Because the only actual thing that changed was engine decoupling and removing the 3 mech system. Beyond those 2 things it's the same terrible system that destroys any ability to balance the game, and actually make balance more impossible because the variables in place that they need to draw data from will be all over the map instead of a base set of values with builds being the different factors.

Well, at least there are not many excuses left against 10 vs. 12 and other Clan Formation vs. IS Formation drops.

[Dogstar]

Zigmund Freud, on 19 May 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

So basically only whales should have a voice, because other players are not players. Ok.

Actually, in game design terms this is eminently reasonable.

From one point of view free players are basically content for whales. Free players (i.e. ones who play for free and never pay for anything with real money) are there to fill up the game but it's the whales who actually pay the company wages and keep the servers rolling and it's only whales who can withhold their money to influence the company. No amount of free players whining on the forums should persuade a game company to make a change.

If you play for free you are just cheap AI NPCs for the 'real' players

and if you think that's outrageous then you really need to realise that game companies are, when you get down to it, in it for the money first.

Edited by Dogstar, 19 May 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Snowbluff, on 19 May 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Skill tree is fine.

Engine Desync is not.

If you think you're so good, it say "we're hiring" at the bottom of the page.

pfff, I doubt PGI pays enough compared to my current job to ontop of that make me motivate me moving to canada. (is this even soemwhat correct? https://www.glassdoo...ies-E144886.htm) then surely, nope.) Also they don't even hire a proper game designer, just someoen that loosk like he has to code more than design game mechanics at all.

Mystere, on 19 May 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

Well, at least there are not many excuses left against 10 vs. 12 and other Clan Formation vs. IS Formation drops.

QP is still an excuse because ther eit is 12vs12 and mixtech so we cannot assynchronous balance FP while QP stays a synchronus based mixtech battle.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 May 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[PurplePuke]

TLBFestus, on 18 May 2017 - 10:37 PM, said:

Seriously. Stop it.

Every time you quasi-orgasm about how well done the new skill tree is the hair on the back of my neck stands up.

Language like this is why nobody takes your whining seriously, and why I sure as hell hope PGI doesn't take you seriously.

Happy with the tree and looking forward to more development.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 19 May 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

QP is still an excuse because ther eit is 12vs12 and mixtech so we cannot assynchronous balance FP while QP stays a synchronus based mixtech battle.

Making QP forced IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, or IS vs. Clan based on player availability takes care of that problem.

[CDLord HHGD]

LOVE THE NEW SKILL SYSTEM!

L2SKILL!

[Dino Might]

Ted Wayz, on 18 May 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

Seriously, day three and the bodies are mounting.

And unless you apologist are ready to fully fund this game, you should stop attacking those who have valid criticisms of the new skill system and start listening. And then start working to help PGI to fix this garbage.

Personally unless I hear what PGI's promise is to create a system to allow people with many mechs to rapidly regain their mechs past status, I will cancel my pre-orders and shut the wallet.

And if you are not supporting this game...if you choose to comment with your one mech earned from academy c-bills and haven't spent a cent on this game...just stop. If PGI was smart you wouldn't even be able to post because frankly you do not matter to their bottom line.

Interesting perspective, but I beg to differ. This game lives on its free to play players filling out queues. If only paying customers paid, they'd have closed up shop already, because it would take 10 minutes to find a match, and you'd be even more frustrated just playing with the same people all the time, especially if you aren't one of the best players. Getting crushed every single game over and over with no variation would drive many more away, and ultimately, this whole thing goes extinct, like a species that does not have a minimum breeding population.

Now, all the "apologists" may not be saying things you like (for instance, that they enjoy the new skill tree), and they may be trying to shut you up, but what they are not doing is trying to stifle any recommendations for improvement. All the reaction I have seen is to posts like yours that are akin to a toddler having a tantrum. "Fix this or I quit!"

You have not provided any solution to the problem. You are only able to scream that there is a problem, and not everyone agrees with you on that. If you want more constructive discussion, identify the problem and propose a solution. Even if I didn't agree that it was a major issue, if your solution is plausible and something I think is worthwhile, I'm definitely going to be in your camp trying to convince others and get it noticed by PGI.

But, stamping your feet and saying this needs to be fixed really gets us nowhere. You can take what I have written as an attempt to silence you, but it's more a recommendation to redirect your dissatisfaction towards something productive and beneficial for this game and community at large.

Dogstar, on 19 May 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Actually, in game design terms this is eminently reasonable.

From one point of view free players are basically content for whales. Free players (i.e. ones who play for free and never pay for anything with real money) are there to fill up the game but it's the whales who actually pay the company wages and keep the servers rolling and it's only whales who can withhold their money to influence the company. No amount of free players whining on the forums should persuade a game company to make a change.

If you play for free you are just cheap AI NPCs for the 'real' players

and if you think that's outrageous then you really need to realise that game companies are, when you get down to it, in it for the money first.

Without enough plankton, the whales will die. Players are necessary for the game to exist. Free players make up the majority of the player base. You need free players.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Now if you criticize PGI for lackluster production, you are part of the toxic crowd...and on an island.

Awesome.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 19 May 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I get that change is scary. There's room to improve in the skill tree.

However, I've hopped around a few TS and talked to different teams that are all good players and are all taking different tacts in the skill tree. It's actually pretty awesome; some teams go mobility and firepower and sensor and ignore ops and survival. Some go firepower and survival and ops. Some stack up 2 Coolshot, some don't.

It's a lot of customization and it's a way better experience than I had originally hoped.

However the skill tree and engine decouple has shaken the field up a lot. It's no longer about a couple of specific flat out all ways superior Assaults and a couple flat out superior Heavies and a handful of Assaults and Heavies you can try to fill in with, then those 'whatever' mediums and lights of which 3 or 4 total, between both weight classes, even mattered.

There are mediums that can now absolutely contend with your MAD IIC or BLR in the hands of a good pilot. There some Lights that you should be cautious about and none of those are just whatever it used to be.

Simple version, try to drill down on what the mech already does well. Quit trying to replicate what you used to do - the game's changed. Refusing to adapt is a personal problem. If you're going to quit...

then quit. Not going to try and force anyone to stay. Saying that everyone else has to keep the same stale problems going because otherwise some players will cry and flounce isn't going to change anyones mind.

[MischiefSC]

Acehilator, on 19 May 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

The skill tree is decent... not sure if it was worth all the development time, though. Compensation was pretty generous. And even if I am not the biggest fan of the skill tree, quit your whining about the need to reskill.

Aux: 6 (or 1)
Sensors: 9 (+2 for long range, 13 for ECM mechs)
Operations: 9 (or 20)
Mobility: 15
Firepower: the rest, or take what you want and put the rest into Mobility

With that setup you can skill 95% of mechs in two minutes per mech (slow 90t+ mechs need more mobility, LRM boats more Sensors, some Dakka mechs less Operations). It is not that hard. It took six mechs and two days to figure out. Having trouble deciding the ultra-mega-optimal use of three out of 91 nodes doesn't count as a "problem", indiviual node worth is so low that it just does not matter when looking at the big picture.

I used to think that. However I'm finding, having talked with about 100 people now (all good players on good teams) that there's some very different ways to approach it. There's tons of top tier people who put up 700-1k matches consistently in QP and group queue who fill Firepower and Survival and 6 Aux and some Ops and ignore sensors and mobility. Running mediums and heavies, btw.

Conversely there's some people who do no ops, just firepower, mobility and some sensors and maybe a bit of aux. Again, great players who play consistently in the 700-1k range and 2k-3k in FW.

There's not really a default skill tree I'm finding. It lets you really drill down on your personal strengths and the strengths of a mech to get something tuned to how you play.

Absolutely there's some changes I'd like to see. Fewer 'general' nodes, more 'specialized' nodes and such but the concept is better than I had predicted. I like it.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 19 May 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

There's not really a default skill tree I'm finding. It lets you really drill down on your personal strengths and the strengths of a mech to get something tuned to how you play.

At this moment, people are still trying things out. But, just wait until the copy-and-pasta crowd get started in mass numbers ...

[Andi Nagasia]

is the Skill tree Perfect? no,
is it much better than we have? yes,
does it shake up the Meta? yes

ive seen VNDs getting 800damage games,
ive seen People mounting LRMs and AMS in QP,
ive seen CTFs & DRGs being amazing run again,

the Skill Tree is a Good thing,
what people are feeling is the Engine DeSync, but that also was coming,
both systems needed a rework, and we got it, this has been a major MWO Change,
we may not agree with all that was done, but when looking at the whole picture its been generally Good,
the system is good, perhaps not Perfect, but PGI has already said they will look to see which mechs still need help,

[Vonbach]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 May 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

is the Skill tree Perfect? no,
is it much better than we have? yes,
does it shake up the Meta? yes

ive seen VNDs getting 800damage games,
ive seen People mounting LRMs and AMS in QP,
ive seen CTFs & DRGs being amazing run again,

the Skill Tree is a Good thing,
what people are feeling is the Engine DeSync, but that also was coming,
both systems needed a rework, and we got it, this has been a major MWO Change,
we may not agree with all that was done, but when looking at the whole picture its been generally Good,
the system is good, perhaps not Perfect, but PGI has already said they will look to see which mechs still need help,

The skill tree is awful. It nerfs IS into the floor and buffs clans who were already too powerful to begin with.
The meta is even worse now with poptart snipers added to the mix and boy is that getting old.
Brawling is dead thanks to the torso twist nerf. All of this IS pilots saw coming. I'm having a hard time finding reasons to even bother playing. It simply isn't fun anymore.

Edited by Vonbach, 19 May 2017 - 09:15 AM.

[Baulven]

Jingseng, on 19 May 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

critics should stop criticizing and help pgi fix the game.

PGI stated in April of 2016 that player suggestions were unwelcome (town hall) so I am pretty sure that won't help. This perception is reinforced by the fact that they never bothered to even talk about the laundry list of issues the tree had after PTS2 that still existed in PTS 3.

[Andi Nagasia]

Vonbach, on 19 May 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

The skill tree is awful. It nerfs IS into the floor and buffs clans who were already too powerful to begin with.
The meta is even worse now with poptart snipers added to the mix and boy is that getting old.
Brawling is dead thanks to the torso twist nerf. All of this IS pilots saw coming. I'm having a hard time finding reasons to even bother playing. It simply isn't fun anymore.

im sorry but i have to disagree,
the SCR / TBR / MAD-IIC / KDK not turn like dump trucks if you dont take the mobility tree,
many IS mechs can run amazing Structure & armor and are inately more mobial than clan mechs,
Brawling dead? i was able to solo a KDK in my 6MPL CRB(Full Structure Tree) it was a good fight,
Meta worse? PopTarts did get better, but ive also seen LRMs AMS, Brawlers, Dakka DRGs, all seem better,
if you think IS is so much worse than clan now i would suggest you go test abit more, as such has not been my experience,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 May 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Par for the course when people point our glaring issues before release.