62 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Yes, Lights are getting it for free. Everybody else get nerfed sensors in your proposal, so Lights not scouting would hurt your team a lot. Like I already said, it's interesting and all, but in the end it is like the skill tree... WAY to much development time needed for too little gain.

actually its a pretty big gain. we get functional information warfare. with the ability to disrupt and disinform the enemy team. it adds a whole new layer of tactics to the game.

[SFC174]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

Until and unless we get active/passive radar or some other way to not show a giant red dorito of obvious, i will not support the removal of ECM's ability to remove the dorito. Its absolutely not possible to be stealthy in a game where you have a massive red 'shoot it here' sign every time you appear in LOS.

Short of putting visibility rules in like World of Tanks has, that's gonna be tough (which means I support keeping ECM largely as it was pre-ST). For those that don't know, in World of Tanks you have a view range, which can be improved with tech and/or crew skills. If a tank is outside that view range, regardless of whether it is LoS or not, you can't see it. But if someone else spots it, then you can see it beyond your view range. There are also stealth factors that an enemy can use to reduce your view range, from camo schemes or hiding behind bushes. Firing a weapon also reduces your stealth, so a spotting tank should not be shooting. Its a decent system, but implementing that in MWO could be tough. So much of current game play is predicated on people with big monitors at high res using the Mk1 Eyeball to spot you at 1000m+ and gank you with Gauss/PPC (not my favorite meta)

[Tarogato]

Acehilator, on 19 May 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

Pushing Lights into a scouting role isn't going to work. Most people are just not interested in that kind of gameplay.

Doesn't matter. Making lights better at info warfare doesn't necessarily change how people play lights, it simply gives lights more value.

[Khobai]

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Short of putting visibility rules in like World of Tanks has, that's gonna be tough

thats not really an option though.

which is why I suggested weapons doing zero damage beyond optimum range without a sensor lock.

thats the only way I can think of making sensor locks actually matter.

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Doesn't matter. Making lights better at info warfare doesn't necessarily change how people play lights, it simply gives lights more value.

exactly. and it gives them more options for how to help their team. options which they dont have now.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2017 - 07:19 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

thats not really an option though.

which is why I suggested weapons doing zero damage beyond optimum range without a sensor lock.

thats the only way I can think of making sensor locks actually matter.

There is another option: pinpoint convergence on lock, fixed convergence (player set) in the absence of one.

[Acehilator]

Tarogato, on 19 May 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

Doesn't matter. Making lights better at info warfare doesn't necessarily change how people play lights, it simply gives lights more value.

I don't care if Lights get additional Info Warfare capabilities. I am just firmly against reducing other mech classes abilities at the same time.

[Lily from animove]

I kinda disagree.

The skill tree if executed correctly could server a LOT purposes.

What failed is: 91 nodes competing across all trees.

This sucks as it does not serve any purposes.

why not special and deeper and more information based skill trees for lights? why not extra 20 skills with some extra 15 points too be invested but dedicated only to the sensor skill tree.

The current iteration of skill trees seriously is cheap and badly done as it makes every mech having the same skill trees. skills trees had all the potential, yet they have not utilised it at all.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 May 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

How is it pushing lights into a scouting role? theyre getting it for free.

You can play a scout. Or you can play a harasser. Or you can play a support light like a kitfox. You can still play however you want.

All it does is create the option to scout. It doesnt make it compulsory.

Its no different then choosing to play an LRM assault, a brawler assault, or a sniper assault. Your choice of how to play has consequences that you have to deal with. If you choose to not to scout then you better do a lot of damage to make up for it. Just like playing an LRM assault has consequences, youre not on the frontline sharing damage, so you need to LRM extra hard to make up for that.



And there would be a reward. Lights would get a percentage credit of any damage done to mechs beyond optimum range that they spotted and locked onto.

It doesn't directly, though if they did this then they probably wouldn't buff them in other ways, or they would get nerfed. I would rather something a little different, like boosts to base in other areas (agility and armor/internals always help, maybe some boost to sensors) and seismic,ecm, and radar dep moved up so you can max them quicker with less extra nodes or to another tree like you said. Then maybe add some sensor nodes and just have it as more of a specialist type of thing. The players that do want to build a true scout could but the players that just want radar dep, ecm, and seismic could get them without all that extra stuff. What does my ecm spl light need ~28% extra sensor range for if I'm just rushing? Basically set the skill nodes up for a bit more specialization.

Edited by dario03, 19 May 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[cazidin]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

How is it pushing lights into a scouting role? theyre getting it for free.

You can play a scout. Or you can play a harasser. Or you can play a support light like a kitfox. You can still play however you want.

All it does is create the option to scout. It doesnt make it compulsory.

Its no different then choosing to play an LRM assault, a brawler assault, or a sniper assault. Your choice of how to play has consequences that you have to deal with. If you choose to not to scout then you better do a lot of damage to make up for it. Just like playing an LRM assault has consequences, youre not on the frontline sharing damage, so you need to LRM extra hard to make up for that.

Game developers very rarely understand the difference between "Yeah, you can do this and it's competitive" and "You MUST do this! You can't do ANYTHING else optimally!". I don't particularly trust PGI, or even Bethesda with that distinction. Also, I didn't mean to attack your idea - I'm just stating that we have to be very clear on rewarding scouting generously.

[Widowmaker1981]

SFC174, on 19 May 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Short of putting visibility rules in like World of Tanks has, that's gonna be tough (which means I support keeping ECM largely as it was pre-ST). For those that don't know, in World of Tanks you have a view range, which can be improved with tech and/or crew skills. If a tank is outside that view range, regardless of whether it is LoS or not, you can't see it. But if someone else spots it, then you can see it beyond your view range. There are also stealth factors that an enemy can use to reduce your view range, from camo schemes or hiding behind bushes. Firing a weapon also reduces your stealth, so a spotting tank should not be shooting. Its a decent system, but implementing that in MWO could be tough. So much of current game play is predicated on people with big monitors at high res using the Mk1 Eyeball to spot you at 1000m+ and gank you with Gauss/PPC (not my favorite meta)

ECMs dorito removal works fine as it stands, as long as you are using cover as well and not just standing around in the open. I dont need/want to be invisible, i just dont want a red triangle telegraphing my location all the time.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 19 May 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I kinda disagree.

The skill tree if executed correctly could server a LOT purposes.

What failed is: 91 nodes competing across all trees.

This sucks as it does not serve any purposes.

why not special and deeper and more information based skill trees for lights? why not extra 20 skills with some extra 15 points too be invested but dedicated only to the sensor skill tree.

The current iteration of skill trees seriously is cheap and badly done as it makes every mech having the same skill trees. skills trees had all the potential, yet they have not utilised it at all.

Having a skill tree per chassis would be hard and time consuming. Having one per variant makes those even worse.

Thus MVP.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The sensor skill tree is the best skill tree. It is the one I max first on all my Mechs. Next comes mobility and others after that.

The sensor tree gives me the capacity that would have required 5 + modules and lets scouts be more scoutier than ever before.

[Khobai]

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The sensor skill tree is the best skill tree.

no its one of the worst skill trees with skills like radar derp and seismic being walled off by useless skills like sensor range and target info gathering

combining the operations and sensors tree into one skill tree would allow for the removal of all the bad skills and the walling of good skills behind those bad skills.

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why not special and deeper and more information based skill trees for lights?

because no one is going to put skill points into those skills willingly. the only reason people put skills into them now is because theyre forced to in order to get things like radar derp and seismic.

the stick approach is the wrong approach. they need to use a carrot approach. walling good skills behind bad skills is not good design because it eliminates player choice by forcing them to take things they dont want to get the few good things that are worth spending skill points on. a better design is one where every skill is good and there are no bad skills at all.

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The sensor tree gives me the capacity that would have required 5 + modules and lets scouts be more scoutier than ever before.

it doesnt let scouts be more scoutier because scouting isnt even a thing in this game. sensors have almost no purpose. the game has no information warfare either. so yeah having a crappy sensor skill tree that holds the game back in numerous ways is not good. It definitely needs to be nuked.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2017 - 07:36 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i actually like how the Trees are set up, though locking targets should have more of a use,

[Bishop Steiner]

Just because you can't figure out how to use, it, doesn't make it useless. My Mad Dog and Catapults both find it VERY useful.

It's not just scouts that use Sensors.

[Imperius]

Assaults shouldn't have to skill in firepower to be assaults!

Moral of the story?

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 19 May 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

The sensor skill tree is the best skill tree. It is the one I max first on all my Mechs. Next comes mobility and others after that.

The sensor tree gives me the capacity that would have required 5 + modules and lets scouts be more scoutier than ever before.

I'd say if you are blanket maxxing it on everything...then you are really missing the point of the Skill Web, to begin with, as many mechs, like say a Brawler, receive minimal real benefit as opposed to using those points to Survival or Firepower.

That said, any Scout, LRM Mech, or SOme Skirmisher Set Ups? Can be very useful.

About the only Node Web that really stands out as mandatory to invest in, across the board? Operations. Though usually 3/4 investment is enough in it.

Imperius, on 19 May 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Assaults shouldn't have to skill in firepower to be assaults!

And they don't.

[Imperius]

I'm not arguing over the skill tree. Lights should have to skill into scout perks. Remember I've been told time and time again that your job is not to scout. Lights are supposed to be brawlers according to the vocal few on here always complaining lights suck.

Lights are plenty powerful in the game. You don't have to watch what you run into, hills and rocks for the most part don't matter, you're fast so if you run into the enemy team usually you're able to retreat and run back to the safety of your team, you can rack up enough firepower to kill most mechs by shooting their backs 1-2 times. Assaults suck enough already.

[Alexander of Macedon]

It's basically just the LRM tree + the price for radar derp and full ECM in practice. Dunno what they were thinking, letting you get the full benefit of like six modules for ~25 nodes. Anything that wants them will love it, everything else is indifferent except for derp.

[Cy Mitchell]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

no its one of the worst skill trees with skills like radar derp and seismic being walled off by useless skills like sensor range and target info gathering

1. Hiding Radar Derp and Seismic sensor behind lesser skill makes those powerful skill cost more to get and makes you give up something to get them. That is why it is set up like it is. Those modules used to cost 6 mil to purchase where others cost 3 mil or less. That is the same idea except for the fact that there is such a glut of C-Bills in MWO that it really was not much of a sacrifice for everyone to get them. Now you have to use something more precious. You have to use SP which you might want to use to get more Firepower for example. It forces you to decide what is most important to you and then make a choice.

2. Those "useless skills" like Sensor Range help you nullify that ECM that you hate so much. Each point in Sensor range allows you to target that ECM Mech that much sooner. It helps you see and get locks on opponents before they can do the same to you. Hardly useless.

3. Just because you choose not to use the Sensor Tree does not mean it should be removed.