62 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

Dogstar, on 19 May 2017 - 06:29 AM, said:

Lights, apart from their speed, do not make good scouts because they do not have tonnage to spare for anything but the essentials.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the maps are more to blame for lights not being good scouts, you know, seeing as most maps are bloody freaking tiny compared to the sort of maps you'd be likely to find while playing table top, which can get upwards of like 6 feet long, which would probably equate to about 6 kilometers long if you translated that to MWO.

If we had maps as big as that, then lights might have more of a role in scouting.

[Imperius]

Alan Davion, on 19 May 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Maybe it's just me, but I think the maps are more to blame for lights not being good scouts, you know, seeing as most maps are bloody freaking tiny compared to the sort of maps you'd be likely to find while playing table top, which can get upwards of like 6 feet long, which would probably equate to about 6 kilometers long if you translated that to MWO.

If we had maps as big as that, then lights might have more of a role in scouting.

Agreed I've said for a long long time. The map should be the balancing of how you want people to play, and we need to go back to 8 v 8!

[mike29tw]

Mystere, on 19 May 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

There is another option: pinpoint convergence on lock, fixed convergence (player set) in the absence of one.

This is a convergence nerf I can get behind.

[Khobai]

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Maybe it's just me, but I think the maps are more to blame for lights not being good scouts, you know, seeing as most maps are bloody freaking tiny compared to the sort of maps you'd be likely to find while playing table top, which can get upwards of like 6 feet long, which would probably equate to about 6 kilometers long if you translated that to MWO.

If we had maps as big as that, then lights might have more of a role in scouting.

but even in an heavy or assault mech you can spot enemy mechs from like 4km away just using your eyeballs

so what good would bigger maps do? the problem with scouting isnt that maps arnt big enough. the problem is that sensors dont do anything worthwhile.

sensors need to contribute something more profound and tactical to the game. And light mechs should have the best sensors and benefit the most from that change.

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1. Hiding Radar Derp and Seismic sensor behind lesser skill makes those powerful skill cost more to get and makes you give up something to get them.

There are other ways to make you give up something to get them without forcing you to take useless skills. There should be no useless skills on the skill tree.

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Those "useless skills" like Sensor Range help you nullify that ECM that you hate so much. Each point in Sensor range allows you to target that ECM Mech that much sooner

Except ECM shouldnt grant stealth in the first place.

For granting stealth we should have passive radar mode and stealth armor.

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3. Just because you choose not to use the Sensor Tree does not mean it should be removed.

And thats not why I said it should be removed. If you actually read my post youd see there are very good reasons why it should be removed. Because it prevents us from having proper information warfare and proper role warfare.

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Khobai, on 20 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

but even in an heavy or assault mech you can spot enemy mechs from like 4km away just using your eyeballs

so what good would bigger maps do? the problem with scouting isnt that maps arnt big enough. the problem is that sensors dont do anything worthwhile.

sensors need to contribute something more profound and tactical to the game. And light mechs should have the best sensors and benefit the most from that change.

I never said that the maps were the only problem, just that they were more of a problem. There are other factors that contribute, sensors being another of the key offenders, which I completely agree with you on.

On the other side of the coin though, PGI tried messing with sensors once before, which ROYALLY blew up in their faces. Yes I know it was almost entirely the "reduced laser range without lock on" that ultimately screwed Info War, but they screwed up a lot of other stuff too... The whole "Dire Wolf with only 250 meter sensor range" thing comes to mind, but that was more because they were just changing too much all at once and it got lost in the shuffle.

Another factor which I think a lot of people have shouted down when it comes to sensors and larger maps are atmospheric effects. Your MK 1 eyeballs won't be spotting a light mech, moving through a dense forest, with a driving rain obscuring your vision along with thick cloud cover.

Problem is that slows down game play because people can't shoot all da lazors as soon as they see something moving, so it ruins the e-peen stroking of the ultra-comps.

If PGI implemented weather effects, alongside bigger maps and changes to sensor mechanics, lights would make invaluable scouts.

But that would require actual thought and real effort on their part, something which they've continually demonstrated they are incapable of.

[Cy Mitchell]

Khobai, on 20 May 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Except ECM shouldnt grant stealth in the first place.

For granting stealth we should have passive radar mode and stealth armor.

Stealth armor is IS only.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 19 May 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Sensor skill tree is good for every robit.

Honestly the sensor tree is irrelevant for coordinated teams, who then have a clear advantage over players spending points on sensors.

I put zero there on most of my mechs so far, with the bulk of SP being spent on Firepower, Structure, Agility and if it's needed - ops.

I usually also grab +1 consumable slot + related buffs.

Edited by Ultimax, 20 May 2017 - 08:23 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Ultimax, on 20 May 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Sensor tree is irrelevant for coordinated teams, who then have a clear advantage over players spending points on sensors.

There's a good reason most of my mechs post-patch have zero points in sensors.

I only solo PUG. So for me, it is a lifesaver.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 20 May 2017 - 08:23 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 20 May 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

I only solo PUG. So for me, it is a lifesaver.

I mean, I can see that for Radar Dep & Seismic and not having anything but the keystone cops on your team - but it does create an odd imbalance because of how it's simply not needed if you are on TS with a decent squad.

[Mister Blastman]

Ultimax, on 20 May 2017 - 08:24 PM, said:

I mean, I can see that for Radar Dep & Seismic and not having anything but the keystone cops on your team - but it does create an odd imbalance because of how it's simply not needed if you are on TS with a decent squad.

Yeah, I can see how it is a waste with a squad. I simply don't have the time nor tolerance to deal with other people, so PUG works perfectly for me, and thus, I'm surrounded by clowns so it's my *** or eating grass.

[Queen of England]

Alan Davion, on 19 May 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Maybe it's just me, but I think the maps are more to blame for lights not being good scouts, you know, seeing as most maps are bloody freaking tiny compared to the sort of maps you'd be likely to find while playing table top, which can get upwards of like 6 feet long, which would probably equate to about 6 kilometers long if you translated that to MWO.

If we had maps as big as that, then lights might have more of a role in scouting.

A normal BattleTech map is 22" x 18" and is 17 x 15 hexes. 6' is about 3 maps, or 51 (+1 for the half hexes on the end, I suppose) hexes. Each BattleTech hex is 30 meters, so a 6' long map represents a distance of about 1.5 km.

The default rules for scenario creation (in the BattleTech Master Rules, at least) call for 1 mapsheet for every 4 'mechs in play, so a company-on-company battle like the one in MWO would use 6 mapsheets.

Edited by Queen of England, 20 May 2017 - 10:26 PM.

[JC Daxion]

honestly man,, You say you don't like it, dont take it.

Personally i like adding major sensors to keep mechs targeted for 5+ secs, cause the other guy doesnt take radar dep...

[Dee Eight]

Acehilator, on 19 May 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

Pushing Lights into a scouting role isn't going to work. Most people are just not interested in that kind of gameplay.

I AM. So is everyone else who takes out a light mech with ERPPC/ERLL, Narcs, etc... that's the very definition of scouting and harassing mechs.

[Dogstar]

Queen of England, on 20 May 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

A normal BattleTech map is 22" x 18" and is 17 x 15 hexes. 6' is about 3 maps, or 51 (+1 for the half hexes on the end, I suppose) hexes. Each BattleTech hex is 30 meters, so a 6' long map represents a distance of about 1.5 km.

The default rules for scenario creation (in the BattleTech Master Rules, at least) call for 1 mapsheet for every 4 'mechs in play, so a company-on-company battle like the one in MWO would use 6 mapsheets.

But aren't TT mapsheets only about 5-600m across? It's a long time (20+ years) since I played the TT game so my recollection may be quite poor

Dee Eight, on 21 May 2017 - 01:34 AM, said:

I AM. So is everyone else who takes out a light mech with ERPPC/ERLL, Narcs, etc... that's the very definition of scouting and harassing mechs.

Do you mean 'take out' as in take a mech out for a drive or do you mean 'take out' as in take the mech out of play by shooting it, because I don't quite get what you're saying - I think you mean the former rather than the latter?

If so then I'm not against lights as scouts if it's by choice, it's when people say that being a scout, on behalf of the LRM boats and others too lazy to get locks, is the only role a light is allowed to have that I object.

Edited by Dogstar, 21 May 2017 - 01:44 AM.

[JadePanther]

Because unlocking 2 skill nodes of radar DERP to get the 2 ECM nodes is truely a WTF moment that should have happend when they were drawing it up.. Seriously 2/3 of the ecm mechs dont really need the DERP even if they didnt have ECM. then when u add ECM DERP becomes a totally useless thing...

just why must i take something that the next thing compeltely defeats the purpose of.. its like giving you 2 lightweight tires for a bicycle to go faster then handing you the keys to a Ferrari with an unlimited gas card, guess which ones getting used to get u across the country.

[Bellum Dominum]

Yeah there are quite a few more light/scout pilots than I think some on this thread realize. Not our fault if the groups you play with don't make use of the intel we gather.

As far as having to take radar derp in order to get the ecm skill nodes... yeah I see both sides but lean with the crowd that one should not HAVE to do so.

As far as the other enhancements in the skill tree... woah is it a nice freaking boost regardless of what mech I am in. Admittedly I don't use it in every mech of course but I do use it in every category.

So yeah I have to strongly disagree with the OP. Thing is just because YOU don't use some thing, or YOUR friends don't doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't and it certainly doesn't mean that it is not part of top tier play.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 23 May 2017 - 09:25 AM.

[Paigan]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

[...]
Sensor Suites
Instead of the sensor skill tree all mechs should just have basic, intermediate, or advanced sensor suites in their sensors cockpit slot.
[...]

Why does that sound so familiar? Was that from ... Cyberstorm?

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Maps would have to be larger than polar highlands for scouting to mean a damn thing, as information on movements would mean win or loss in most cases.

[Khobai]

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So yeah I have to strongly disagree with the OP. Thing is just because YOU don't use some thing, or YOUR friends don't doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't and it certainly doesn't mean that it is not part of top tier play.

You have completely missed the point.

The point is to add better information warfare to the game.

And the current sensor skill tree impedes that. If is not about whether I want to take the skill nodes or not. Its about the sensor tree being wholly inadequate at providing what the game truly needs for proper information warfare.

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Maps would have to be larger than polar highlands for scouting to mean a damn thing, as information on movements would mean win or loss in most cases.

We dont need bigger maps. All thats required to make scouting matter is to tie sensors directly into peoples ability to do damage (i.e. weapons do no damage beyond optimum range without a sensor lock). Suddenly you have a reason to actually use sensors and obtain and hold sensor locks. And you offer a reward to light mechs that do just that. Thats the first step.

The second step is adding abilities that can manipulate the flow of information. By being able to create false radar contacts and/or sever enemy mechs from their team's sensor networks. If a bunch of radar contacts appear on your flank, you have to go scout it out to verify if theyre fake or real.

Lastly by giving assaults/heavies worse sensors than lights/mediums you create a dependency which is the essence of role warfare. Not every weight class should be able to do everything and each weight class should have to depend on the other weight classes. That would make the game much more tactical and teambased.

Edited by Khobai, 23 May 2017 - 12:09 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 23 May 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Maps would have to be larger than polar highlands for scouting to mean a damn thing, as information on movements would mean win or loss in most cases.

Except on the other side of the coin you'd then have the impatient as f*** MLG-Wannabe Try-Hards complaining "Wah~ It takes more than 30 seconds for me to get somewhere that I can shoot. Wah~ This walking simulator sucks."

Which are the last kind of people we need in this game anyway, so bigger maps would go a long way towards removing that rabble from our midst.