21 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why did PGI double nerf ECM? First by reducing the maximum total benefit of ECM coverage and then second by gating most of it behind the sensor tree. No other piece of equipment has to invest that heavily. Even AMS, which also shouldn't be in the skill tree IMO, requires very minimal investment for the overload skill. BAP/CAP require zero investment.

[Zoeff]

Because ECM is (was) an extremely powerful tool for just 1 or 1.5 tons. AMS can be replaced by a large boulder and BAP/CAP give you some more sensor range and being able to detect shut down mechs. I don't really see that comparing to ECM which can easily increase your firing window by 2 seconds before the enemy reacts to you and by that time you've already fired your weapons and are going back behind cover.

[Monkey Lover]

I'm guessing because of the stealth armor coming out as it requires ecm.. I bet you will be able to use it without the extra nodes at the cost of tonnage/heat.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 20 May 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[fat4eyes]

Fully specced ECM is still as good as it ever was. You just give up a little bit from the other trees to use it. Along with seismic and radar dep its still the best value nodes for light and medium mechs that rely on not getting shot.

[SFC174]

fat4eyes, on 20 May 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

Fully specced ECM is still as good as it ever was. You just give up a little bit from the other trees to use it. Along with seismic and radar dep its still the best value nodes for light and medium mechs that rely on not getting shot.

Precisely. They vastly increased the opportunity cost of using ECM. It's a nerf. Some people here think that's a good thing, but personally I was happy with it the way it was. It made ECM mechs special, and they usually had to sacrifice something else to get it (omnimechs not so much). For example, the MAD-IIC-D has ECM, but it also has what is perhaps the worst hardpoint setup in the entire MAD-IIC lineup. Even with omnimechs, the HBR has inferior hitboxes and hardpoints compared to its identical tonnage EBJ sibling.

I do think the release of stealth armor is a big part of the nerf too. Gotta have a reason to use it, and if ECM makes it redundant......

[Ultimax]

cazidin, on 20 May 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Why did PGI double nerf ECM?

There are more potato tier players than anything else, so they are working to create more ways to cater to them as potato tier players have wallets the same as good players.

[FupDup]

It was nerfed to "compensate" for the skill tree buffs.

Just as the UAC/2 and general quirks were nerfed for the same reason.

And agility for nearly every mech in the game.

At this rate I'm surprised that PGI didn't nerf every single weapon to "compensate" for the skill tree.

[cazidin]

Zoeff, on 20 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Because ECM is (was) an extremely powerful tool for just 1 or 1.5 tons. AMS can be replaced by a large boulder and BAP/CAP give you some more sensor range and being able to detect shut down mechs. I don't really see that comparing to ECM which can easily increase your firing window by 2 seconds before the enemy reacts to you and by that time you've already fired your weapons and are going back behind cover.

'Member the delayed lock from the Energy Draw PTS that was universally agreed to be a fair and intelligent approach to balancing ECM and that was thrown in the closet with Energy Draw and the Wii U?

I 'member that! Ooo!

[sycocys]

Because they didn't actually want to bother fixing ecm.

[El Bandito]

ECM is a no-brainer equipment. PGI perhaps wants to offer alternatives as more attractive choice. Either sacrifice nodes to get your Jesus box, or equip another omnipod/variant for more firepower/durability etc...

Edited by El Bandito, 20 May 2017 - 05:03 PM.

[Insanity09]

However, without the skill nodes (at least 1), ECM is now a joke. 560m baseline? Please.

The nerfing also doesn't seem to have taken into account the proliferation of sensor range equipped mechs (basically, anyone who does anything with the sensor tree).
So, even with both ECM nodes, you are still kinda up a creek against a significantly higher number of enemies (800M base detect [-30%base ecm - 45%ecm skill nodes + 5/5 sensor range nodes 35%] = 480m detection range, ouch) Goodness help you if you're up against someone packing a C/BAP.

(Edit: Btw, given that LRMers are probably the most important folks to prevent locks from, or most common, anybody who takes all the Target Decay nodes will get at least 3 sensor range nodes in the bargain, and if they go for radar dep they'll have at least 4. 4 nodes yields 424m detect, 3 yields 368m)

ECM already had a number of counters, ranging from just shooting them anyhow, they're not invisible, having B/CAP, using your own ECM in counter mode, to using tag or narc. Those latter help, btw, even when there are no streaks or LRMs involved, narc especially.

So, the logic of nerfing ECM to this level, given the other circumstances, baffles and frustrates me.

Nerfing ECM hurts lighter mechs more than heavier, and lighter stuff didn't need to be hampered further.

(There is also the supposed possibility that any sensor bonuses are added independently of the ECM reductions, which yields an ultimate detection distance of 270m. However, that does not seem to be the number I'm seeing when I detect enemies with ECM with my 5/5 sensor mechs.)

Edited by Insanity09, 20 May 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[TB Nachtwulf]

Personally, I think ECM should be a 1 ton 1 slot (as it is) but with each enhancement to it costing another ton and slot to represent the installing of extra components. If you want the best ECM, you'really going to have to sacrifice room and weight for other weapons and components.

[SFC174]

Insanity09, on 20 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

(There is also the supposed possibility that any sensor bonuses are added independently of the ECM reductions, which yields an ultimate detection distance of 270m. However, that does not seem to be the number I'm seeing when I detect enemies with ECM with my 5/5 sensor mechs.)

I thought you took overall detection range first and then subtracted the ECM percentage. So 800m base detect + 35% bonus would give you 1080m detection range. Full ECM knocks 75% off that, so you'd have 270m detection at that point which is what you calculated. If that is not how its playing out in game (I haven't run any full sensor suite skill trees) I'd definitely like to know. They broke AMS, they broke TimberWolf accel/decel, so its possible they broke ECM as well, but that's a little less obvious.

[Gas Guzzler]

Zoeff, on 20 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

Because ECM is (was) an extremely powerful tool for just 1 or 1.5 tons. AMS can be replaced by a large boulder and BAP/CAP give you some more sensor range and being able to detect shut down mechs. I don't really see that comparing to ECM which can easily increase your firing window by 2 seconds before the enemy reacts to you and by that time you've already fired your weapons and are going back behind cover.

Does that mean mechs with ECM won't be punished in the quirk department anymore?

[Fiona Marshe]

SFC174, on 20 May 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

I thought you took overall detection range first and then subtracted the ECM percentage. So 800m base detect + 35% bonus would give you 1080m detection range. Full ECM knocks 75% off that, so you'd have 270m detection at that point which is what you calculated. If that is not how its playing out in game (I haven't run any full sensor suite skill trees) I'd definitely like to know. They broke AMS, they broke TimberWolf accel/decel, so its possible they broke ECM as well, but that's a little less obvious.

All adjustments are based on Base Detect range.
800 + (Sensor nodes; 800m*0.35%) + (Command Console; 800m*0.06%) + (BAP; 800m*0.25%) - (ECM+nodes; 800m*0.75%)
800 + 280 + 48 + 200 - 600 = 728m maximum detection range of ECM mechs.

I was sure there were plans to drop the base sensors to 600m; but due to the original Sensor Warfare Test Server being shut-down due to hatemail, it may have been missed.

[Weeny Machine]

The problem was that ECM was not ECM but a Guardian Angel Suit and Null Signature Device.

The double nerf is therefore fine and in a way necessary if you want to add new tech in the future which is made obsolete by ECM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

My ECM mechs are stll fine. Most have taken two nodes, some can handle them with one node.

I agree most ECM mechs, at least Clan, are pretty powerful snipers thanks to the ECM.

[Pjwned]

They didn't nerf it enough, since stealth armor should be the only thing that does what ECM does now and it should never benefit allies.

The nerf did help to make it less of a jesus box though at least.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 May 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Does that mean mechs with ECM won't be punished in the quirk department anymore?

No. It still will, because rather than implement the longer decay to replace perma no lock, PGI will break it further.

Pjwned, on 21 May 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:

They didn't nerf it enough, since stealth armor should be the only thing that does what ECM does now and it should never benefit allies.

The nerf did help to make it less of a jesus box though at least.

Didn't nerf it enough? I'd argue that it's now about as desirable as the IS Command Console - which PGI is "fixing" by adding TC rather than buff it.

[G4LV4TR0N]

Are ECM detection scrambling percentage values based of default 800m mech range or based of adjusted mech range(like when having CAP and 5 Sensor nodes)?

Also, when used together, are CAP, TC, Skill Tree and other bonus(like Cyclops quirk) detection percentage values based of base value of 800 or adjusted in more geometric way?