63 replies to this topic

[grendeldog]

So I was checking out the difference between my two Grasshopper-5H mechs - one unskilled as a control variable and one with skill points. I noticed something that's really galling me: armor hardening is basically a useless SP sink that will do nothing (unless you sink over 10% of your SP into reaching several armor hardening nodes).

I put only one skilll point into armor hardening. That gave me a bonus of 1.6%. Now, multiplying that by the armor values for my side torsi gives 60 * 1.016 = 60.96. Yet when I view my mech there is no armor bonus on the sides.

On my CT which has 90 armor by default I see one extra point. This is because 90 * 1.016 = 91.44.

This is hugely important - the value you get is rounded down!

If you have less than 63 armor points on a component, one SP in armor hardening will do nothing. 62 * 1.016 = 62.992, which will be rounded down too 62.

If you have 63 points of armor on a component you'll get 63 * 1.016 = 64.008, which gives you one extra point of armor.

The only way to get to that 1.6% bonus is to spend 4 SP. To get to a 3.2% bonus you'll spend minimum 6 SP; to get 4.8% bonus you'll have to sink 8 SP. With a 4.8% bonus, you still need at least 43 points of armor to get even one point of extra armor on a given component.

Is that really worth using up 11.375 percent of your possible SP pool? Hell no!

I realize that tat the values for how much one unlocked hex of armor hardening change based on whether the mech is light, medium, heavy, or assault. I'm just pointing out that to get reasonable amounts of extra armor you'd need to spec severalhexes, and because of their spacing you're taking out a huge chunk of SP that could be placed elsewhere in the pool.

Any thoughts? Criticisms of my argument? Anybody want to spreadsheet warrior the values for lights, mediums, and assaults?

Edited by grendeldog, 21 May 2017 - 12:46 PM.

[FupDup]

One of the devs confirmed in a another thread that armor and structure are not rounded at all. The decimal health values still count in-game. This is just a UI issue.

In general, the armor/structure skills give the most benefit to mechs that already have decent quirks of the same type because they stack together.

[Queen of England]

FupDup, on 21 May 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

One of the devs confirmed in a another thread that armor and structure are not rounded at all. The decimal health values still count in-game. This is just a UI issue.

In general, the armor/structure skills give the most benefit to mechs that already have decent quirks of the same type because they stack together.

Here's a direct link to Chris' comment.

[Paigan]

FupDup, on 21 May 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

One of the devs confirmed in a another thread that armor and structure are not rounded at all. The decimal health values still count in-game. This is just a UI issue.
[...]

this
Difference between display and actual business logic.
A lot of people think the UI "is" the game, which is of course hilariously wrong.

[Coolant]

your post OP does not provide proof at all that Armor Hardening is worthless. The only thing you have proven is that it requires more than 1 Skill Point to make a difference.

[Revis Volek]

Coolant, on 21 May 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

your post OP does not provide proof at all that Armor Hardening is worthless. The only thing you have proven is that it requires more than 1 Skill Point to make a difference.

Very few of the skill trees are worth just ONE SP or even a half a dozen SP.


The same could be said for cooldown or heat gen (those values are actually smaller per node) and a lot of the tree. One point wont get you anything. The only tree that ONE SP matters or is worth it in is the extra consumable slot in the AUX/MISC tree and MAYBE the first JJ heat gen one which gives you -6% to yours jj heat if you have a lot of jj's.

Edited by Revis Volek, 21 May 2017 - 01:33 PM.

[grendeldog]

Paigan, on 21 May 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

this
Difference between display and actual business logic.
A lot of people think the UI "is" the game, which is of course hilariously wrong.

It's hilariously bad because I do know the difference between UI and game code.

I've worked game development and web development and programmed my arse off. I used Starcraft 2's map editor to make an FPS, I've made a tactical squad based prototype game in Unity, I've recreated 80% of Wordpress features in MySQL and PHP and Javascript.

I know how games are programmed. This is a massive UI fail for normal players, and an even more egregious one for those of us who do understand how games work. I see an integer value I assume it's an integer; I see a floating point (meaning it has a decimal place) and I think floating point.

Coolant, on 21 May 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

your post OP does not provide proof at all that Armor Hardening is worthless. The only thing you have proven is that it requires more than 1 Skill Point to make a difference.

I've shown that it'll take around 10% of your SP pool for one to two more points of armor. I just checked with my lights and the results were about the same - 10% of the SP pool for one to two points more of armor.

Is one to two more points of armor worth 10% of my SP pool? In my opinion? Aw hell no.

Revis Volek, on 21 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Very few of the skill trees are worth just ONE SP or even a half a dozen SP.


The same could be said for cooldown or heat gen (those values are actually smaller per node) and a lot of the tree. One point wont get you anything. The only tree that ONE SP matters or is worth it in is the extra consumable slot in the AUX/MISC tree and MAYBE the first JJ heat gen one which gives you -6% to yours jj heat if you have a lot of jj's.

Valid point for sure. I just think that the values aren't worth it in the health tree. Structure bonuses are a bit better on a per hex value, but armor seems like a waste of SP to me.

Edited by grendeldog, 21 May 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[Wintersdark]

grendeldog, on 21 May 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Is one to two more points of armor worth 10% of my SP pool? In my opinion? Aw hell no.

Valid point for sure. I just think that the values aren't worth it in the health tree. Structure bonuses are a bit better on a per hex value, but armor seems like a waste of SP to me.

You get more points of structure than you do of armor (at least, a higher percentage) because armor is objectively better than structure. Once you're hitting structure, you're getting crits, and crits damage equipment AND roll 15% damage back into the structure.

So, point for point, you get a "larger" return on structure.

Now, in terms of "percentage of your skill tree pool", armor on it's own is not worth it. Structure on it's own is probably not worth it either. But if you're getting one, then getting both happens at a much lower cost.

Also note that the percentage values differ based on tonnage; they're not static.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

If you believe that the armor tree is worthless (its not) then take a look at what 11.375% of your skill nodes (That's 10.35125 skill nodes, why aren't you using actual numbers people will use?) will get you in other trees.

Really though, defense values may be small numbers and percents, but in game they are the difference between life and death, the difference between being killed in 2 shots or surviving 2 shots and watching the enemy overheat infront of you and killing him before he fires off a third. When you also factor in damage spreading, its not just the few points that the CT gains that matters, but the whole of the upper torso.

I always make sure to max out my survival tree. Every match I survive with a red opened up CT and opened up side torsos is a match I would have died in if I didn't take them.

[Scout Derek]

Dakota1000, on 21 May 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

If you believe that the armor tree is worthless (its not) then take a look at what 11.375% of your skill nodes (That's 10.35125 skill nodes, why aren't you using actual numbers people will use?) will get you in other trees.

Really though, defense values may be small numbers and percents, but in game they are the difference between life and death, the difference between being killed in 2 shots or surviving 2 shots and watching the enemy overheat infront of you and killing him before he fires off a third. When you also factor in damage spreading, its not just the few points that the CT gains that matters, but the whole of the upper torso.

I always make sure to max out my survival tree. Every match I survive with a red opened up CT and opened up side torsos is a match I would have died in if I didn't take them.

For me, I make sure to grab as many Armor and Structure nodes as I can. I usually spend about 34 nodes in it, then use the rest for whatever I need.

[Wintersdark]

On my locust, armor is 2.6% per facing per point, with up to 10 points.

That's a 26% armor gain, which is with 138 points of armor base + 18 quirk = 156 * .26 = 40.56 bonus armor for 10 skill points.

That's a reasonable amount of armor on a 20t mech; it's a full 1.2 tons of armor with Ferro Fibrous armor installed.

Or, on the other end of the scale, how about an Atlas? It's all structure quirks, so it's not gaining more from the quirks.

On a 100t assault, you're gaining 1% armor per point.

614 base armor points means you gain an additional 61.4 points of armor overall! That's an extra 2 tons of armor on your mech.

Neither of these are insignificant. They're not huge numbers per facing, but there's a substantial amount of added survivability, particularly once you consider that you'll add both Armor and Structure, not one or the other. Your basically adding 2-4 tons of extra health to your mech via the Survival Tree.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 May 2017 - 02:17 PM.

[Spheroid]

Remarkable proof [/sarcasm]

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Wintersdark, on 21 May 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

On my locust, armor is 2.6% per facing per point, with up to 10 points.

That's a 26% armor gain, which is with 138 points of armor base + 18 quirk = 156 * .26 = 40.56 bonus armor for 10 skill points.

That's a reasonable amount of armor on a 20t mech; it's a full 1.2 tons of armor with Ferro Fibrous armor installed.

Or, on the other end of the scale, how about an Atlas? It's all structure quirks, so it's not gaining more from the quirks.

On a 100t assault, you're gaining 1% armor per point.

614 base armor points means you gain an additional 61.4 points of armor overall! That's an extra 2 tons of armor on your mech.

Neither of these are insignificant. They're not huge numbers per facing, but there's a substantial amount of added survivability, particularly once you consider that you'll add both Armor and Structure, not one or the other. Your basically adding 2-4 tons of extra health to your mech via the Survival Tree.

Its even better in the middle of the tree rather than the ends. Find one of those mechs with big armor quirks such as the Dragon.

You get 18% more armor and 33% more structure. Dragon comes with high defense quirks +16 CT armor and +10 CT structure. 80 armor and 40 structure base. 96 armor and 50 structure after quirks, boosted to 113.28 armor and 66.5 structure for a total of 179.78 health just to destroy a Dragon's CT. Total gain of 33.78 (a little over a ton's worth) from the skill tree on the CT alone.

The mech has a base of 402 total armor and 201 structure, and 48 extra structure from quirks and then 78 extra armor, so 480 armor and 249 structure, giving it 86.4 more armor (566.4 total) and 82.17 more structure (331.17 total) for free. If armor is 32 points per ton then this is a gain of 5.27 tons of free health.

[Wintersdark]

Dakota1000, on 21 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

Its even better in the middle of the tree rather than the ends. Find one of those mechs with big armor quirks such as the Dragon.

You get 18% more armor and 33% more structure. Dragon comes with high defense quirks +16 CT armor and +10 CT structure. 80 armor and 40 structure base. 96 armor and 50 structure after quirks, boosted to 113.28 armor and 66.5 structure for a total of 179.78 health just to destroy a Dragon's CT. Total gain of 33.78 (a little over a ton's worth) from the skill tree on the CT alone.

The mech has a base of 402 total armor and 201 structure, and 48 extra structure from quirks and then 78 extra armor, so 480 armor and 249 structure, giving it 86.4 more armor (566.4 total) and 82.17 more structure (331.17 total) for free. If armor is 32 points per ton then this is a gain of 5.27 tons of free health.

Hah that's freaking fantastic. The Dragon really benefitted from the rescale too. Will have to bust out my old baby again and see how she is today.

[Stonefalcon]

My hunchie 4SP with its 160hp in the centre torso would like to have words with you.

[KodiakGW]

Stonefalcon, on 21 May 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Snip.

SHHHHH! Quick, edit before they see it and nerf it!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Here is the thing the OP is neglecting to think about. Each and every node in the skill tree is an incremental change which by themselves has virtually zero effect on your mech. However when you invest heavily in a tree, it will add up.

If you invest heavily in a tree, you can add 15-20 points of combined armor and structure to each component. That is a pretty significant boost to your ability to survive.

[Wintersdark]

Dakota1000, on 21 May 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

Its even better in the middle of the tree rather than the ends. Find one of those mechs with big armor quirks such as the Dragon.

Holy hell. Busted out my old 4LL Flame, and damn, is it ever tanky. Rolls damage so well, too. Not gonna claim it's a T1 mech now, but it's *THICK* with the upgrades.

[Weeny Machine]

Dakota1000, on 21 May 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

If you believe that the armor tree is worthless (its not) then take a look at what 11.375% of your skill nodes (That's 10.35125 skill nodes, why aren't you using actual numbers people will use?) will get you in other trees.

Really though, defense values may be small numbers and percents, but in game they are the difference between life and death, the difference between being killed in 2 shots or surviving 2 shots and watching the enemy overheat infront of you and killing him before he fires off a third. When you also factor in damage spreading, its not just the few points that the CT gains that matters, but the whole of the upper torso.

I always make sure to max out my survival tree. Every match I survive with a red opened up CT and opened up side torsos is a match I would have died in if I didn't take them.

I am curious: which mech class do you play and what do you give up for it? Sensor Tree?

[Kaeb Odellas]

Viktor Drake, on 21 May 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Here is the thing the OP is neglecting to think about. Each and every node in the skill tree is an incremental change which by themselves has virtually zero effect on your mech. However when you invest heavily in a tree, it will add up.

If you invest heavily in a tree, you can add 15-20 points of combined armor and structure to each component. That is a pretty significant boost to your ability to survive.

This is why the skill tree should be simplified. Each skill requires investment of multiple points for you to even notice a difference. Why offer such granularity when you'll never notice it?