63 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bush Hopper, on 22 May 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I am curious: which mech class do you play and what do you give up for it? Sensor Tree?

I play all classes, I only ever bring operations, armor, and firepower. The only mechs that bring sensor tree upgrades are a couple of LRM mechs I need target decay on to be remotely useful. I try to rely on sensors as little as possible and use my own sight to target and take out enemies, I can reliably tell damaged components and get my shots off and I am good enough at peeking in and out of cover to not need Radar Derp and aware enough that seismic isn't really required.

Sensors are nice and all but not needed. I'd much rather just have a mech that can hammer the enemy and be hammered right back.

This is sorta what it looks like. https://tarogato-mwo...4c-a57dfbefadb1 though I change up the firepower tree depending on the build, the operations and survival always stays like that.

If we were talking RPG classes, my mechs would be fighter classes, no fancy bonuses, just really good at beating stuff with bricks.

[Wintersdark]

Kaeb Odellas, on 22 May 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

This is why the skill tree should be simplified. Each skill requires investment of multiple points for you to even notice a difference. Why offer such granularity when you'll never notice it?

I definitely agree. The stated goal and result are at odds here:

They want more granularity so you can see results quicker, and so that there's more choice, but the granularity results in individual nodes having no appreciable effect and in order to get noticeable effects, you need to invest heavily in a tree as returns per point are greater when you invest heavier.

I'm a proponent of halving the skill nodes and available skill points (and doubling the effects) but you could make an argument that simply having 7 base skills (encompass the effects of the whole trees) and only 4 points would have a functionally identical impact from the current system (except we basically get 3.5 trees as it is, but I'm sure you get my point).

But, we have what we have. They're not gonna redesign it now. People would flip their s**t having to do skill trees again, even if it was simplified.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Wintersdark, on 22 May 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

I definitely agree. The stated goal and result are at odds here:

They want more granularity so you can see results quicker, and so that there's more choice, but the granularity results in individual nodes having no appreciable effect and in order to get noticeable effects, you need to invest heavily in a tree as returns per point are greater when you invest heavier.

I'm a proponent of halving the skill nodes and available skill points (and doubling the effects) but you could make an argument that simply having 7 base skills (encompass the effects of the whole trees) and only 4 points would have a functionally identical impact from the current system (except we basically get 3.5 trees as it is, but I'm sure you get my point).

But, we have what we have. They're not gonna redesign it now. People would flip their s**t having to do skill trees again, even if it was simplified.

And their "quicker results" goal is hamstrung by the awkward skill tree interface. The new skill tree might make it quicker to get XP to buy more skill points due to their low XP cost, but you're not going to want to go into the skill tree interface just to unlock 1 or 2 skill nodes because the process is so involved.

In the old system, it may take a few rounds to accrue enough XP to unlock a skill, especially after finishing basics, but at least that process was simple. Click skills tab, find mech, open mech, unlock skill(s), confirm. A few clicks and you're done.

Nowadays you have to click the skill tab, decide which skill(s) you want to unlock, unlock them, pick whether you want to use GSP or buy skill points, pick what form of XP you want to buy them with, and then apply changes. If you unlock a consumable slot, you also have to go to your loadout to put a consumable there.

Who wants to do that after every round?

[Yellonet]

Spheroid, on 21 May 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Remarkable proof [/sarcasm]

That theorem has actually been proven.

[Mystere]

Wintersdark, on 22 May 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'm a proponent of halving the skill nodes and available skill points ...

So am I. That's the very least they should probably do.

Kaeb Odellas, on 22 May 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

And their "quicker results" goal is hamstrung by the awkward skill tree interface. The new skill tree might make it quicker to get XP to buy more skill points due to their low XP cost, but you're not going to want to go into the skill tree interface just to unlock 1 or 2 skill nodes because the process is so involved.

In the old system, it may take a few rounds to accrue enough XP to unlock a skill, especially after finishing basics, but at least that process was simple. Click skills tab, find mech, open mech, unlock skill(s), confirm. A few clicks and you're done.

Nowadays you have to click the skill tab, decide which skill(s) you want to unlock, unlock them, pick whether you want to use GSP or buy skill points, pick what form of XP you want to buy them with, and then apply changes. If you unlock a consumable slot, you also have to go to your loadout to put a consumable there.

Who wants to do that after every round?

I am so glad I am drowning in all kinds of SP, XP, and c-bills. It makes the skill tree barely tolerable -- when I bother to skill up.

But, I pity the SP/XP/c-bill poor players, though.

[CDLord HHGD]

Spheroid, on 21 May 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Remarkable proof [/sarcasm]

But this was eventually proofed...
https://en.wikipedia...7s_Last_Theorem

[Magnus Santini]

I know a couple players who bought new mechs and reported no trouble levelling them up. But these guys are really good players. Hopefully the XP paycheck PGI added to the academy is going to help beginners.

[Revis Volek]

grendeldog, on 21 May 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

...


Valid point for sure. I just think that the values aren't worth it in the health tree. Structure bonuses are a bit better on a per hex value, but armor seems like a waste of SP to me.

Well its not worth it on every mech thats for sure, if you get Armor Bonus' stock then it starting to look better, same with structure quirks.


But its percentage based, so a light mech only get 1% his CT armor which is measly typically (around 25-35) and get only a few pts where as mediums and higher get a much larger bonus. For a about 16 pts i got a VTR up to 130 CT armor. Thats Atlas levels but it took a significant investment and as I stated the VTR has these quirks already so i am just piling onto what is already there and it adds up much faster.


But the flip side is that many, many, MANY mechs are MUCH, MUCH slower and clunkier then they have ever been. If you find that you dont get the bonus in a light or medium from the armor or structure you like try using those point in the MOBILITY TREE instead. The ability to roll dmg or even take it where you want is lost on a lot of mechs and they need that extra staying power from the those buffs. But lights and mediums can be fast, wiggly and hard as crap to hit which in itself is effectively making speed into armor for all intents and purposes.


But try some stuff out, see if you can even find a middle ground with structure (not armor) and mobility to make the most out of what you can squeeze into the mech.


and to top of this long winded post, i too agree the tree and nodes need adjustment. Even if we shorten the journey through skill forest by having lets say 3 nodes of each? A Light, Medium and then HEAVY investment level would have been plenty of a mech lab mini game for me.

Wintersdark, on 22 May 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

But, we have what we have. They're not gonna redesign it now. People would flip their s**t having to do skill trees again, even if it was simplified.

Canannaada isnt that far away from me....dont tempt me PGI to start egging your houses and cars! lol but please, no more huge resets, my hands hurt.

Edited by Revis Volek, 22 May 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[MW222]

No need for discussion or augment here folks just play a mech with and with out skill points.

I'm gonna go ahead and predict that most if not all of you will not, I say again WILL BE HAPPY.

[Bishop Steiner]

Revis Volek, on 21 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Very few of the skill trees are worth just ONE SP or even a half a dozen SP.


The same could be said for cooldown or heat gen (those values are actually smaller per node) and a lot of the tree. One point wont get you anything. The only tree that ONE SP matters or is worth it in is the extra consumable slot in the AUX/MISC tree and MAYBE the first JJ heat gen one which gives you -6% to yours jj heat if you have a lot of jj's.

Auxiliary is the only one worth a "mandatory" 1 node investment, IMO. More don't hurt, if you have them to spare, or your build/role demands some UAV/Strike Love, (or you really need to maximize an emergency coolshot).

But most of the rest... yeah, if you are not dropping 6-10 pts into them, at least, I say you are better off not touching them at all, in most cases. I'm sure there will be a fringe dweller here or there, but not enough to "disprove the rule".

[Revis Volek]

MW222, on 22 May 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

No need for discussion or augment here folks just play a mech with and with out skill points.

I'm gonna go ahead and predict that most if not all of you will not, I say again WILL BE HAPPY.

lol wut?



Do you even Engrish bro?

[Xetelian]

I use the Survival tree at all but 3 points for all my mechs, the extra structure and armor just sounds too good to pass up.


https://tarogato-mwo...4c-75ee5ea751e5


This is how I have my HBR and ACH and SHC set up. They're laser boats and have ECM.



The difference isn't huge but I definitely feel like I'm getting a boost to my survive-ability.

Edited by Xetelian, 22 May 2017 - 04:21 PM.

[R E S P E K]

Here is a crazy idea: if it is worthless put your points elsewhere

[Wintersdark]

Revis Volek, on 22 May 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

But its percentage based, so a light mech only get 1% his CT armor which is measly typically (around 25-35) and get only a few pts where as mediums and higher get a much larger bonus. For a about 16 pts i got a VTR up to 130 CT armor. Thats Atlas levels but it took a significant investment and as I stated the VTR has these quirks already so i am just piling onto what is already there and it adds up much faster.

Note that the percentage varies by tonnage: lighter Mechs gain a substantially larger percentage than larger Mechs do.

The armor tree is never a bad Choi e, though it may not be an optimal one. For sure, some Mechs gain a lot more from it. My Flame and 4SP feel like assaults in terms of brute damage soaking, but the difference is noticable on my Clam mechs too.... Just not a "mandatory" choice.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 May 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Auxiliary is the only one worth a "mandatory" 1 node investment, IMO. More don't hurt, if you have them to spare, or your build/role demands some UAV/Strike Love, (or you really need to maximize an emergency coolshot).

But most of the rest... yeah, if you are not dropping 6-10 pts into them, at least, I say you are better off not touching them at all, in most cases. I'm sure there will be a fringe dweller here or there, but not enough to "disprove the rule".

I (almost) always take that first point of Aux, and if I can spare it I go to double UAV's on most, as IMHO UAV's are vastly superior to Seismic and radar derp is just an unnecessary crutch. A couple points in AUX beats the heck out of dozens in sensors.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 22 May 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Note that the percentage varies by tonnage: lighter Mechs gain a substantially larger percentage than larger Mechs do.

The armor tree is never a bad Choi e, though it may not be an optimal one. For sure, some Mechs gain a lot more from it. My Flame and 4SP feel like assaults in terms of brute damage soaking, but the difference is noticable on my Clam mechs too.... Just not a "mandatory" choice.



I (almost) always take that first point of Aux, and if I can spare it I go to double UAV's on most, as IMHO UAV's are vastly superior to Seismic and radar derp is just an unnecessary crutch. A couple points in AUX beats the heck out of dozens in sensors.

I only consider radar derp on a very few builds, TBH, mostly for fast movers that might need to wipe a cloud of LRMs off their tail, but even then, it's a "luxury" not a requirement.

[grendeldog]

In nice capital letters to catch everybody's eye since people don't seem to read whole posts:

TO EVERYBODY ELSE: YES THE VALUES OF EACH HEX ARE OBVIOUSLY CUMULATIVE. NO, I'M NOT SAYING THE STRUCTURE TREE IS USELESS. HOWVER, I AM SAYING THAT THE ARMOR HARDENING HEXES ARE UNDERPOWERED AND A WASTE OF YOUR SP.

I'll pick a well-reasoned sounding post to illustrate my point.

Wintersdark, on 21 May 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

On my locust, armor is 2.6% per facing per point, with up to 10 points.

That's a 26% armor gain, which is with 138 points of armor base + 18 quirk = 156 * .26 = 40.56 bonus armor for 10 skill points.

That's a reasonable amount of armor on a 20t mech; it's a full 1.2 tons of armor with Ferro Fibrous armor installed.

Or, on the other end of the scale, how about an Atlas? It's all structure quirks, so it's not gaining more from the quirks.

On a 100t assault, you're gaining 1% armor per point.

614 base armor points means you gain an additional 61.4 points of armor overall! That's an extra 2 tons of armor on your mech.

Neither of these are insignificant. They're not huge numbers per facing, but there's a substantial amount of added survivability, particularly once you consider that you'll add both Armor and Structure, not one or the other. Your basically adding 2-4 tons of extra health to your mech via the Survival Tree.

Okay. Take the AS7-RS which has armor quirks out the arse - 31 points in the CT for example. I just tested what the armor on the CT is when all armor hardening hexes are filled... 45 points. And that took 26 SP.

That's 14 extra points of armor. Less than three IS medium lasers will negate that - let alone a proper meta mech beast-mode build with a huge alpha. You claim 61.4 points of armor - I assume that's counting the side torsi as well. That is one single alpha strike from a meta assault or heavy mech. Whoopdie-doo! You sunk 26 SP for one alpha strike extra of durability. And that's on an Atlas with armor quirks out the arse may I remind you.

Granted, you get the benefits of extra structure and reduced crit chances, plus the dubious value of reduced fall damage. But 26 SP is 28.5% of your SP pool.

Is the ability to take three more IS medium lasers to your CT worth almost a third of your SP? Hell no! You mention 61 some points of armor, but the important point is that value is divided amongst the various components. So 61 sounds like a lot - it's still only a single alpha from a real killer mind you - but on an individual component level you get at most slightly less than three extra hits from an IS ML on the most heavily armored component, that being the CT.

My KGC-0000 does 69.8 damage per alpha. I see your extra 14 points of CT armor and your 26 SP and raise you a cored out, smoking trash heap of a mech.

Anybody see my point here? Or am I talking past everybody?

Edited by grendeldog, 22 May 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[Wintersdark]

grendeldog, on 22 May 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

In nice capital letters to catch everybody's eye since people don't seem to read whole posts:

TO EVERYBODY ELSE: YES THE VALUES OF EACH HEX ARE OBVIOUSLY CUMULATIVE. NO, I'M NOT SAYING THE STRUCTURE TREE IS USELESS. HOWVER, I AM SAYING THAT THE ARMOR HARDENING HEXES ARE UNDERPOWERED AND A WASTE OF YOUR SP.

I'll pick a well-reasoned sounding post to illustrate my point.


Okay. Take the AS7-RS which has armor quirks out the arse - 31 points in the CT for example. I just tested what the armor on the CT is when all armor hardening hexes are filled... 45 points. And that took 26 SP.

That's 14 extra points of armor. Less than three IS medium lasers will negate that - let alone a proper meta mech beast-mode build with a huge alpha. You claim 61.4 points of armor - I assume that's counting the side torsi as well. That is one single alpha strike from a meta assault or heavy mech. Whoopdie-doo! You sunk 26 SP for one alpha strike extra of durability. And that's on an Atlas with armor quirks out the arse may I remind you.

Granted, you get the benefits of extra structure and reduced crit chances, plus the dubious value of reduced fall damage. But 26 SP is 28.5% of your SP pool.

Is the ability to take three more IS medium lasers to your CT worth almost a third of your SP? Hell no! You mention 61 some points of armor, but the important point is that value is divided amongst the various components. So 61 sounds like a lot - it's still only a single alpha from a real killer mind you - but on an individual component level you get at most slightly less than three extra hits from an IS ML on the most heavily armored component, that being the CT.

My KGC-0000 does 69.8 damage per alpha. I see your extra 14 points of CT armor and your 26 SP and raise you a cored out, smoking trash heap of a mech.

Anybody see my point here? Or am I talking past everybody?

What's funny is that I never die with just CT loss; in fact, it's really rare for me to die to a CT loss before losing at least one side torso.

So, extra armor everywhere matters: You're not putting 100% of that 69.8 damage in a CT, unless he's a total potato. I can't think of anything reasonable pushing 70 points of PPFLD. Got SRM's? Lots of that is hitting side torsos. Lasers? Beam duration, bro.

Being able to absorb an average alpha purely in armor alone is huge. That's damage you take before there's a risk of crits and weapon loss/ammo explosions/cooling loss. Even if it's only half an alpha's difference, that's still important.

I make no claims to awesomeness, but I've been involved in a HELL of a lot of fights where surviving one more hit would have been the difference between victory and death. Many, many deaths where I just needed one more shot to kill my opponent.

You say Armor isn't worth it, and use the full SP cost, but at that point your looking at armor+structure. That's a tremendous buff to survivability; moving into two alphas there.

Would you invest into the tree just for armor? No, probably not. You'd not invest into the tree for just Stucture either. But investing in both, given the number of shared nodes, is a no-brainer for many builds. This is true of basically every tree - you kind of need to go all in, or not bother at all, that's just how they're designed.


More directly:

Definitively, the Armor Hardening nodes are not worth less than the Structure nodes. While the Armor percentage is lower, you have twice as much armor as you do structure (before considering quirks), so 1% armor = 2% structure in terms or raw HP gain, but still - as I said earlier - raw armor HP is better than raw structure HP, because of crits.

Edited by Wintersdark, 22 May 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Looking at my quirkfree executioner, at 95t:

120CT armor, 60CT structure.
80/40 ST.

Skill Tree Buffed:

132CT armor, 76CT structure.
88/50 ST

That's 12+16=28 points of added CT health. That's a large survivability difference, it's a 15% HP increase on a mech with no structure/armor quirks. Roughly the same (14%) to the side torsos.

Now, you MUST take some armor to get Structure, so at most you can save 9 SP points if you don't want armor and the gate nodes (fall damage, crit reduction). Amusingly, NOT taking the armor makes the Reinforced Casing nodes worth more in many ways, because you'll be taking crits a bit earlier and thus losing weaponry/taking extra structure damage earlier.

11 points to max out armor? That's a damned good deal for another 8.8% armor for this mech.

[SirSoggyDog]

The other thing to keep in mind is what those point buy in the other trees. Firepower is going to be taken for almost all mechs in all likelihood, and as a result, it's probably worth assuming that most of one's points are going to go into that tree whether you take armor skills or not. But how does survivability stack up to mobility, operations, and the like? I would argue it does so pretty well, particularly for heat efficient mechs or one's that have damage over time weapons.

Edited by SirSoggyDog, 22 May 2017 - 06:06 PM.

[Wintersdark]

SirSoggyDog, on 22 May 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

The other thing to keep in mind is what those point buy in the other trees. Firepower is going to be taken for almost all mechs in all likelihood, and as a result, it's probably worth assuming that most of one's points are going to go into that tree whether you take armor skills or not. But how does survivability stack up to mobility, operations, and the like? I would argue it does so pretty well, particularly for heat efficient mechs or one's that have damage over time weapons.

yeah.

I don't take survivability on everything, for sure: it depends on the build.

For example, bonus dissipation from Cool Running is more useful on a high DHS mech (percentage gain again) and as such for a hot build packing lots of DHS, it's valued higher for me - gets me lots more heat management and on a build that needs it. Likewise, some Mechs have fine natural agility and don't need the Agility tree (MAD IIC, IMHO) whereas others desperately need it (100 tonners).

I certainly don't feel survival is mandatory, but it's a very good tree and Armor Hardening is as much a part of that as skeletal density.

What I'm finding very interesting is the Misc tree. Using consumables, you can replicate the effects of several other trees... But not Armor. On a moderately hot mech, rather than investing in ops I can take two Coolshots. Just a couple points, and I can get heat control when I need it. A pair of UAV's replicates the important parts of the sensor tree. Some 9 points can get you two of each, both boosted with skills. This easily leaves room for some armor