99 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Anyone with common sense should have abandoned this thread by now.

[Karl Streiger]

fighting windmills and racking posts..... this thread is as good as any

[Gyrok]

Insanity09, on 28 May 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

Ok, I apologize to all, but I simply must respond to the foolish pro/con list Gyrok just posted.

I invited debate

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First off, you cannot assign equal value to all the items you listed. Just as an example, 7 slot endo/ff is not equivalent to more damage per SRM. (ooooh, please make me run the numbers on this, I'm sure I can prove the 7 slot FF is actually better)

Making anything unequal defeats the purpose. The sheer volume of pros for the IS, and cons for the clans make the inequality in your eyes moot anyway. The truth is there.

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Second, guess what? Every quirk you gave as an IS Pro, I can find at least one (multiple, actually) examples of Clan mechs that have those quirks too. Clans do get structure, heat, range, armor, etc. quirks. Off the list.
(I will grant that quirks are more common on the IS side, but... there is a reason for that you clearly don't wish to admit. Anyhow...)

Show me a mech as powerful as the BLR-2C that has any positive quirks on the clan side. I am waiting...

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Third, pick one or the other, things cannot be a pro for one side AND a con for the other. Drop deck tonnage, omnimech presence (which doesn't even belong on the pro/con list, btw), durable gauss, cXL vs IS XL, etc. Typically, you just leave the pro for the side that gets it. Cons, off the list.

If it is an advantage for one side, and the other has no counterpart, then it is BOTH a pro and a con for each side. I also tallied things for the IS in the same manner, so this is not one sided.

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Fourth, you cannot list something as both a pro and a con for the clan. ERPPC damage (both IS and Clan do 10 damage, clans just get a chance for bonus splash damage, thus all pro), cXL and cXL ST loss (part and parcel, all pro), etc.. Cons, off the list.

ERPPCs have splash damage, which is a pro because it is better than none. It is also a con because it SHOULD be 15 pp to a single location, like the IS Heavy PPC will likely have. The disparity is real...

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Fifth, IS has better agility. WRONG. Find an IS mech, now find and equal weight Clan mech with the same engine size, compare the numbers. Let's use IS BNC-LM and EXE-D, both 380XL engines, both 95 tons (I didn't cherry pick this, it was just the first direct comparison I ran across). Which has better agility numbers? The EXE-D. So, while it may be true in some cases, it is clearly not in others. Not an IS pro, off the list.

[

Tarogato mostly covered this, but you are outright wrong. The most agile mechs at each tonnage belong to the IS, Period. IS has OUTRIGHT better agility across the board. If you doubt me, look at the numbers.

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Sixth, you cannot list upcoming changes as a pro (or a con, for that matter), because we don't know the overall impact yet. New tech for IS is jam tomorrow, it doesn't mean a thing right now. New tech stuff, off the list.

I did so because IS is getting VASTLY more new tech. Some of that is catching up to the clans, but some of it, like Heavy Gauss, RACs, and myriad PPC options, do not have the clan counterparts present in the tech udpate. Clans have RACs, and HAGs, and our PPCs should be 15pp like IS Heavy PPCs will be.

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Seventh, IS 'full range laser drop off'. If you look carefully at the stats for the lasers you will see that ALL of them, clan and IS alike have a straight line damage drop off graph from the end of their optimal range to their max range. Clans have higher ranges, both optimal and max. So, that's not news? Ah, but the Clan lasers have a higher percentage of their total range as optimal (e.g., cERML opt 405 max 688, 58.8% of its range is optimal, instead of the 50% for IS lasers). That means that all Clan lasers are doing their full damage for a much longer time than IS lasers. Off the list, or change it to clan pro.

Outside of the CERLL, no clan laser has full double effective range for a max range value. Period. Not a single one of them. From SPL/ERSL to CLPL. The worst offender is the CLPL with max effective of ~660, but max overall of ~840-850m. Meanwhile IS LPLs can have a max effective of 440 and get max overall of 880m. With more IS ER lasers incoming, this disparity needs to end. Also, you are clearly uninformed about how clan tech currently works, which likely leads to your false assumptions about tech balance.

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Eight, a number of things you listed simply do not count as pros or cons and/or apply equally to both sides. Hitboxes (humanoid or not, both sides have mechs with lousy and good hitboxes), skill tree item (dispensed with earlier in this thread, tyvm), Artemis is equal for both sides (unless you are trying to double dip because of the whole clan SRM spread starts larger? hey, party foul), all omnimech items (if clans had no b-mechs, I'd allow it, however...), IS 20 ton mech (?), etc. So a bunch of things, off the list.

Can you take advantage of bad hitboxes? Sure you can. Clan mechs are easier to disable because most of them have STs the size of a barn door...and after you take that off, the mech is crippled and mostly useless to use what little firepower it has remaining.

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Once the list is pared down, it becomes much more reasonable, number wise. There is still the major problem with not all things being of equal value. I also love that you are completely in denial about the reason many of these things were implemented, i.e. that there was/is an imbalance between the sides, and one needed a boost, but we'll roll past that.
Is it time for hearty Russian laughter?
So, nice smokescreen attempt, but no cigar. (ooh, lovely working mixed metaphor there)

Is that what you tell yourself to sleep better at night, or are you truly that uninformed?

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

Does it matter when you've killed two waves of 'Mechs with your first drop? No, it doesn't.

I don't disagree that the tonnage disparity is a bit off, but IMHO the bigger issue is that you need to take an 85 tonner to counter 75 and 70 tonners, and it's been that way since June 2014.

WHMs seem to counter 70-75 tonners just fine...BLRs totally eclipse them, and you truly need a MAD-IIC to counter that, but one side can bring two of that class of mech, the other cannot.

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It's not that simple. 3x cERLL is similar damage and heat to 4x isERLL, It's 8 tons and 4 slots less. You need to implement a stupidly high ghost-heat cap for firing 4x cERLL together to stop people from just firing 4x cERLL together through the ghost. I already fire 3x or 4x cERLL through the ghost, depending on my 'Mech weight. Since it's a poke match, the rate of fire isn't that large of a concern unless they push up. If they push up, they aren't running ERLL so that problem doesn't exist.

Then IS needs to not be able to fire 3 large class lasers at once, because 5-6 IS ERLL out trade 4 CERLLs all day, every day. That, or up the damage on the CERLL to make it an equal trade with IS ERLLs @ 2 for 3.

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I don't think so. The MAD is actually dead. It is not even remotely comparable to might as well be dead because I still have to focus that TBR for a few more seconds to make it actually dead and, if I don't, then he still has guns left to threaten with. Yeah, heat penalty, but, also, half the firepower. I don't feel particularly penalized in the heat department with my Clan 'Mechs when the ST goes...in fact I don't even notice it because half my heat generation has also disappeared. I only really feel the speed penalty but...I'm now going nominal IS heavy speed. Seems like a small price to pay for being able to survive that and still pack superior cooling and firepower.

It does, also, take substantially more damage to that ST to make it dead. Where as, if you have lost a ST, more times than not you are already screwed because you are taking lots of fire anyway. I can understand one off situations in trading scenarios, but in this meta, that is the exception, not the rule.

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Well, the MAD doesn't really have a low cap, except the BH2. The lack of a fast energy boat for the MAD is felt, but engine caps are not really where I was going with this. The bottom line here is that I have to spend more of my nodes to make up a greater amount of deficits than I do with the TBR. With the TBR, I need to make up for that agility, but I've already got the upper hand everywhere else.

It should be able to bring as big an engine as a TW (375), all mechs at a given tonnage should have the same engine cap as the fastest mech for that class.

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The MAD does ballistics better...only when it sacrifices the speed. And now you begin to see the problem. There is a very good reason why the MAD gets superior agility, and it's because that's the only way you can feasibly drop the engine to get it into a maybe competitive position...but then the WHM still does it better at 5 tons less because it can bring an XL where the MAD cannot. Hell, it even does it better on a STD.

Since agility is now decoupled from engine rating, why should the 2 not be equal? Engine rating is only for speed now...so there is no reason they could not be equally as agile. I could understand better accel/decel for a mech like the MAD, but base agility should not be horrendous on the TW, and ballerina-esque on the MAD.

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Notice that the WHM has agility that is barely any better than the TBR. IMHO, that little bit it does have is there as XL protection, otherwise it'd be just as sluggish.

The WHM is also substantially better than any other 70 ton mech in the game, by a wide margin as well. I can understand that. However, there are lots of mechs with loads of agility that do not need to be that agile to be good.

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5x ERLL on anything is going to look pretty decent, because at 740 meters most people can't really shoot back. Stick it in context of well-optimized and practiced opposition, though, and it loses to cERLL+Gauss and cERPPCs because it has shorter range and because 81 kph is not actually that fast and zeroing in on an ST gets it killed quick. The GHR-5P was good at ERLL specifically because it had unmatched short duration and extra range; the MAD has no such luxuries. It has what everybody else can have.

He runs XL340, so it is closer to 85 kph. In FW, the -15% duration on already shorter burning lasers makes a tremendous difference.

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Personally, I run a large XL engine Marauder myself, for brawling, and do amazing things with it. That's more because the enemy are potatoes, though, than because the 'Mech is properly good. Just like your WHM-6D...it really doesn't have impressive quirks, it's all potatoes who don't know how to follow through with laser burns.

There is truth to that...though the MAD is somehow naturally quite tanky, I think it is the relatively low profile, where the MAD-IIC feels much, much larger. The MAD-IIC is a fair trade off for the damage potential, but the TW does not get the same luxury with bad hitboxes AND poor agility. The torso twist has suffered too much, and the turning radius is terrible now. You need 6 states to turn the TW around compared to something like the MAD with a decent engine.

[Tarogato]

Hey Gyrok, you interested in some 1v1s? I just got a stash of premium and my unit mates aren't always up for them.

[Gyrok]

Tarogato, on 29 May 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

Hey Gyrok, you interested in some 1v1s? I just got a stash of premium and my unit mates aren't always up for them.

You know...I just might be

[Scyther]

I can't tell sometimes if Gyrok is simply trolling or just so desperate to hang onto his Clan tech advantage that he is willing to deliver complete BS with a straight face.

It's hard to take seriously someone who can make this comment and pretend it is meaningful: "The worst offender is the CLPL with max effective of ~660, but max overall of ~840-850m. Meanwhile IS LPLs can have a max effective of 440 and get max overall of 880m"

A simple visual representation of the actual base ranges of IS LPL and Clan LPL:

IS LPL:
===============______________|730

===============+++++++++__________|840
^Clan LPL^:

= Both LPL are at full effective
_ Both LPL are at reduced damage
+ Clan LPL is still at full damage, well beyond IS LPL full damage range
Each symbol represents 25m range

Notice how the Clan LPL still does full damage for 64% more range than IS. Notice how Clan LPL does full damage almost out to IS LPL max range. Notice how Clan LPL is still hitting targets 110m further away than IS LPL. Notice how this doesn't take Clan TCs into account. Notice how the Clan LPL does more base damage over this entire range, at a ton less weight.

And yet somehow, Gyrok is able to not notice any of this. Perhaps he is blinded by panic at the thought that somewhere out there, there is an IS Mech that can shoot him back on an almost equal footing. A scary thought, to be sure.

Of course, Gyrok will make an issue of the longer burn time on the Clan LPL, and the higher heat. And these are in fact issues, although TBH they are issues I don't have much problem with in my Clan mechs. I would gladly trade my IS LPLs in for these 'problems' any day of the week. (Except that isn't really a good solution, in my opinion)

(Note: the above comparison of more damage at near-50% longer range for generally less weight can be made for virtually all Clan energy weapons, not just Clan LPL)

Edited by MadBadger, 29 May 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 29 May 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

ERPPCs have splash damage, which is a pro because it is better than none. It is also a con because it SHOULD be 15 pp to a single location, like the IS Heavy PPC will likely have. The disparity is real...


...
Is that what you tell yourself to sleep better at night, or are you truly that uninformed?

Same to you if you really think the 6 ton 2crit CERPPC should have 15dmg and otherwise the same stats. If you really believe that- you should take your own proposal. Sleep well - but you clearly need to stop making any balance topics. Some fools might believe you

You know when you know that you can't face to face with a Lpl Battlemaster - the answer is not to try.
Ever used a gargle full range skills - tc7 and 6 tiny ERM - you are mobile you are fast and can take a hell of a beating - enough to slip in the huge blind spots of a battkemasters torso twist range....
Btw FP has nothing to do with balance - pretty sure that 12 guys in 12 dual ERL Urban Mechs can kill most enemys
FP is Team coordination and should be forbidden for teams smaller 4

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 May 2017 - 08:52 PM.

[Insanity09]

I got the information I used straight out of the game itself, looking at the numbers and graphs provided by PGI. Where are you getting yours?

You cannot have unequal pros and cons? What illogic is that? If I were making a list of assets in preparation for a divorce, you can guarantee that if I tried to pass off a Ferrari as equal to a Honda Accord the opposing lawyer would eat me for lunch. Some things matter more than others, some things have more impact. That's what we call reality. Heck, that's what you are arguing, in a way, in talking about quirks, which we'll get to. You want it both ways in your favor. No.

So, some quick math about less spacious FF vs. more damaging SRMs.
The great majority of IS mechs can take FF OR Endo, but not both, except in rare cases (mostly lights), because it eats up too much space.
The sum total slots of both upgrades for a clan mech is equivalent to either on the IS side.
Even on a Locust, that 20 tonner so awesome that the clan not having one is a serious detriment, FF is worth .5 tons.
.5 tons buys you a clan ER small laser, one shot of which does 5 points of damage (equivalent to the damage from 33.3 extra bonus IS SRM missiles). Last I checked, lasers didn't need ammo, so you can shoot it more than once, and, ahem, at better range than the SRM's (360m max, y'all, vs 270m for the SRMs)
Oh, but you don't have a spare energy hard point? No worries, since we were all concerned about the inferior SRM's, you must have those, right? And since you spent so few spaces on your FF, I'm sure you can fit another slot for an extra half ton of SRM ammo. With inferior clan SRM missiles, that's 50 x 2, or 100 extra damage, which works out to the extra damage on 666.67 IS SRM missiles.
Yeah, I'll take the easier to slot FF, thanks.

Best agility in class? Yeah, I do doubt you, and with good reason.
Well, if we're going by the 4 classes, I'd suggest you look at the chart your fellow clan-fan posted. Pay close attention to the assaults at the far right. There's this chassis called the Gargoyle.... And if the chart isn't good enough, I suggest you check the values in-game, they say the same thing.
And if you want to look at best agility by each weight, then Ice Ferret, Linebacker, Summoner, Gargoyle, and Executioner are clear winners for their weights.
Even if you go by my standard of same engine rating and tonnage, the clan still has clear winners on their side (viper and executioner, iirc).
No matter how you slice it, agility is NOT the sole province of IS, though it is weighted that way. (there are also quite a few ties, btw)

I never said the Clan quirks were as large as IS. (They don't need to be, particularly for range or heat gen, but anyhow...)
What I said, and I stand by it, was that all the categories of quirks you ascribed solely as IS pros were also visible on clan mechs. ALL OF THEM.
Structure, check. Heat gen, check. Range, check.
How about ones you didn't mention? Accel/decel? Some clan mechs still have 'em. Armor, missile/lBX spread, cooldown, weapon velocity, torso speed, yes to all of them and more. (I wonder if those quirk values are being calculated into the agility values shown...hmmm)
Since you mentioned the BLR-2C... The ONLY quirks it currently has (again, looking at the in-game store) are structure quirks. It sure is tanky, but can still lose its internals before going down. Sticking to the assault class, HGN-IIC has structure quirks to all the same locations as the BLR (neither mech gets head structure, does anything?). Based on your earlier comments, clearly the actual value of those quirks doesn't matter, just the fact that they are there, right?
Btw, the WHK's also have structure quirks (some on par with the BLR) and a whole host of other quirks as well.
How about the negative quirks you brought up? I found 3 DWF's with -2 HD armor. Given the massive rate of head shots, that must be a huge deal, right? I also found 2 TBRs that had negative quirks, two variants that suffer from a -5 torso yaw (one also has -10% yaw speed, oh the humanity!). That's it. Across all the clan mechs and variants, only 5 have any negative quirks at all. In your book, those 5 variants (not even all the variants of those chassis) and those quirks bring down the entire clan side. Interesting.

[Gyrok]

Insanity09, on 29 May 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

You cannot have unequal pros and cons? What illogic is that? If I were making a list of assets in preparation for a divorce, you can guarantee that if I tried to pass off a Ferrari as equal to a Honda Accord the opposing lawyer would eat me for lunch.

Comparing a divorce proceeding to a PGI game is only legitimate if you intend to divorce the game.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gyrok, on 30 May 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

Comparing a divorce proceeding to a PGI game is only legitimate if you intend to divorce the game.

"Using analogies is only appropriate if literally apply the analogy to the topic of discussion."

You do not know what analogies are for. They are for illustrative purposes, not literal execution.

Face it: As long as Clan Tech is lighter, smaller, and has longer range, then the IS needs quirks. Until the base tech is balanced, the IS will rely on quirks.

Do you want fewer quirks? Then we need to nerf clantech.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 May 2017 - 06:23 PM.

[Gyrok]

Prosperity Park, on 30 May 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

"Using analogies is only appropriate if literally apply the analogy to the topic of discussion."

You do not know what analogies are for. They are for illustrative purposes, not literal execution.

Face it: As long as Clan Tech is lighter, smaller, and has longer range, then the IS needs quirks. Until the base tech is balanced, the IS will rely on quirks.

Do you want fewer quirks? Then we need to nerf clantech.

Clan tech is already nerfed...the mechs drive like they wear concrete shoes with full mobility tree while IS mechs dance around like ballerinas with no mobility tree.

Also, shorter burn times, more damage per SRM, and much more durable Gauss is very OP right now. People like to point to one thing on clans and say "this will always make them OP"...but when the stack of small things for the IS is as strong as it is right now...then people should consider that 50 +1s are a lot more cumulatively than a single +20. The +20 looks OP compared to a single +1, but lots of +1s are cumulatively much more than that single thing.

[Novakaine]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 May 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

The IS has larger bonuses in laser duration and cool-down to the tune of 5% each. Everything else is exactly the same.

Let's not exaggerate things, now.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 30 May 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

Clan tech is already nerfed...the mechs drive like they wear concrete shoes with full mobility tree while IS mechs dance around like ballerinas with no mobility tree.

Since skill tree i run almost Clan Mechs only - of course not the few overperformers - concrete shoes?
If this is true i don't even want to know how hyper agile the Nova was before
Speaking off nerfs
I did grew me a pair and tried my Heavy Metal that i didn't have touched for years.
With full range skills for my large Lasers i rofled - i get 5
~50m more range for 15t of lasers compared with Nova and 6ERM and TC3
Not to mention the 6t jets to climb 3m ... So of course i dropped the Jets and put LPL on it. It became insanity OP -NOT
Got even less range ...

[Mortalcoil]

Stop feeding the trolls. No sense in arguing with people who are clearly trolling. At least I hope Gyrok is trolling. If he isn't he is so far up his own *** they'll have to bring canaries to get his head out.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 30 May 2017 - 09:09 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gyrok, on 30 May 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

Clan tech is already nerfed...the mechs drive like they wear concrete shoes with full mobility tree while IS mechs dance around like ballerinas with no mobility tree.

Also, shorter burn times, more damage per SRM, and much more durable Gauss is very OP right now. People like to point to one thing on clans and say "this will always make them OP"...but when the stack of small things for the IS is as strong as it is right now...then people should consider that 50 +1s are a lot more cumulatively than a single +20. The +20 looks OP compared to a single +1, but lots of +1s are cumulatively much more than that single thing.

Okay. That's it. I am calling you out now.

HEAR THAT EVERYONE? GYROK IS BEING CALLED OUT.

OKay Gyrok. Tell me this:

What would happen if PGI pulled all the Inner Sphere Quirks? What would happen?

Would the game A.) Become more balanced, or B.) Become less balanced.

Choose. Let's see if you really support what you say, that Clan TECH is actually balanced with IS TECH.
Come one. A Hunchback 4G or 4P against the Clan IIC varieties, with no quirks. Balanced?

Choose a Clan Marauder IIC, or a Battlemaster with NO QUIRKS. Balanced? Is the TECH balanced?

Orion vs Orion IIC? Trebuchet with No Quirks against a Huntsman? How about a Kodiak vs a Quirkless Atlas. Are the MECHS balanced? Or a Direwolf against a quirkless King Crab?

Totally balanced?

Oxide with no quirks vs the IIC variety? Awesomes balanced agiast Night Gyrs with no quirks? Hey, the Awesome weighs 5 tons more, it without quirks should be better than a Night Gyr, right?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 May 2017 - 09:47 PM.

[Novakaine]

Hey Gyrok I'm hearing crickets again.

[Gyrok]

Prosperity Park, on 30 May 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Okay. That's it. I am calling you out now.

HEAR THAT EVERYONE? GYROK IS BEING CALLED OUT.

OKay Gyrok. Tell me this:

What would happen if PGI pulled all the Inner Sphere Quirks? What would happen?

Would the game A.) Become more balanced, or B.) Become less balanced.

Choose. Let's see if you really support what you say, that Clan TECH is actually balanced with IS TECH.
Come one. A Hunchback 4G or 4P against the Clan IIC varieties, with no quirks. Balanced?

Choose a Clan Marauder IIC, or a Battlemaster with NO QUIRKS. Balanced? Is the TECH balanced?

Orion vs Orion IIC? Trebuchet with No Quirks against a Huntsman? How about a Kodiak vs a Quirkless Atlas. Are the MECHS balanced? Or a Direwolf against a quirkless King Crab?

Totally balanced?

Oxide with no quirks vs the IIC variety? Awesomes balanced agiast Night Gyrs with no quirks? Hey, the Awesome weighs 5 tons more, it without quirks should be better than a Night Gyr, right?

Actually...the oxide with no quirks against the IIC variety is superior.

The BLR-2Cheese is about to become our Assault metamech overlord again after the MAD-IIC nerfs.

Let us see what else shall we?

GRF-3M is outright superior brawler to any clan medium mech without any quirks.

MAL is outright better dakka boat without quirks.

TW is so nerfed right now, it would probably lose to a ON1-K in a brawl...without quirks on the ON1.

Laser vomit? WHM-6D > any clan chassis @ <500m

Now, YOUR Hyperbole is a bit grandiose, because there are still lots of bad IS mechs...but the best IS mechs are generally better than the best clan mechs, without quirks. The Skill tree already gives them bigger bonuses...and their base agility is already higher.

Novakaine, on 31 May 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

Hey Gyrok I'm hearing crickets again.

Check behind your desk...I bet you find your crickets.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 24 May 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Seeing that the IS has much larger skill tree bonuses across the board, are the inherent quirks really necessary anymore?

Good god dude.

Just... wow.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 31 May 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Good god dude.

Just... wow.

Drive a BLR-2C to start with...just go run it with no mobility tree.

Then, get in a TW, a mech 10 tons lighter, and compare the mobility for me.