425 replies to this topic

[SmokedJag]

metallio, on 31 May 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Guilds come, guilds go.

Units come, units go.

Why didn't we get more units coming to FW to replace the ones that left? Because of everything discussed above.

Individual "gravity" isn't any different here than it is in the rest of the world and there's a huge gaming presence online, including massive numbers of people who make a game their second job, putting more into it than their actual employment and families.

Mechwarrior is practically a legendary IP. We don't need to fix people, they'll play if the game gives them any reason to care.

FW doesn't. The reason is that units are made up of individuals, who all start as solos...pugs. You sh!t on them ever day and make FW something they won't even pretend to get involved in as if they should care because you have an established presence there and they should be honored to bask in it. They, and everyone with a hint of self, already told you to F off by not playing in your sand box.

You can give them a reason to come back and they'll form relationships, and then units, in your FW corner of the internet. Then you'll get to play with them. Those people you think could use fixin' and look down on. Unless you think there's just some group of hard shootin' gamers out there who need talked into seein' how things run 'round heah 'cuz they'll see how cool it is to be a part of what you've got goin' and stick around, making it awesome.

Those people don't exist. They're the pugs and solos you keep sh!tting on, after they've gotten to love playing the game and garnered some experience.

Give them a reason to show or keep eating the loneliness around these parts, because it's all you're gonna get.

Solo Q would bring them in to take a look and give them a reason to play. Look how easy it is to get a scouting mission. That's practically "FW solo Q" lite. People play it all the time, and it lets those dirty PuG players do something to support FW.

Honestly, with the attitude around here that 90%+ of the MWO community is lazy, stupid, worthless, and whatever else you mouthbreathers want to call them because they don't play your game I'm not certain there's ever going to be a way to bring the population back, but solo Q would actually give it a shot.

Not likely to happen, nor is anything else that makes sense, but what the he11 I'll keep saying it. I like the game and the IP and I'd rather see it rise than fall.

Seriously, the FW "community" seems to be its own biggest problem. Both in this mindset wherein it would somehow get better if no one new played it and in the actual play where units that wind up matched against a mixed or PUG team make no effort whatsoever to have it be entertaining. Getting hitscan blasted by 4xmetaBattlemaster for sticking your head out doesn't compel me to join a unit or get better. Getting the dropzone rushed and two 'Mechs killed in two minutes and seeing others killed before they hit the ground doesn't compel me to join a unit or get better. That stuff compels me to not bother playing the mode until the team in question goes the F away. It's not entertaining. It's not fun. People don't want to play with it.

Ironically BT and other in-person gaming had this "solution" to munchkin powergamers a long time ago. People stopped playing with them, SHOCK.

[Pat Kell]

SmokedJag, on 31 May 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

Seriously, the FW "community" seems to be its own biggest problem. Both in this mindset wherein it would somehow get better if no one new played it and in the actual play where units that wind up matched against a mixed or PUG team make no effort whatsoever to have it be entertaining. Getting hitscan blasted by 4xmetaBattlemaster for sticking your head out doesn't compel me to join a unit or get better. Getting the dropzone rushed and two 'Mechs killed in two minutes and seeing others killed before they hit the ground doesn't compel me to join a unit or get better. That stuff compels me to not bother playing the mode until the team in question goes the F away. It's not entertaining. It's not fun. People don't want to play with it.

Ironically BT and other in-person gaming had this "solution" to munchkin powergamers a long time ago. People stopped playing with them, SHOCK.

And therein lies the population problem. It's not that some random good team has beat the snot out of you, it's that you have chosen not to get back up.....

[Insanity09]

While I understand the purist's response that FW is supposed to be about organized groups/factions duking it out, is there some reason that, especially under the current single bucket system, a solo queue would not be functional in FW?

I'm not asking whether it would dilute the population further, and not be viable for that reason.

I AM asking why it wouldn't work in this virtual world? I don't see a valid reason it wouldn't.
I DO see that it has a chance to bring more overall population into FW.

On the surface, not knowing how the program was put together, it seems like a simple, non-coding intensive effort for PGI. There is already a group queue and solo queue methodology, all that needs be done is applying it to FW as well.

Afaik, the group queue in quick play has less population than the solo queue, I would expect a similar result if the setup were the same in FW, not unreasonable, yes?

Released at a time when there was a FW oriented event going on would draw people in from the QP solo queues, so the population would be boosted least temporarily.
It is to be hoped that some of the people brought in by such an event would have enough interest in FW to stick around, at least from time to time (or even frequently), and that some of those who stuck might add to the group FW queue (the current queue).

As someone who is part of a small unit that mostly lives in another time zone from my own, I'd like to do more FW. Sadly, when I try to join FW as a solo, being utterly crushed time after time is the typical result. Perhaps FW hard-liners are more masochistic than I am, but I find being repeatedly roflstomped rather draining. I move back to the QP queue as a result. I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that way.
It seems to me that a solo FW queue would be a way for me to get in more FW play, but with less danger of being so aggressively squashed over and over. That gets my approval.

There are other ways that PGI might improve FW, but until the population is there to warrant it, I don't see the effort being justifiable. (bit of a chicken and egg problem)

[Humpday]

Eh tier is probably *not* a good idea.

I made it to Tier1 in 4 months(started Feb of this year), with 3766 games. I t hink 2 seasons I was in the top 50 for most games played...so thats rather excessive.

I think most people will probably do, what...maybe 8 games a day before getting bored, have other oblications(family, work, pets).

Do it by tier and you'll alienate too many people. I don't think there are a lot of T1/2s. On the forums yes, but I imagine T1/2s are a minority crew that have been around for a long time...or obsessive like me.

Now if FP had its own Unique tier system, that would work. Just don't use the overall Tier as your gauge as many people don't have time for that.

Edited by Humpday, 31 May 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Humpday]

Also, why don't they put the Map with the red dirt and buildings in QP? That map is friggin cool!

[Grus]

Leggin Ho, on 27 May 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Your requirement for them to be Tier 2 is funny as I don't play QP very often so I would not be allowed in since I'm still "only" Tier 3 as far as PGI is concerned....

this ^^ I use qp for feeling out a build for a mech under live fire conditions.

[Grus]

Aside from just, No, EVIL wouldn't be very happy that you took away their ability to farm potatos...

[Cato Zilks]

Insanity09, on 31 May 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

As someone who is part of a small unit that mostly lives in another time zone from my own, I'd like to do more FW. Sadly, when I try to join FW as a solo, being utterly crushed time after time is the typical result. Perhaps FW hard-liners are more masochistic than I am, but I find being repeatedly roflstomped rather draining. I move back to the QP queue as a result. I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that way.
It seems to me that a solo FW queue would be a way for me to get in more FW play, but with less danger of being so aggressively squashed over and over. That gets my approval.

There are other ways that PGI might improve FW, but until the population is there to warrant it, I don't see the effort being justifiable. (bit of a chicken and egg problem)

Separating the cues will drive more people to the solo ques because they will go faster and will most likely have a higher population. That cue will grab some portion of the population that, like you, avoids FP because stomps in addition to frequent FP players that are not as good, solo players, and trolls that want the easy stomp. This increases the wait time in the group cue, leading all those good teams to 1) quit or 2) join the solo cue and get back to stomping. The real loss is team play and community building and most of those challenge adverse players added to FW will just leave (again) as soon as the group players start solo dropping.

This is why PGI did the tag/no tag division. It did not work.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 31 May 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Bottom Line:

There is a certain percentage of players in FW that are so new, they cannot carry their own weight in PUG drops. This lack of ability effects both sides....the team they end up on cannot carry them and the team they're against is getting tired of harvesting them.

Although PGI first advertised FW (then it was called Community Warfare) as "end game content," due to lack of overall population, they have since altered that philosophy and made it open to everyone in the hopes there will be enough people playing it to make it valid.

Due to this lack of overall population, PGI has been resistant to:

- Update their tutorial with anything having to do with Faction Warfare
- Make any form of "minimum requirement" prior to dropping into a Faction match, including demonstrating the basics such as moving forward and not shooting teammates.
- Utilizing some kind of matchmaking system that separates the inexperienced from the experienced in any way, shape or form.

Until any of that happens, it will be business as usual.

[Vagosei]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

'fixing' FW by making it more like QP isn't fixing FW. It's getting rid of it.

The real question is 'how do you get the units BACK into FW?'

That's the question that needs an answer.

As I've seen from playing with many units across the boards due to having to pug a lot. What i've seen many units mistakes is the officers need to be changed out for fresh ideas and things. Its kinda like politics. Our current congress need term limits..as an example. Same for officers...Why do you ask. Fresh input and a positive input in the game..Its really easy to get in someones cockpit and be critical of someone else and that trend just stays and they just HAVE THE POWER..So remove the power and let the others have fresh minds and open minds in their units. We've all seen many units break apart due to a few officers corrupt and destroy and or break up the whole unit. So FIX it...Get some new Ideas out there among your units. IF an officer is alway critical of everything. REPLACE HIM. There are many and many misplaced tier 1 peeps out there who have to just try to play with another unit and try to have fun with them. Some are misplaced due to units no longer wanting to play or their work schedule doesn't work out for them anymore. The minute you forget that this is a game and no longer have fun working and playing together as a team YOU FAIL.

[Blackgodzilla]

Grus, on 31 May 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Aside from just, No, EVIL wouldn't be very happy that you took away their ability to farm potatos...

So MJ12 are potatoes?

[Natural Predator]

Grus, on 31 May 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Aside from just, No, EVIL wouldn't be very happy that you took away their ability to farm potatos...

Show me on this potato where evil hurt your feelings.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

'fixing' FW by making it more like QP isn't fixing FW. It's getting rid of it.

The real question is 'how do you get the units BACK into FW?'

That's the question that needs an answer.

Not just units, but more people on a regular basis.

While the format of the game only allows for 12 v 12, only considers the end goal to be capture the planet and we have arena style maps with single objectives and time limits to achieve them.... it simply doesn't allow the flexibility for everyone from solo to group, cadet to veteran to enjoy the mode.

Any little tweaks of the mode as it currently is does not fix any of these ongoing, long term problems:

• Wait times
  
• Match making
  
• Spawn camping
  
• Depth to the mode
  
• Depth to the factions

If we want to encourage new/newer players to try out the mode we need some of these restrictions removed and allow a more open style of game.

We need to allow the mode to have objectives that will cater for smaller numbers.

We also need the mode to have objectives that will cater for the bigger groups.

We can do this in a single scenario if we adapt and combine some of the existing features from Invasion, Scouting, Quick Play and Private lobbies. It's all there. We just need to bring it together.

We can also have the mode allow for growth in a scenario. That is. It might start with a few solo players scouting and skirmishing against each other, but their actions could have the effect of building up intel and resources in that scenario which will encourage more players to join and let it scale up naturally to a full blown invasion.

Those early players should then have the option to retreat out of that scenario as larger groups become involved so there is no internal conflict between players because they are playing the game at a different level with different objectives. These early solo players can also feel like they contributed something to the overall strategy and effort of their faction because they can prepare the scenario for those groups.

The big groups on the other hand can still get that bigger picture, the tighter team work and the BIG objectives and challenges that they want from the mode without feeling like they will be hindered by some solo players doing their thing. We can do this and have both sides of the MWO gaming population enjoy the mode and even co-exist within a single scenario if we change it to a more open mode and give players the freedom to chose:

• When they want to drop into battle,
  
• Where they want to drop into battle.
  
• How long they want to stay in that battle.
  
• And how they can withdraw from that battle.

Yes we might still get players running into a more coordinated and better equipped/skilled force, but we can allow those players to chose to withdraw if they are horribly outmatched.

Faction play should not only be about the invasion of a planet.

We should let the mode be about some skirmishes on the border, some pre-emptive scouting, some raiding and other little missions that we ourselves can chose to do as well as allowing for full blown planetary conquest.

It doesn't stop us having our events.
It doesn't stop a faction getting together and making a serious push for territory.

it does give us options.
It does let us play the game
It does allow everyone to have a go and at the level they want to participate
It will create activity right around the galaxy.
It will let us do more with the mode that we will be able to under the current system.

Pretty sure I've said this in a hundred different spots, but after trying to go back and forth over the current structure and look at how it's setup, what we can do to resolve these long term issues and how we can build in more depth and options.... we just can't under the current format. It's too restrictive.
We need to move to an open system if we want Faction Play to get out of this predicament.

[RNGesus the LRMessiah]

@Scout Derek

So you wanna restrict end game content in a Free to Play game to WHO?

YOU! cos yer 1337!
Yeah... cos you rofl stomp randomized newbros
in ready-made compositions for organized premades with your E-buddies
... and... well... cos reasons.

... and newbros are just terribads who should go back to Hawken!1!

Wait.
What?
You were NOT EVER a new player?
You were born with your joystick in your dominant hand?
*nods with the inferred wisdom of the sages*

Well bless your self-absorbed, testosterone-fueled, necrotic, hardened, blackened, elitist heart!

Aren't you special...

Oh... my bad. I misspoke... here's your mason jar of salty tears. Drink them up, you sons a'...
May your KDR drown in the inevitability of your own failures as good sportsmen
and the time honoured code of gentlemanly combat

As you were... go about your business... nothing to see here...
ignore the veteran player with the 100T epeen...
or the 20T epeen... so much peen...

Edited by RNGesus the LRMessiah, 31 May 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[Scyther]

PGI made a decision long ago that FP would be 'hard mode' and 'learn to team or die', thus, no MM.

The average combat-sim player simply does not play that way. Average player goes into FP to see what it's like, gets slaughtered, gets yelled at for being a potato/nub, maybe tries again later. Gets similar experience. Rarely if ever tries FP again.

Lack of MM (even simple segregation into 2 queues) leads to low population. Low population is now used as reason 'FP can't have MM, population is too low'. The people who use FP to farm easy wins with their unit lobby to keep their win farms.

FP dies, everyone blames someone else.

Edited by MadBadger, 01 June 2017 - 04:48 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

MadBadger, on 01 June 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Lack of MM (even simple segregation into 2 queues) leads to low population. Low population is now used as reason 'FP can't have MM, population is too low'. The people who use FP to farm easy wins with their unit lobby to keep their win farms.

FP dies, everyone blames someone else.

You broke down the catch 22 issue nicely and simply, but it also means that the perfect time to test out a matchmaker's effectiveness would be during a large FP event to and let it run for an extra week t see if people stick around longer.
It's pretty much a no risk way to test it out as people clearly don't stick around post FP event anyways.

[Scyther]

Agreed, I mentioned in another thread that PGI should introduce a very simply MM: tier 4-5 in this queue, tier 1-2 in this one, tier 3's can be used to fill either queue. Groups/tags/etc can be ignored if you put the vets with the vets and the noobs with the noobs.

Then run a week-long FP event every 3rd week for about 4 months. (So no event exhaustion, but a nice stream of events.)

PGI (and the win farmers) spent years killing this mode. They won't bring it back overnight. But if they don't get out of the 'team hardmode' mindset they may as well just stop development on FP and FP balance right now and put the resources to something more useful.

[PFC Carsten]

Pat Kell, on 31 May 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

And therein lies the population problem. It's not that some random good team has beat the snot out of you, it's that you have chosen not to get back up.....

Albeit virtual, the very real void and empty halls of Faction Play are prove that you are factually right but failed to draw the correct conclusion, thus becoming a part of the problem instead of the solution.

[Grus]

Blackgodzilla, on 31 May 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

So MJ12 are potatoes?

well they arnt HHoD.

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 31 May 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

Show me on this potato where evil hurt your feelings.

i didnt know Carl Vickers liked to be wrote on...

[B0oN]

Split them cues ...
People like me, with no unit but 5 years of ingame experience WILL have a whale of a time .
The others ?
Maybe not so ^^
Especially when the others play learning resilients once again

*Meditating on preparations to use all the pugshields"