425 replies to this topic

[Marquis De Lafayette]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

as the only guy in this arguement helping run a unit dedicated to fw, and also biweekly operates training for new players and actively recruits old AND NEW alike, i think i know i bit more about what the damn horse is gonna drink.

Nat...you know I have never had a problem with you and am always glad to see you in-game. I wish we could have a functioning solo-queue as it would likely funnel people into units eventually. But as a player who is heavily involved in my unit (which is also active and dedicated to FW), I don't see this as feasible.

I was there in the solo-queue, when population was much higher. After a couple of days we couldn't get a defense lobby (even with All the solo's on our side bucketed together). It was endless searching.

Let me ask you (as I recall from my FRR days you got involved in FW after I did)....did you do the solo queue in Phase 3??? If you didn't you really don't know.....the idea was always "feasible" it just was tried and didn't take. There was desire, but not enough consistent desire to make matches in a timely fashion. It wasn't paradise....it was searching purgatory.

Would it be different now? I doubt it as population is less. I was one the those guys who formed a one-man (reluctantly) so as to play. A lot of the units complained about people like me as they had unit v unit fights before the solo queue went defunct as we ruined things by giving them pug fights.

I think a lot of units wouldn't have a problem with split queues, if it didn't cripple matchmaking for everyone. But as things are now I can't see matchmaking function with split queues.

[naterist]

No, i want to have a place were i can get some knew guys to learn the intracacies of mwo when respawns are in place, without having some unit between mrbc games showing up to roflstomp them into an uninstall.

Respawns add such a major difference to how you strategize and think about your mech, that qp, group or solo, CANNOT prepare you for. It adds layers you have to learn to understand in and react to in a moments notice. Trying to learn that, when you have just just a lance of people still learning, in IS mechs no less which are far less forgiving, and trying to do that while facing 12 mans of some of the best teams in the game whove been doing it for years?

Lol, good luck keeping a steady population. People may leave, but almost no one joins. You need a stepping stone, which is what a solo/smallgroup que does. From there they can get recruited by unit players who are dropping without a group at the time, or they can get a conversation with people who can show them how to do things. THEN they start getting into units, and group dropping and they get into the current system, prepped and aware of whats going on, so when they play kcom they know these basic things like how to shoot gens, and not to reinforce blindly at the very least, or theyre grouped with people who more likely than not can get them up to date ingame, as the current system is.

The difference there is that in this current system, them being grouped up with those people who can update them on tactics when their going against a top teir unit is kind of an average, to above average situation for a team, compared to the other possibilities with pugs. In my system, thats a worse case scenario.

[naterist]

Marquis, i think the difference would be the consolidated bukkits. Heck, i STRONGLY advocate that the 'loyalist event que' be kept on 24/7 with the small group/solo restriction, then give every sametech faction shifting treaty alliances handled by pgi, so that every factions new players can get in on it, with an in-universe explaination for why their fighting in faction 'x's war.

[Leggin Ho]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

No, i want to have a place were i can get some knew guys to learn the intracacies of mwo when respawns are in place, without having some unit between mrbc games showing up to roflstomp them into an uninstall.

Respawns add such a major difference to how you strategize and think about your mech, that qp, group or solo, CANNOT prepare you for. It adds layers you have to learn to understand in and react to in a moments notice. Trying to learn that, when you have just just a lance of people still learning, in IS mechs no less which are far less forgiving, and trying to do that while facing 12 mans of some of the best teams in the game whove been doing it for years?

Lol, good luck keeping a steady population. People may leave, but almost no one joins. You need a stepping stone, which is what a solo/smallgroup que does. From there they can get recruited by unit players who are dropping without a group at the time, or they can get a conversation with people who can show them how to do things. THEN they start getting into units, and group dropping and they get into the current system, prepped and aware of whats going on, so when they play kcom they know these basic things like how to shoot gens, and not to reinforce blindly at the very least, or theyre grouped with people who more likely than not can get them up to date ingame, as the current system is.

The difference there is that in this current system, them being grouped up with those people who can update them on tactics when their going against a top teir unit is kind of an average, to above average situation for a team, compared to the other possibilities with pugs. In my system, thats a worse case scenario.

So your suggesting that unit tagged players can drop in with non tagged players in their own little FP que. Two words for you that WILL happen if PGI is crazy enough to do that, just like it used to happen in QP before the solo and group ques..... Sync Drops and in a FP que folks in either faction KNOW they will get on the same team. That's the main reason most folks are trying to tell you it won't work. Been here since MWO started and have already seen that happen, you were not here for that and the salt flowed freely about it. FP was one answer as it was to be the Units palayground but PGI still allowed the non group players access to it.

Edited by Leggin Ho, 08 June 2017 - 10:47 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Marquis, i think the difference would be the consolidated bukkits. Heck, i STRONGLY advocate that the 'loyalist event que' be kept on 24/7 with the small group/solo restriction, then give every sametech faction shifting treaty alliances handled by pgi, so that every factions new players can get in on it, with an in-universe explaination for why their fighting in faction 'x's war.

My take on split queues (from being in the solo queue as a new FW player) is that we had higher population and a consolidated defense bucket (only the attack buckets were truly split)...but even in defense I couldn't get a lobby to ghost-drop in. Just searching... That should give folks pause who advocate for this. Again...not against the idea (I thought it was a wonderful idea at the time) if it doesn't screw up matchmaking. However, we have been down this road before and it didn't come close to working. If folks advocating for this weren't in the solo-queue back then, you are operating in the world of theory...players had asked for a solo-queue...got it...and it failed miserably. It wasn't a problem with the theory of it. It just didn't work for whatever reasons.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

No, i want to have a place were i can get some knew guys to learn the intracacies of mwo when respawns are in place, without having some unit between mrbc games showing up to roflstomp them into an uninstall.

Respawns add such a major difference to how you strategize and think about your mech, that qp, group or solo, CANNOT prepare you for. It adds layers you have to learn to understand in and react to in a moments notice. Trying to learn that, when you have just just a lance of people still learning, in IS mechs no less which are far less forgiving, and trying to do that while facing 12 mans of some of the best teams in the game whove been doing it for years?

Lol, good luck keeping a steady population. People may leave, but almost no one joins. You need a stepping stone, which is what a solo/smallgroup que does. From there they can get recruited by unit players who are dropping without a group at the time, or they can get a conversation with people who can show them how to do things. THEN they start getting into units, and group dropping and they get into the current system, prepped and aware of whats going on, so when they play kcom they know these basic things like how to shoot gens, and not to reinforce blindly at the very least, or theyre grouped with people who more likely than not can get them up to date ingame, as the current system is.

The difference there is that in this current system, them being grouped up with those people who can update them on tactics when their going against a top teir unit is kind of an average, to above average situation for a team, compared to the other possibilities with pugs. In my system, thats a worse case scenario.

This is quite honestly the worst part about quick play maps and modes being added to faction play.

Before when it was all siege all the time new units could drop into FP knowing it was siege and work on the fundamentals, grouping up, taking down the gates, pushing together, targeting the gens etc. You learned to gen rush, then you learned to fight and trade in counter attack. The modes stressed team work. And you could use the choke points to teach how firing lines are set up and over lapping fields of fire etc.

Of course, you had to accept that you were probably going to lose a lot while you learned how to play as a team first and then learned how to do things other than gen rush etc.

The QP modes with respawns are much more open and mush less forgiving for things like grouping up and not reinforcing etc.

[sub2000]

what about open lobby: where you can see people who can get into your team. you can bid yourself in the group and you can accept or avoid the challengers from the other side? The best would be to see not only those who are waiting but also are in the fight.
As a reference: somewhere before Tukayyd 3 I dropped two times with a big quite decent group doing attacking in the siege mode. Twice in a row. Both times easy victories. In the same time somebody else lost 3 times. If the teams are so against seal clubbing transparent lobby would be a perfect solution in such situations.

My first post on this forum was after a second in a row match against NU2, where other side kept doing stupid jokes and playing usual ppc-gauss combos. I had no idea how to deal against it then. All players were picked up one after another. And continously mocked. The game was simply denied to us. The idea that somebody can learn anything from such games is beyond idiotic.
I've learnt a lot during mine 4 months in MWO and 2.5m in FW (37k merc points) Most of the learning came playing pugging or in the small groups using LPG against small groups.
And there comes importnat point.
I don't want to play against jerks, I am sure I am not the only one. If PGI wants us in the mode they should provide us means to separate jerks from the rest, quite mature and very helpful MWO community.
old FW wales can pump as much as they want their upper lips with their usual mantras about gitgud but the fact remains: FW is empty outside events. If PGI doesn't ensure that at all stages most people trying the mode get positive experience it will remain empty. as I keep saying it is not the first game suffering from MM problems.

[sub2000]

Jaybles, on 08 June 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

The QP modes with respawns are much more open and mush less forgiving for things like grouping up and not reinforcing etc.

You need to coordinate and inform about reinforce joints, (remind about not reinforcing fighting group is a good start already).
the problem is the distance between re-spawn points and the ease to farm them.

[Guile Votoms]

Restricting Faction Play to "experienced" players would only result in one thing: even more abysmal waiting times.
The playerbase is small as it is and restricting anything or making the game even less accessible is definitely not the way to go.

What new players always needed is a PvE mode that gently eases them into the gameplay, so they can get some experience in a non-competetive environment where they aren't up against seasoned players (which they'll hopefully finally get when Mechwarrior 5 comes out). Making the lobby free-for-all is also a very important, way-overdue step in the right direction.

On top of all that, Faction Play is just not very well thought out and suffers from some really questionable design choices, which makes it doubly punishing for less experienced players. Many of these problems could be solved if Faction Play was re-designed into an actually meaningful game mode with various non-combat objectives, like this:

[James Argent]

Stop looking at FW population as a zero sum game. Splitting the queues will bring more people to the mode in the long run. Sure, at the very beginning there will be the division of the existing FW population, but as more people catch on and find FW accessible to them, they'll play it more. Many of these people will eventually group up and fill the ranks of the group queue.

[DarklightCA]

James Argent, on 08 June 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Stop looking at FW population as a zero sum game. Splitting the queues will bring more people to the mode in the long run. Sure, at the very beginning there will be the division of the existing FW population, but as more people catch on and find FW accessible to them, they'll play it more. Many of these people will eventually group up and fill the ranks of the group queue.

You are basing that on the assumption that there is a large population out there that simply doesn't play Faction Play for the sole purpose that there isn't a solo queue. Not the more likely reasons of why they don't play Faction Play.

Edited by DarklightCA, 08 June 2017 - 12:45 PM.

[Scyther]

There are quite obviously 17,000+ people out there who would play FP if it was decently rewarding and not a horrible experience for newer players.

[DarklightCA]

MadBadger, on 08 June 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

There are quite obviously 17,000+ people out there who would play FP if it was decently rewarding and not a horrible experience for newer players.

Faction Play is already rewarding. Between all the free stuff you get with LP rewards to planetary rewards, you get a lot of things for playing it. However Faction Play is not meant as a new player training ground.

There shouldn't be a new player experience because they shouldn't be allowed in Faction Play to begin with until they learn the game mechanics and gained enough mechs to bring a actual optimal deck.

[naterist]

DarklightCA, on 08 June 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

You are basing that on the assumption that there is a large population out there that simply doesn't play Faction Play for the sole purpose that there isn't a solo queue. Not the more likely reasons of why they don't play Faction Play.

there is. every post you see of people complaining after an event is 1 member of that group. notice those surge on here every event? and if we assume, like many have stated, only ~1/100 people come to these forums who play the game, then there are A LOT out there, waiting. outside of unit complainers, i think the only complaint is the roflstomps.

[DarklightCA]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

there is. every post you see of people complaining after an event is 1 member of that group. notice those surge on here every event? and if we assume, like many have stated, only ~1/100 people come to these forums who play the game, then there are A LOT out there, waiting. outside of unit complainers, i think the only complaint is the roflstomps.

Your basis behind that is the select individuals that have complained on the forums spread out over the years? You add them all together you'd get like what 100 complainers? Considering how many solo players there are in Faction Play, you'd think they would have a stronger voice then that.

Not to mention that when PGI added a split queue, you'd think they would stick with it longer than a couple days before jumping back into the group queue with the evil units.

[Scyther]

@DarkLightCA:
"I was pointing out that taking an already existing problem of long wait times due to low populations and splitting that population in half would only increase wait times."

...and a few posts later:

"There shouldn't be a new player experience because they shouldn't be allowed in Faction Play to begin with until they learn the game mechanics and gained enough mechs to bring a actual optimal deck."

So basically, we need those newer/solo players to shorten wait times, but we shouldn't be allowing them to play anyway. (Note: there is a difference between the words 'new' and 'newer'.)

The "let me have my stomping ground against pubbies" crowd doesn't seem to get that low populations is a direct result of not having a method to introduce newer players to FP in a graduated and progressive manner, and that all the BS "they can git gud or GTFO" rhetoric in the world isn't going to increase the popularity of FP one bit.

Basically, I see a group of people trying to find ways to increase the player inflow and retention in FP, and I see another group that says "Any change is bad change." I wonder which of those groups is spending their time stomping pubbies and patting themselves on the back that they're such awesome players?

[DarklightCA]

Well for starters you are putting words in my mouth because in no part did I say that solo players shouldn't be allowed to play. However being that Faction Play is an environment that that has no match maker, heavily impacted by groups and teamplay. It's not a environment that new players should be allowed to jump straight into without even the basic knowledge of the game mechanics.

Quote me as much as you like because excluding new players will have little effect on wait times and give them a much better oppertunity to learn the game mechanics without jumping straight into end game content. When they learn those mechanics, have gotten the chance to purchase actual mechs to build a actual optimized deck with, I have no problem with them jumping into Faction Play to reinforce the population and they will have a better time for it with a better understanding on the game.

Also I don't care for stomping pubbies but thanks for putting more words in my mouth. Considering my suggestion was to attract more units to the game mode and use groups as the base population so groups will always be fighting other groups and using the solo players as fillers to reinforce the groups in games so they will always have a coordinated team to play with. I don't understand how you can connect me with that just because I disagree with a split queue?

What I see is a group of players who want to farm LP without having to fight more coordinated players/teams. Right now there is no difference between Quick Play and Faction Play other than a 4 drop respawn and LP rewards. You can literally switch to quick play right now, get the exact same experience but in a more solo friendly environment.

Yet you want to turn Faction Play more into Quick Play because splitting the queues magically attracts players into it despite the fact the more likely reason people don't play it is because it's just a poorly designed mode that offers no playability. At this point I honestly hope PGI does add another split queue just so I can watch in amazement at how YET AGAIN reality gets in the way.

Edited by DarklightCA, 08 June 2017 - 02:34 PM.

[Commander A9]

Easy, fellas.

I'm thinking new players need to be put through a mandatory training mode which they have to successfully complete before they get the opportunity to play Faction Warfare. Nothing super hard: just drills about moving to locations quickly, hitting targets, identifying critical targets, and dueling an enemy...just like Mechwarrior 2's training sequences for Clans and with Deadeye.

Why those aren't in-game is really beyond me...sure, Captain Adams goes over the basics, but we need a training sequence that explicitly states 'This is the real deal, kid! Don't screw around!' like the first Call of Duty officer said to you when you went through Airborne School training (from 1998 on PC).

I don't advocate for anyone being disallowed from playing a game mode...but I do advocate that they need to be trained and they need to recognize that they will get ****** up if they don't pay attention.

Meanwhile, I also don't advocate for "leveling the playing field" by handicapping better players, or artificially propping up lower-skilled players. When you click "Fight Now," you assume the risk, and if you lose, so be it. Learn from a loss. We all did.

Edited by Commander A9, 08 June 2017 - 04:27 PM.

[Insanity09]

Main Problem: FW populations are low, and getting worse, for many reasons.

Solution?: The suggestion has been made, with several different variations, to divide the queue up, into solo vs group, to make a more initially friendly FW experience. (this is NOT the unit vs. non-unit queue apparently tried before.)
The idea, mainly, is that in the short term there might be an increase in the group FW queue wait times, but in the long term the hope is that more incoming population would improve the times.
Rebuttal: It is suggested that creating a solo/group divided queue for FW would result in experienced players 'sync' dropping so they could annihilate people in the FW solo q who were less accustomed to team play.
Response: Sync drops are a somewhat a chancy maneuver. With low population, yes, this absolutely would happen. With a high population, large numbers of drops at any given time... less successful as a way to game the system. Also, it seems like there should be easy ways to code and prevent this from happening repeatedly.
Moreover, it is kind of expected that more experienced FW players would also be dropping in the solo queue, hopefully in order to advise and help the less FW-able players to skill up, identifying candidates for moving to the more organized group queue, etc. (instead of just wanting the kill the greens).

Solution?: It has also been suggested that the FW queue be divided by 'skill', primarily PSR tier.
Rebuttal: There are numerous arguments against a tier based split. PSR is not a true measure of skill. FW matches do not contribute to PSR. Given 5 tiers, an even split does not seem possible. Grouping with friends of highly different tiers becomes impossible. Subject to abuse by alt account creation (effectively permanent, because FW matches don't change PSR).

Solution?: Implement more FW events (or incorporate more FW based goals into existing/upcoming events) to encourage people to play FW, or at least to give it a try.
Rebuttal: The large population of non-FW MWO players simply do not wish to play FW. Only certain units gain the MC rewards for tagging a planet (and the methodology behind how a units gets to tag a planet is suspect), and the rest of the rewards, given the 'difficulty' of FW play are simply not enticing enough.
Response: It is true that the faction reputation rewards are a bit of a grind. Even though the rewards for invasion mode tend to be much better, cbill-wise, than those of QP, the time investment an complexity seem to conceal that. Events give tangible, reasonable and achievable goals that clearly do get players to try FW. If FW did not tend to crush those trying it, the supposition is that more people would be inclined to continue playing it.
Further, there have been suggestions on potential changes to the FW reward system that might make it more attractive, in an obvious way, to a broader player base on a more regular, non-event driven basis (loyalty points, altering the reputation system, etc).


Again, the overarching problem is low FW population.
There are, in truth, MANY reasons for that.
The queue split idea, in all its forms, seems intended to help resolve that portion of the problem that seems to be based in the new(er) FW player getting crushed, in a non-learning way, by more organized teams. It might work, it might not.
If you have an alternate solution, or wish to highlight a different reason for the low FW pop, have at. I'm also fairly certain I may have missed some main suggested solutions, but the thread (and related ones) are getting to be too much to read in limited time. I'm happy to see solutions I've missed.
I always enjoy reading constructive posts on an obvious issue.

[Commander A9]

One problem at hand is Faction Warfare doesn't make PGI any money.

As a for-profit institution, PGI is going to prioritize developing content that makes them quick cash.

Like the mech packs.

PGI got the veteran's money and threw CW at them to keep them entertained when the grizzled old vets lost faith in PGI.

So...new maps for CW doesn't make PGI any money...so I don't forsee anything new coming to CW (except Incursion and weighted game modes, god forbid).

Edited by Commander A9, 08 June 2017 - 04:33 PM.