60 replies to this topic

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Mad Porthos, on 14 June 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Plenty of higher skilled/higher experienced players who are tier 1 or 2 will go down with less than 100 damage, when in queue play. There are pretty valid reasons, not to be an apologist - the primary of which is that no matter how good you are in steering your mech, aiming or even positioning, you cannot always guess where the enemy will come from so you may end up out in front of 5 players, some of whom are actually quite skilled who cut you down with concentrated alphas. There might be those who argue they are Tier 1 or 2 and that would never happen to them, but they are not being honest with themselves... it's easy to forget that it happens when you actually ARE Tier 1 or 2 and only play with your group of similiarly skilled, familiar players in FP and group queues. In those grouped situations you can reliably know you have someone backing your play or that similiarly indoctrinated players are nearby, will focus and call targets and that when contacts are made, aggression will be the response.

That Tier 1 or Tier 2 who dropped into queue play and has no one at all in the group with him may be moving in a "lance" with heavy mechs seeming to shadow and support him, but as he rounds a corner into an ambush, his instincts for aggression and knowing that he has 4 deadly mechs with him may lead him to alpha once, twice or step in aggressively to the brawl and start trying to take names and wreck face. Meanwhile those 4 heavies with him? They hit full stop, reverse and start peeking around the corner one at a time, dropping an artillery strike right into the midst of the enemy where that one Tier 1 guy is trying to brawl.

Boom. The moment of chaos that a good team might have exploited, if the Tier 1 and all 4 heavies with him had launched into combat, is lost as the artillery strike and the combined fire of the enemy team melts that one very skilled Tier 1 guy who applied the effective team tactic AT THE WRONG TIME, in queue play forgetting that individuals in queue play are timid and most definitely not a team. Stuff happens. Mistakes are made. But after that happens a few more times, the habit may be either to never play in queue play, or when you do... use everyone else as pug armor and mop up at the end, since nothing you say or do can get the coordination you need to use group tactics.

Some players, of any queue, try to use in the built in voip to coordinate a lance or two in the beginning of a match, but the salt is incredible at times if you attempt this. People are like, "Who died and made you General Kerensky? STFU, it will never work!". At least these are trying, what ever their queue and sometimes having a plan...any plan, is better than milling around and sniping around a corner, making bad trades until the enemy put the nails in your coffins.

This! Exactly -- the situation you describe happened to me yesterday. I am not Tier 1 but rather Tier 5 approaching Tier 4 and my stats are much improved since I started the game in February. In assaults my K/D ratio is now over 1 for Season 12 which is more than five times where it was for the first season. My W/L ratio is similar. My average match score is ranked about 3500 in assaults.
None of that is to brag because it's just average I think for the player base, but the point is I'm not terrible any longer. But I still get insta-gibbed when I am aggressive because I believe that my teammates are doing the same, but they are not. They may be close by, but they hide or hang back in the face of the enemy while I go out in a blaze of glory. Yes careful positioning and cover are important, but in my experience, massed aggression is the key to victory and staying alive .. hiding and sniping is a temporary tactic that always loses in the end.

Edited by DeloresAbernathy, 14 June 2017 - 06:43 PM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Medicine Man, on 14 June 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

I already knew that wins mattered the most. I think this stat is overweighted and that ranking should be more individualized. Win vs Loss is ultimately a team based stat which if you random pug a lot means you will have more losses no matter what. I shouldn't have my stats penalized because nobody goes to the yellow circle.

Yes winning is overweighted in tier progression, but it is also in my experience correlated with individual skill. My W/L ratio and K/D ratio have moved in tandem progressing upward and are usually about the same in value. That's so even though there are plenty of winning matches that I get zero kills and some losing matches that I do personally well. But over a large number of matches the two stats move together.

On a statistical note: In the single (non-group, public) PUG queue it is not possible that most players lose more than win because, except for rare ties, one side always wins and the other loses. Therefore the average w/l ratio across all players must be equal to 1. And everyone is playing singly and has the same chance of pulling a good or bad team. Pre-made groups don't play against singles. Therefore, over a large number of matches the only variable that is the same for a player in each match is the player himself ... therefore it makes sense to me that W/L ratio tracks K/D ratio over a large number of matches, as I found in my case.

[Atomic Hamster]

DeloresAbernathy, on 14 June 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Yes winning is overweighted in tier progression, but it is also in my experience correlated with individual skill. My W/L ratio and K/D ratio have moved in tandem progressing upward and are usually about the same in value. That's so even though there are plenty of winning matches that I get zero kills and some losing matches that I do personally well. But over a large number of matches the two stats move together.

On a statistical note: In the single (non-group, public) PUG queue it is not possible that most players lose more than win because, except for rare ties, one side always wins and the other loses. Therefore the average w/l ratio across all players must be equal to 1. And everyone is playing singly and has the same chance of pulling a good or bad team. Pre-made groups don't play against singles. Therefore, over a large number of matches the only variable that is the same for a player in each match is the player himself ... therefore it makes sense to me that W/L ratio tracks K/D ratio over a large number of matches, as I found in my case.

Well have played well over 100 matches and my K/D ratio is above 1 while my W/L ratio is well below 1. Maybe luck is also a factor?

After activating VOIP (only did this recently) have noticed that there are sometimes one or 2 'callers' that make a huge difference to the team's performance. Had a string of matches where the PUG team was getting calm, friendly advice over VOIP from people who obviously knew the maps - and every one was a win. Then had one match where the team just had someone shouting unhelpful orders and insults, calling everyone incompetent, resulting in a confused and demoralised team getting wiped. Trouble is I can imagine new players wanting to turn off VOIP altogether if they only had the latter experience, so they may never get to hear the 'good' callers.

Edited by Atomic Hamster, 18 June 2017 - 05:15 AM.

[Kubernetes]

If a guy is being obnoxious on VOIP you can block him. Hold down tab, click on the offender's name, and select Block.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Kubernetes, on 18 June 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

If a guy is being obnoxious on VOIP you can block him. Hold down tab, click on the offender's name, and select Block.

Yes but you can also report the player to PGI in the same manner with some fairly specific menu options for what you are complaining about. Although some are reluctant to do this or recommend it in fact it's a lot better for the community to do that. PGI will review the record and also will not take action unless there are multiple offenses. So you don't have to worry about getting someone banned all on your own. If it's truly offensive and you don't report it you are essentially giving someone permission to harass other players. Just blocking them implies that the conduct is ok .. but in fact it reduces the fun for others and discourages new players. Also blocking someone means you may not understand what's going on if the conversation relates to the game and you can't hear the whole thing.

[Atomic Hamster]

Well I didn't feel the guy wasn't being offensive enough to report, just quite unhelpful and rude - it was just such a huge contrast with the previous callers who were helpful and relaxed at the same time (you felt that even if we had lost they wouldn't have treated it like the end of the world). One confused and demoralised the team, the others helped and motivated the team.
I have blocked someone for not speaking English - no offence here, but whatever they say, it's never going to be useful if you can't understand it.

Edited by Atomic Hamster, 18 June 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Atomic Hamster, on 17 June 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well have played well over 100 matches and my K/D ratio is above 1 while my W/L ratio is well below 1. Maybe luck is also a factor?

After activating VOIP (only did this recently) have noticed that there are sometimes one or 2 'callers' that make a huge difference to the team's performance. Had a string of matches where the PUG team was getting calm, friendly advice over VOIP from people who obviously knew the maps - and every one was a win. Then had one match where the team just had someone shouting unhelpful orders and insults, calling everyone incompetent, resulting in a confused and demoralised team getting wiped. Trouble is I can imagine new players wanting to turn off VOIP altogether if they only had the latter experience, so they may never get to hear the 'good' callers.

Agree that a good drop caller is essential as long as the team is willing to follow. As in any anarchy we are all responsible for stepping up as leaders where one is needed and where we know enough. It also helps to support a good caller with a 10-4 or other encouragement and acknowledgement.

As to the stats and random elements I can only speak from my own sample -- but that sample is relatively large. Probably about 1000 matches since I started in February. I should say that if you have only 100 matches or so and have a K/D ration over 1 you have a natural talent for the game and are probably way above average for new players. It took me four months to get from less than 0.2 K/D ration to 1, now about 1.25 in Assaults where I play the most and do best. I don't have time to show the stats sense by season but I'm confident that W/L and K:D moved together over time. The difference between assaults and overall numbers shows this in my current states for Season 12 :

Overall (all matches): W/L: 0.99. K/D 0.99. Avg Match score: 261, Games: 238, Rank (K/D): 10,783

For Assault Mechs only: w/L: 1.19 K:D: 1.29; Avg. Match Score: 276; Games: 159; rank: 4039

PGI reports over 17,000 players participating are in the Tukkayud Faction play event so I estimate between 20,000 and 25,000 total ranked players (I was over 20,000 when I started so I know there's more than that.) Also by definition the average K/D ration should be approximately 1 because every kill equals a death for someone .. although I haven't done a mathematical proof of this, it seems logical and consistent with the rank numbers I'm getting.

Point is over a very large number of games (several times more than 100) it seems inevitable that random factors cancel eaglnotjer out and the common factor across all games of player effectiveness causes W/L to correlate with other factors.

Edited by DeloresAbernathy, 19 June 2017 - 05:01 AM.

[Horse Pryde]

I will follow anyone in the Que who is willing to step up and take charge. If you have a plan or a strategy that might work, i will help you try to accomplish it because "stay together and work as a team." seems to go up a notch when someone is leading the pack.
So if you have an idea even if its a crazy one, say it and go for it. I will be right behind you.

[Atomic Hamster]

DeloresAbernathy, on 19 June 2017 - 05:00 AM, said:

Agree that a good drop caller is essential as long as the team is willing to follow. As in any anarchy we are all responsible for stepping up as leaders where one is needed and where we know enough. It also helps to support a good caller with a 10-4 or other encouragement and acknowledgement.

As to the stats and random elements I can only speak from my own sample -- but that sample is relatively large. Probably about 1000 matches since I started in February. I should say that if you have only 100 matches or so and have a K/D ration over 1 you have a natural talent for the game and are probably way above average for new players. It took me four months to get from less than 0.2 K/D ration to 1, now about 1.25 in Assaults where I play the most and do best. I don't have time to show the stats sense by season but I'm confident that W/L and K:D moved together over time. The difference between assaults and overall numbers shows this in my current states for Season 12 :

When I said 'well over 100' I was guesstimating without checking my stats - have now checked and actually have around 1000 matches (!) since I started playing at the end of last year - doesn't feel like it as I tend to play in bursts with long breaks from the game. I guess I should know the maps like the back of my hand after that many matches, but I actually don't and still make bad mistakes re positioning etc. My KDR was hovering around 1 for quite a while (going up and down) and has started to slowly creep upwards (it's at 1.04 now but most of my preferred mechs are between 1.1 and 1.5), so hopefully the W/L will follow.

Haven't considered joining a unit mainly because of my sporadic/casual pattern of playing (I might stop playing for weeks at a time).

TBH those few games with good callers feel like a turning point, even though have had a few bad games since - am now paying more attention to what the both teams are doing rather than blindly following, even if no-one is calling (don't have a mic myself and not sure I would be confident using one if I did). Still a potato, but am learning at last.

Edited by Atomic Hamster, 19 June 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[General Solo]

Atomic Hamster, on 19 June 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

....... am now paying more attention to what the both teams are doing rather than blindly following......

That Sir, is one of the secrets to success, that many fail to grasp IMO.

MWO's got Talent

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 19 June 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[STBlitzkrieg]

I don't usually post here (or ever), but I feel like it's prudent to share a bit.

Between you and me, I have a no tolerance policy towards whiners and negative attitudes. I'd say my block list is about 7 or 8 times longer than my friends list. I'm here to have a good time and shoot things.

Regarding K/D, I still haven't recovered starting the game out with a stock Firebrand. Still not above 1, but in 2 months it went from .33 to .98, and went from T5 to T2. When I've played on my wife's account during the Linebacker event to secure her mech, it was surprising how timid players are. Hit with a couple AC shells? Better panic and fall off the platforms in Viridian Bog!

Anyways, advice given here is solid. You'll make it out of T5. My wife's making the climb in a Commando 2D as we speak.

[Tier5ForLife]

I like Taters.....


Tier 4 4Ever!

[Horse Pryde]

OZHomerOZ, on 19 June 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

That Sir, is one of the secrets to success, that many fail to grasp IMO.

MWO's got Talent

That and map awareness. The better you are at reading the mini map and knowing where your opponents are the better you will be. Even if you are just launching LRM's you'll know, "wait he is in cover" or "he is out in the open."
I cant stress enough that vary few players (myself included) know the maps as well as they should.

[Atomic Hamster]

Horse Pryde, on 21 June 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

That and map awareness. The better you are at reading the mini map and knowing where your opponents are the better you will be. Even if you are just launching LRM's you'll know, "wait he is in cover" or "he is out in the open."
I cant stress enough that vary few players (myself included) know the maps as well as they should.

I'd say that for me lack of map awareness is behind 80-90% of bad situations I get into. Not so much of a problem on simple maps like Caustic.
I wish you could make default minimap somewhat larger (I know you can expand it to fill the screen, but I'm inclined not to do that when in a firefight or on the move), as I already play on a small (laptop) screen, which makes the default minimap near unreadable for me.

Edited by Atomic Hamster, 22 June 2017 - 03:19 AM.

[Jay Sovereign]

Spoiler

This community is filled with sardonic and spiteful people, also people that want to restrict you from saying "learn to play."

Few acknowledge the fact that many tier 4 or 5 potatoes literally don't want advice and will freak out when you try to help them OR ignore you and intentionally do the opposite of what you said. Amazing! I agree that saying "learn to play" isn't the most constructive thing, but I am making a point about the opposite extreme ends of community behavior in this game. Half of it is trolls that don't want to listen, the other half is a repetitive vocal group which controls the game and also people's behaviors within that game.

They don't even realize that MWO is a squad based game - went over their head. On top of this,
I don't remember it used to being like this. The atmosphere used to be different, people actually were helpful and used their mics. But I guess the higher your tier goes the less fun the game gets and the more impossible it is getting any enjoyment from quickplay.

This game still lacks competent tutorials and stock mechs after all this time and coupled with the matchmaking system breeds frustration in everyone even the new players alike.

And now recent patches making small clan pulse lasers do 4 dmg? Time to give it a break

Edited by Jay Sovereign, 24 June 2017 - 10:22 AM.

[Husker Dude]

Kubernetes, on 18 June 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

If a guy is being obnoxious on VOIP you can block him. Hold down tab, click on the offender's name, and select Block.

DeloresAbernathy, on 18 June 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yes but you can also report the player to PGI in the same manner with some fairly specific menu options for what you are complaining about.

I know we all bag on PGI for any number of their flaws, but I actually really like how easy it is to report behavior in this game. It's real easy to open the scoreboard and click on a name, much easier than BF1, which I've been playing a bit lately, where you have to open an overlay, open the player's profile, then make a couple selections in the profile to report them. Particularly how in that game, there's WAY more toxic behavior to deal with.

[Rogue Jedi]

Jay Sovereign, on 23 June 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

This community is filled with sardonic, spiteful and triggered people that want to restrict you from saying "learn to play."

if you say learn to play that is generaly taken as (and usualy seems to be intended as) "you suck" or something simular, where as saying "if you twist you spred damage allowing you to suvive longer" or "zoom out and you will be able to see the other enemy" or "pressing R helps you find the best place to shoot the enemy" or "stopping while out in the open is a bad idea" or "try to practice firing on the move" or "try to stick with the team so the enemy do not focus fire on you" would all potentialy help, saying "L2P" without offering advice on how to improve does not.

[Serpentine Shel Serpentine]

Rogue Jedi, on 24 June 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

if you say learn to play that is generaly taken as (and usualy seems to be intended as) "you suck" or something simular, where as saying "if you twist you spred damage allowing you to suvive longer" or "zoom out and you will be able to see the other enemy" or "pressing R helps you find the best place to shoot the enemy" or "stopping while out in the open is a bad idea" or "try to practice firing on the move" or "try to stick with the team so the enemy do not focus fire on you" would all potentialy help, saying "L2P" without offering advice on how to improve does not.

This! So right. The game is not intended to be a forum for venting frustration or demeaning others. Constructive criticism however is great. I oppose statements like "you suck" or "learn to play" and my view has nothing to do with "trigger warnings" or my own feelings being hurt, and a lot to do with basic politeness and decorum. Would you play a pick up game of basketball with a group of strangers and start telling them "you suck" or "learn to play." Unless you were looking to get your *** kicked, I doubt it. The internet is not an excuse to do what is obviously wrong in person.

Edited by DeloresAbernathy, 24 June 2017 - 06:56 AM.

[Jay Sovereign]

Few acknowledge the fact that many tier 4 or 5 potatoes literally don't want advice and will freak out when you try to help them OR ignore you and intentionally do the opposite of what you said. I agree that saying "learn to play" isn't the most constructive thing, but I am making a point about the opposite extreme ends of community behavior in this game. Half of it is trolls that don't want to listen or even discuss the very game they are playing, the other half is a repetitive vocal group which controls the game and also people's behaviors within that game.

Tier 4 and 5 potatoes sometimes freak out or ignore as if they have no sound when you try to politely help them. So after 5-10 minutes trying to get someone to follow one order, you eventually give up and say "thanks for the loss" or "learn to play." If you want to get better, turn your sound up, turn your mic up, and LISTEN to other people.

At this point, since the game basically has a large skill gap and crappy tutorial, you have to research the game and discuss it with serious people on your own time if you want to get better. Half the tutorials you see online aren't useful in my opinion.

Spoiler

I rolled with a few groups and units, some of them competitive top tier. I haven't met many groups that take it seriously enough to try to communicate and treat new players or different people with respect. I haven't met many players who actually ask questions or ask for help. Like robots, they all follow the same hivemind playstyle over and over again and they don't even give a crap about if their teammates are dying. EVERY SINGLE group of players and units I have dropped with literally say between groupmembers that they will use the "stupid pugs" as shields. Everyone in every group I drop with says the same crap over and over again and it's just boring, platonic and superficial. There is never any refreshing communication, planning, discussion, gameplay tactics, etc. It's just "follow the formula, stupid pugs, lurm assaults, etc etc" And you really can't blame 'em cuz try as we might we can't get these people to stop dropping in Assaults that have only lurms equipped. Then when you try to work with them or help them, they ignore you.

Even winning nonstop in faction warfare with a top unit simply wasn't fun for me because of the crappy environment. I don't get enjoyment out of rolling over helpless people nonstop (in the same exact fashion, no variation in gameplay), and I don't get enjoyment out of making fun of newer players or people that are different. I actually get excited about the things I choose to take part in. Unfortunately, the MWO community seems to be the farthest thing from "excited" while actually playing - They may be excited about that police Urbie, though. They may be excited to bait you into an argument and then troll you some more, though.

The matchmaker is so bad that I have literally recorded myself quickplay dropping into matches in which I did not have to do anything in order for my team to win. I was able to doze off and look at scenery as my team slaughtered some people with no discussion, vocalization, planning, or tactics involved. It was a huge waste of my time. This happens often enough, and this isn't fun. It's always a stomp. This is why I try to not drop quickplay anymore.

So that's faction warfare and quickplay which are both losing their entertainment value. Competetive play is here, but that doesn't look fun because it's 8v8 with strict rules so it just looks like more work.

The community has given up. But if you're a tier 4 or 5 potato and want to get better, you eventually will if you stay strong, try your hardest, do research and run tests, discuss the game with other people, and ask questions. There is no get rich quick formula for getting good at a game. Half of the battle is literally in the mechlab. The other half of the battle is in teamwork and communication.

Edited by Jay Sovereign, 25 June 2017 - 01:16 AM.

[Jay Sovereign]

DeloresAbernathy, on 24 June 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

Would you play a pick up game of basketball with a group of strangers and start telling them "you suck" or "learn to play." Unless you were looking to get your *** kicked, I doubt it.

Are you sure you live in NYC? Because I have grown up here and lived here all my life and you don't sound like a New Yorker. Believe me, if you took a bunch of random people and threw them on basketball teams and forced them to play a game with teammates that don't listen against some other random team, I'm sure there would be a lot of frustration, cursing, trashtalking, taunting, maybe namecalling, arguments, fighting, and etc. But this all used to be considered normal when people could act like adults and get over things. -- If one team on the basketball courts challenged another group of people (that looked like a group of friends or some sort of team) to play a game, and this team they challenged was in fact so bad that the game was a waste of the challenger's time, then by all means I could picture the challenging team doing one of these things I have said above. They might burst out in laughter and say "damn, where'd these dudes learn to play!?" Does that make it right? Not necessarily.

Edited by Jay Sovereign, 24 June 2017 - 10:43 AM.