73 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

MadBadger, on 01 June 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Unless you split queues based on PSR and not unit tags, size of group, or whatever. Gets a bit harder to 'synch drop to smash pugs' when all those pugs are people of your tier.

1) There are not enough players for this.

2) Our lesson from split cue 1.0 is that weaker players want to be on the team of better players, so they made 1 man units to join the group cue. People don't actually want the weak and the strong separated, they want to be on a good team that wins.

[Scyther]

Nah, the lesson from FW: Phase 3 was that "if you show players for 2 years that CW isn't interesting in solo pugs, and they quit playing it, they won't suddenly show up in large numbers because you split the queues". I think Russ gave it, what, less than a week before deciding 'this doesn't work, changing it back'.

There was also the new Scout mode, Long Toms, changes to invasion corridors, etc. There was also the fact that the queues were split according to a method that simply didn't address the problem of teams and veterans against pugs and newer players. Further, they didn't run any event to encourage people to play it with split queues, they ran the event after merging them.

As usual, if PGI can find a way to sabotage their own self-interest, they will (and did). Doing it wrong once doesn't mean it won't work, it only means you learn from the experience and do it better.

[maxdest]

Emeraudes, on 01 June 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

/snip

Also splitting the queues was mentioned in many other posts, my opinion on the matter is still that it won't work.

My prediction of what will happen if queues are split again is:
1: PGI splits the queues, groups who queue to smash pugs, split to solo synch and smash pugs
2: Group queue loses a portion(not all) of their large groups, only small unevenly filled groups remain with some large groups.
3: Group queue cannot field 12 man teams effectively as some factions have potentially 6, 5 and 3 man groups queuing.
4: Those groups see that other players are solo synch dropping and do the same.
5: Some units synch drop with associated units(my unit has at least 4 other friendly units) all on the Same Faction Alignment.
6: Status quo.

Remember the idea is throttled, and would probably only do decent matching during an event. You wouldn't see a great increase in wait times, it would just take 30-60 secs extra to try and ensure that groups play groups and solo play solo when thier is a viable population.

Therefore excuses for sych dropping due to wait times are out.

The second thing that is needed, as I said in one of my replies is to class large group drops seperatly from small group/solo drops , with seperate rewards / ladders. Sure your unit could synch drop and own the PUGS, but you would have a score of squat all on the large group ladder ... and every good unit/player would think you are a rubbish skittle farming unit.


Really the whole idea is that groups play groups and pugs play pugs with some crossover, so it is more fun for all and PUG get a better impression of the mode. The thing is, its throttled so there is only a minor impact to wait times, at the benefit of giving far better matches during an event... and hopfully some longer term converts to FP (and therefore maybe some matchmaking on regular non event days).

Edited by maxdest, 01 June 2017 - 02:51 PM.

[maxdest]

Cato Zilks, on 01 June 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

1) There are not enough players for this.

2) Our lesson from split cue 1.0 is that weaker players want to be on the team of better players, so they made 1 man units to join the group cue. People don't actually want the weak and the strong separated, they want to be on a good team that wins.

I agree, no where near enough numbers... maybe not even in an event. PSR doesn't work propelly anyhow, as it is not zero sum... even I approach Tier 1 now, and I am firmly mediocre. Until they rework the system it is more or less worthless at this point.

However I differ in my views of why split queue 1.0 was a failure.

• The trial period was too short (I think less than a week?)
  
• There was no event to entice people to see how fun FP can be when more balanced (i.e. no large increase in pop)
  
• A lot of FW regulars are in units (even if not dropping in a group)
  
• Therefore pop on non unit queue was extreamly low for PUG (no invasions triggered at all on the night I played)
  
• And solo unit members unfamiliar with the mode whom tried out FW were used as filler for larger groups, potentially triggering stompings of a 12 man vs 12 1 man units (and lets face it, there are a lot of bad players whom are unit tagged).
  
• Therefore even more people were put off.
  
• Without the PUG as filler , even the unit queue began to get longer.
  
• Everyone complained as no/few invasions were triggering..
  
• Rollback

Basically it was not a great implementation.





In this idea the gates are throttled , and it works on group rather than unit tag. You wont see an adverse effect on queues... just more balanced matches and hopfully better player retention.

Edited by maxdest, 01 June 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Mycroft000]

I haven't made it through the whole thread, but all of the mentions of the split queues that happened about a year ago...that split was executed poorly. It should have been given the same divide that QP has of groups populate one queue, and solo players drop only against other solo players. I'm not certain how that would have fared, but I do know that making it a divide between Unit players, and Non Unit players did lead to numerous 1man units. Had it been the QP style divide of 12pugs vs 12pugs, or combinations of groups adding up to 12, I think the split would have been more successful. That's not to say it wouldn't have been rolled back anyway due to population, but it likely would have lasted longer.

[zortesh]

Splitting fw queues has several problems.

Not enough population = noone will get games so there wont be any population.
Sync dropping is too easy so splitting it by group vs solo doesn't work.
Splitting groups by unit vs non unit doesn't work, alot of people have solo units to have a tag, alot of unit players end up solo dropping, and many units aren't any better then pugs without a dropcaller, and dropcallers are not incredibly common.

Is there fixes for these problems?
sync dropping problem cant be fixed while its clans vs is... unless we abandoned the whole fw concept and just had quick-play and longplay.... I personally wouldn't mind.. I like the invasion modes and I don't care about a map I never look at.... but it'd enrage alot of the player base who want to claim planets for... whatever reason.

Other problems are sortof inherently unfixable.... mwo will never truly have the population to have a matchmaker in fp... its a sortof thing you can only play during events.

And large groups with coordinated dropdecks will almost always smash smaller or less coordinated groups... hell it happens in regular group play, its just less punishing as you only get farmed out once not 4 times in a row.

[maxdest]

zortesh, on 03 June 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

Splitting fw queues has several problems.

Not enough population = noone will get games so there wont be any population.

/snip

Please read the original post -

• The MM is throttled so as not to restrict play during low pop times
  
• Synch dropping would be set to not get you the unit rewards.

[Commander A9]

Splitting cues didn't solve the 'problem' of FW. It only caused more when freelancers realized they couldn't get matches.

So they made one-man units and kept dropping solo.

The trend of big teams versus pugs continued.

And will continue...until lessons are learned.

[maxdest]

Commander A9, on 03 June 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

Splitting cues didn't solve the 'problem' of FW. It only caused more when freelancers realized they couldn't get matches.

So they made one-man units and kept dropping solo.

The trend of big teams versus pugs continued.

And will continue...until lessons are learned.

Original queue split implementation was pants, this is different.
Please read the OP in full - this is throttled MM, and would result in less matches groups vs pug (when pop allowed), and provide an incentive for groups to play groups.

Edited by maxdest, 03 June 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[zortesh]

maxdest, on 03 June 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

Please read the original post -

• The MM is throttled so as not to restrict play during low pop times
  
• Synch dropping would be set to not get you the unit rewards.

ITS ALWAYS LOW POP TIMES ON FP.

It'd be interesting to try during an event but I'm pretty sure it'd make little difference once the event ended, even beyond being stomped by teams, the potatoes dislike fp for it requiring actual teamwork and you know using the W key.

I mean i solo dropped alot during the last event, and played with endless groups of potatoes who nonstop bicthed in the chat that you cannot possibly win on attack, and that this game mode was stupid etc... even when they were dropping against other groups of pure pug.

Its a gamemode that requires pushing, which requires trust in teammates, and the first lesson any solo player learns is you can't trust teammates.

[Commander A9]

Look, we all know any call to 'split cues' or separate people has the sole intention of preventing the big teams from playing together as a team.

I think I can speak for the major units when I say we will not accept any mechanic which divides us or prevents us from playing together. That's the whole point of the reason the teams were formed in the first place.

And we will not accept any kind of punishment or handicap leveled against our units for us playing together as members of our units in the first place.

I would rather uninstall this game and never look back than accept the notion that playing with my team is the wrong way to play Faction Warfare. I will never ever pug it up in Faction Warfare-I don't have to-because I am a member of a unit, and I prefer to keep it that way.

[DarklightCA]

MadBadger, on 01 June 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

Nah, the lesson from FW: Phase 3 was that "if you show players for 2 years that CW isn't interesting in solo pugs, and they quit playing it, they won't suddenly show up in large numbers because you split the queues". I think Russ gave it, what, less than a week before deciding 'this doesn't work, changing it back'.

There was also the new Scout mode, Long Toms, changes to invasion corridors, etc. There was also the fact that the queues were split according to a method that simply didn't address the problem of teams and veterans against pugs and newer players. Further, they didn't run any event to encourage people to play it with split queues, they ran the event after merging them.

As usual, if PGI can find a way to sabotage their own self-interest, they will (and did). Doing it wrong once doesn't mean it won't work, it only means you learn from the experience and do it better.

Solo player: PGI please create a solo queue, I can't farm LP rewards if I have to keep fighting organized teams using dark magic they call "teamwork".
PGI: I got you. I will create something that will allow you to solo queue and play with only other people that solo queue but I will also allow solo players the option to play in the grouped queue and fill grouped games.
Solo player: LOL, like anybody would want that.
Solo player 2-12: This place sucks, let's create one man units and go back to the grouped queue.
Solo player: Where did everybody go? Why can't I find any games.
PGI: Even though majority of the solo players went straight back to the grouped environment and the players that are left that are struggling to find a game is clear evidence that there is enough people interested in a pure solo queue. We should take this oppertunity to sabotoge them regardless by getting rid of the solo queue for no reason.

Makes sense to me man.

Edited by DarklightCA, 04 June 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[Scyther]

@DarkLightCA:
It took me a while to figure out what your point there was.

But then, I often can't figure out why PGI does things the way they do.

So you may be on to something. Or a PGI key decision maker. Or simply bonkers. Possibly all three.

Edited by MadBadger, 04 June 2017 - 01:20 PM.

[DarklightCA]

MadBadger, on 04 June 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

@DarkLightCA:
It took me a while to figure out what your point there was.

But then, I often can't figure out why PGI does things the way they do.

So you may be on to something. Or a PGI key decision maker. Or simply bonkers. Possibly all three.

My point was that despite the fact PGI designed something that wasn't an ideal solo queue, it had that same purpose. PGI gave players the option to remain in a solo queue or become fillers in a grouped queue and majority of the solo players opted to move back to the grouped queue within days or less of playing in the solo queue.

Point being that just because there are solo players out there who incorrectly chose to enter this environment and couldn't cope with the grouped aspect of it doesn't mean everybody who chooses to solo queue in Faction Play also shares that feeling.

PGI chose to close the queue because it did not have the population to support it, I like to think that they all left to be apart of more organized drops but the reality is more likely that they are only playing Faction Play for the LP rewards and only wanted a solo queue to more easily farm LP rewards without having to fight organized groups.

[maxdest]

Commander A9, on 04 June 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Look, we all know any call to 'split cues' or separate people has the sole intention of preventing the big teams from playing together as a team.

/snip

Not quite sure I understand your point.

Split queues with a throttle would not stop anyone playing as a unit, in any way... as the split is throttled. All it does is try and match larger groups against larger groups by taking an extra few seconds in high pop times (i.e, in events or maybe prime time weekends)... and if it takes too long then you end up still as per today.

[maxdest]

DarklightCA, on 04 June 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

/snip

NOTE: idea is not solo / group split. Idea is solo and small group / large group & small group split with throttling

Some people respond well to games with a high challenge, but for the majority being spawn camped to a 48-20 loss is a waste on 20 minutes, and they wont be back. If the game mode maintains low pop, then eventually all new development will stop and FP will finally die.

It's far better to try and encourage that new solos trying the mode are grouped with others in similar situation (or with smaller groups, which can act as a coach). Will you ever stop stomps due to teamwork ? nope ... but you should be trying to forge an environment to keep those players in the mode and learn the teamwork they need. As for the larger groups, they could look forwards to more competitive matches and less dross no challenge games.

Edited by maxdest, 04 June 2017 - 04:31 PM.

[DarklightCA]

maxdest, on 04 June 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

NOTE: idea is not solo / group split. Idea is solo and small group / large group & small group split with throttling

Some people respond well to games with a high challenge, but for the majority being spawn camped to a 48-20 loss is a waste on 20 minutes, and they wont be back. If the game mode maintains low pop, then eventually all new development will stop and FP will finally die.

It's far better to try and encourage that new solos trying the mode are grouped with others in similar situation (or with smaller groups, which can act as a coach). Will you ever stop stomps due to teamwork ? nope ... but you should be trying to forge an environment to keep those players in the mode and learn the teamwork they need. As for the larger groups, they could look forwards to more competitive matches and less dross no challenge games.

I already responded to your idea, my response wasn't directed at your idea. The whole high challenge part is the entire point of Faction Play though. if that's not a players cup of tea than Faction Play isn't something they should be playing anyways. In the words of PGI,

[Scyther]

Yes, because putting up a single text screen completely fixes the fact that they made a mistake from day 1 with their approach to FP, they are still making it, and it's never been a good idea.

1 text screen doesn't fix:
- No training
- No progression of development
- No familiarity with the maps or mode
- No unit recruitment exposure other than forums or the rare unit spam in QP
- The fact that there is no gateway for new players
- The fact that putting newbies up against organized units is and always will be a dumb idea, in every game, everywhere.

[TWIAFU]

MadBadger, on 05 June 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

Yes, because putting up a single text screen completely fixes the fact that they made a mistake from day 1 with their approach to FP, they are still making it, and it's never been a good idea.

1 text screen doesn't fix:
- No training
- No progression of development
- No familiarity with the maps or mode
- No unit recruitment exposure other than forums or the rare unit spam in QP
- The fact that there is no gateway for new players
- The fact that putting newbies up against organized units is and always will be a dumb idea, in every game, everywhere.

- Training you get from playing QP solo and QP Group.
- Development does need to be done to make CW far more appealing to Unit/Group
- There are only a few maps and one mode not learned from playing QP or Group.
- Good. Don't need or want recruitment spam in allchat
- Gating is needed.
- Gate the newbies and new players from playing until they are not new players or newbies.

[Scyther]

-You get FP training in QP drops? That's new, how do you do manage that?
-CW is so appealing that almost nobody plays it. Sure looks like it doesn't need a development path to me. Of course, any game mode that doesn't have a stream of new players being developed for it will die over time, but who cares about that?
-The maps/mode not learned in QP make up a pretty large portion of FP. Plus, you are simply wrong. Figure it out.
-The recruitment exposure would come from starting to play FP with unit member while progressing into FP. You can watch how they play and decide who you would like to be with. No spam required. If it's done right. Which apparently you don't want.
-Gating is needed, but a player development/progression system is somehow bad. Gating does the same thing as splitting queues, but somehow splitting queues is bad, gating is good. Gating a system that is already dying from lack of players is also somehow good. This is some pretty convoluted rationalizing, really.
-How does someone enter FP that he's never played before as 'not a newbie'? How does he find a decent unit when he's never played with them before?

I get that you, and many others, need a stream of new, untrained players entering FP so you can rack up easy wins. And you don't really want to see anything change that. I just don't get how you think that is good for FP as a viable game mode.